The Deatwatch RP is extremely biased towards the SM (aka the players). By those standards iconic 40K character like Ciaphas Cain never existed, because the moment Cain meets a chaos marine he's pulverized into pulp whitout any real chance going by said DW RP rules.
The Black Crusade game allows you to play both Chaos marines and human heretics- it tones down Marine wargear a little compared to Deathwatch- but it's still better than human wargear. A "Legion bolter" will pack a little more punch than a human bolter, and so forth.
And the armour is still comparable.
The Inquisitor game also has stats for both marines and humans- and Marines are even more durable than in Deathwatch.
The Cain book The Traitor's Hand has the Chaos marines wading through hundreds of humans with minimal damage- and it's just Cain is that good a swordsman (according to Amberley, he's one of the top swordsmen in the whole sector) that he is able to not get killed. Even then, he's either holding it off till Jurgen can shoot it, or stabbing a badly weakened Marine through an existing hole in the armour.
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Last edited by hamishspence : 09-29-2012 at 12:36 PM.
The Black Crusade game allows you to play both Chaos marines and human heretics- it tones down Marine wargear a little compared to Deathwatch- but it's still better than human wargear. A "Legion bolter" will pack a little more punch than a human bolter, and so forth.
And the armour is still comparable.
The Inquisitor game also has stats for both marines and humans- and Marines are even more durable than in Deathwatch.
The Cain book The Traitor's Hand has the Chaos marines wading through hundreds of humans with minimal damage- and it's just Cain is that good a swordsman (according to Amberley, he's one of the top swordsmen in the whole sector) that he is able to not get killed. Even then, he's either holding it off till Jurgen can shoot it, or stabbing a badly weakened Marine through an existing hole in the armour.
Both of which scenarios are quite believable and even likely in the various systems. (Damaged armour does get reduced armour value, anything other than medieval weaponry has a reasonable chance of getting through anyway, and certain weapons do penetrate a lot better.)
The Black Crusade does have some small mechanical differences/updates, but the armour and probably weapon differences are actually more intended to be because of the state of the armour used, with few of the systems still working and so on.
One thing that we haven't brought up is the Gargants, Stompas and assorted other super-mechs. They easily top Ultralisks in size and power, and usually at least one Gargant comes along with a Waaagh! along with lots of Stompas.
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Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes
Finding out that the ennui and cynicism of our times is not, after all, an unavoidable unreverseable fate does kind of throw your world-view off, potentially.
One thing that we haven't brought up is the Gargants, Stompas and assorted other super-mechs. They easily top Ultralisks in size and power, and usually at least one Gargant comes along with a Waaagh! along with lots of Stompas.
They don't usually come with the Rok-landing type of WAAAUGH though, because they can't make it to the surface intact. It was more-or-less universally agreed, even if by omission, that bringing along a Gargant/Titan-sized unit would wreak unimaginable havoc and likely singlehandedly win the war, because nothing in the Starcraft universe even approaches that scale of land unit. An Omegalisk miiiiight go head-to-head with a Gargant, but that's pretty much it, and they're so rare as to be practically nonexistent.
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Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
One thing that we haven't brought up is the Gargants, Stompas and assorted other super-mechs. They easily top Ultralisks in size and power, and usually at least one Gargant comes along with a Waaagh! along with lots of Stompas.
They probably would, except by the terms of the OP all we mainly have is lots of Roks with lots of boyz and whatever they can squeeze into aforementioned Roks.
I'm doubtful they could squeeze anything the size of gargants into a Rok, maybe a couple of light and medium class vehicles, but nothing on the heavy or super heavy scale.
Speaking of which, how do Orks get their heavy and super heavy gear from orbit onto the planet? Do they ship it down it bits and re-assemble on site or do they have massive transport ships that can drop the things intact?
Another thing that I've discovered - Roks can't travel through the Warp, so somewhere not too far away in-system, is the Orks' main base of operations.
An Omegalisk miiiiight go head-to-head with a Gargant, but that's pretty much it, and they're so rare as to be practically nonexistent.
That said, if you can crack your way through the armour, even if the Titan itself is mostly intact, you can swarm your way up inside it and make life very very difficult for the crew.
Which is seen in the Titan: Viviparous comic. Though they do end up repelling the attack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Oni
Speaking of which, how do Orks get their heavy and super heavy gear from orbit onto the planet? Do they ship it down it bits and re-assemble on site or do they have massive transport ships that can drop the things intact?
There's Landas- but they're not really Titan carriers. Might be able to manage a Stompa though.
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Last edited by hamishspence : 09-29-2012 at 02:41 PM.
They probably would, except by the terms of the OP all we mainly have is lots of Roks with lots of boyz and whatever they can squeeze into aforementioned Roks.
I'm doubtful they could squeeze anything the size of gargants into a Rok, maybe a couple of light and medium class vehicles, but nothing on the heavy or super heavy scale.
Speaking of which, how do Orks get their heavy and super heavy gear from orbit onto the planet? Do they ship it down it bits and re-assemble on site or do they have massive transport ships that can drop the things intact?
Another thing that I've discovered - Roks can't travel through the Warp, so somewhere not too far away in-system, is the Orks' main base of operations.
That, or sometimes they have big enough Tellyportas to get the super-heavies to the surface intact.
As for the Rok's lack of warp capability, I don't think that was intended as part of the fight, that's just a general idea of the scale of force the Orks can bring to bear.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
As for the Rok's lack of warp capability, I don't think that was intended as part of the fight, that's just a general idea of the scale of force the Orks can bring to bear.
Would probably be a case of:
Space Hulk drops in, Orks leave the hulk, arrive in the Belt, build engines on asteroids- mine asteroids for metal to build tanks and whatnot- start moving inward- and Space Hulk drops back into the warp.
Alternatively they just break bits off their Hulk and head inward on those.
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Last edited by hamishspence : 09-29-2012 at 02:45 PM.
There aren't hundreds of thousands of Chaos Marines.
What you are saying is a literal impossibility
That's just deuterio. He seems to hate W40k with a burning passion and injects himself in every debate involving 40k. It's not the first time it has happened
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Speaking of which, how do Orks get their heavy and super heavy gear from orbit onto the planet? Do they ship it down it bits and re-assemble on site or do they have massive transport ships that can drop the things intact?
Larger WAAAGH!s that have Kroozers can easily carry a dozen Stompas or smaller Gargants, to say nothing of Deff Dreads, Killa Kans, Battlewagons, etc. Considering Roks are just hollowed out asteroids, the limit on what it can carry would just be limited by it's size.
Hmmm how would Zerg fare against Ork Artillery? You could probably fit plenty of those on a Rok.
Another suggestion: Kill Team on XBLA and PSN; Space Marines fight through a Kroozer, hilarity ensues.
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Larger WAAAGH!s that have Kroozers can easily carry a dozen Stompas or smaller Gargants, to say nothing of Deff Dreads, Killa Kans, Battlewagons, etc. Considering Roks are just hollowed out asteroids, the limit on what it can carry would just be limited by it's size.
Hmmm how would Zerg fare against Ork Artillery? You could probably fit plenty of those on a Rok.
Given how well the Zerg fare against Siege Tanks, I'd say artillery is a problem for them.
However Orks are renowed for loving to get close and personal, and more important, they need strong leaders to keep them going togheter, even in the face of a clear common enemy.
There was actually a war where tyranids droped in an ork planet and were repeatedly crushed and forced into guerilla warfare, and even then things looked grim for the nids.
Until the tyranids realized the ork large numbers were just kept in check by a specific warboss. Using taunting hit-and-run tactics they lured said warboss in the open and killed him. The orks hordes proceeded to break in in-fighting and the nids picked them off one by one.
No special reason why the zergs couldn't do it, in particular because they're infamous for infiltration and dirty tricks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GolemsVoice
That's just deuterio. He seems to hate W40k with a burning passion and injects himself in every debate involving 40k. It's not the first time it has happened
No, I just happen to actually read the sources.
There's at least hundreds of chaos warbands out there, and each chaos warband is roughly the equal of a loyalist chapter. Since each chapter is around 1000 strong, then simple math confirms that yes, there's hundreds of thousands of chaos marines out there.
Last edited by deuterio12 : 09-30-2012 at 11:28 AM.
A Warband is not the size of a Loyalist chapter. Read the page you actually linked to...
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Some are not whole Chapters but simply warbands composed of a few tens or hundreds of Astartes drawn from the same original source and led by a charismatic commander or Chaos Lord.
tens or hundreds = 1,000 members of a Chapter-size unit
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According to the current records of the Inquisition's Ordo Malleus, approximately 50 Loyalist Chapters or elements of Loyalist Chapters have turned Renegade in the ten millennia since the Horus Heresy.
50 * 1000 = 50,000 maximum, if 50 whole chapters went rogue.
When you link to sources,make sure those sources don't actually contradict your claims next time.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombimode
Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D
Last edited by The Glyphstone : 09-30-2012 at 12:07 PM.
There's at least hundreds of chaos warbands out there, and each chaos warband is roughly the equal of a loyalist chapter. Since each chapter is around 1000 strong, then simple math confirms that yes, there's hundreds of thousands of chaos marines out there.
Where do you get the idea that every single warband is the equal of an entire loyalist chapter? This is patently not the case; among the World Eaters especially individual warbands are often no more than a dozen strong.
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They also weren't all at the same time at Armageddon, as was initially claimed. The Lexicanum article speaks of "huge numbers" but that includes every type of chaos worshiper, not only Marines.
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If there were actually "hundreds of thousands" of Marine Equivalents on a single planet, there would not have been a defeat/stalemate for Chaos.
Scratch that, there would not have been a war.
What? Zerglings crush Siege Tanks. Siege Mode is a issue though, but not seige tanks.
Siege tanks aren't artillery except in siege mode though, and it's the effects of the artillery that matter, since if you're getting close to the artillery then the artillery is hosed anyway, generally speaking.
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Originally Posted by Keld Denar
+3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
Siege tanks aren't artillery except in siege mode though, and it's the effects of the artillery that matter, since if you're getting close to the artillery then the artillery is hosed anyway, generally speaking.
Exactly. A line of siege tanks in siege mode hiding behind bunkers will obliterate entire swarms of zerg so fast its sickening. I cant even remember how many times I have seen a full zerg swarm attack an entrenched terran opponent only to be utterly wiped out at range without them ever coming close. Its pretty much the only time the zerg tactic of, "Keep marching forward till you eat them" fails utterly. There was a mission in the first starcraft, I think early on in the zerg campaign, where you play the zerg trying to attack the terran outpost. They have the high ground and bottleneck, with the cliff face covered by a solid amount of siege tanks and bunkers along the edges. For fun I built the maximum size swarm possible of ground troops, zergling and hydralisks, and sent them all up at once. 200 pop army. They didnt even make it to the base. Of course, I couldnt let that stand, so I then built about 7, 12 man squads of mutalisks and blotted out the sun. Think I lost two mutas before the entire base was leveled. :p
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Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama
Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
A Warband is not the size of a Loyalist chapter. Read the page you actually linked to...
tens or hundreds = 1,000 members of a Chapter-size unit
50 * 1000 = 50,000 maximum, if 50 whole chapters went rogue.
When you link to sources,make sure those sources don't actually contradict your claims next time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lexicanum
The Legions were massive armies, and the size of each could vary tremendously. A precise number was never truly achieved and maintained. Even during the Great Crusade, some Legions were very numerous, while others were not. The numbers would always vary with new recruits and inevitable battle-losses, and also important was the availability of potential recruits and the administrative skills of the Primarch and his officers.
You appear to be referring to Chapters of space marines, i.e. post-heresy legions broken apart by the changes made by rowboat girlyman (roboute guilliman) in the Codex Astartes.
Pre-Heresy Legions varied wildly in size but the average was 'about 10,000'. So depending on the specific size of the 20 Chaos Legions, it could have definitely involved hundreds of thousands of space marines AND daemons.
And yes. People fapping about space marines have spouted wild, wild numbers and fantasy scenarios and everything else that doesn't really jive with the technology level or the perceived results of the space marines. Portraying guardsmen as weak and inferior and useless and 5-10 space marines being able to single-handedly wipe out xenos fleets and the whole imperium being held together by tiny numbers of space marines is a common 'view' of the setting.
That said, it makes much less sense and is less of a working setting and more of a weird power fantasy about big armoured men who are soooo cool and strong than anything else.
You can have whatever opinion you want about the Marine Equivalents in the W40K setting. Realistically, I agree superheavy infantry is not a realistic option in future-warfare.
But the fact remains that if you have "hundreds of thousands" of Marine Equivalents on a single planet, plus their lesser/daemonic cohorts that round out their army, there is no Imperial Guard force in the galaxy that would stand a chance.
You can have whatever opinion you want about the Marine Equivalents in the W40K setting. Realistically, I agree superheavy infantry is not a realistic option in future-warfare.
But the fact remains that if you have "hundreds of thousands" of Marine Equivalents on a single planet, plus their lesser/daemonic cohorts that round out their army, there is no Imperial Guard force in the galaxy that would stand a chance.
...And a single Exterminatus would eliminate every chaos space marine in existence. The Imperium could lose almost any world (excluding maybe Earth and Mars) and still make a net profit if it meant the elimination of an entire enemy faction. Cadia could send most of its forces elsewhere as there wouldn't be any more Black Crusades. Entire chapters could be redevoted to the rising Necron and Tyranid threats.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes
Finding out that the ennui and cynicism of our times is not, after all, an unavoidable unreverseable fate does kind of throw your world-view off, potentially.
You appear to be referring to Chapters of space marines, i.e. post-heresy legions broken apart by the changes made by rowboat girlyman (roboute guilliman) in the Codex Astartes.
Pre-Heresy Legions varied wildly in size but the average was 'about 10,000'. So depending on the specific size of the 20 Chaos Legions, it could have definitely involved hundreds of thousands of space marines AND daemons.
There were 9 Chaos Legions, not 20...I have no idea where you got that number.
And yes, I was referring to Chapters, because the Lexicanum says that 50 Chapters or contingents of Chapters have gone rogue since the Heresy...so the forces of Chaos have had an absolute maximum of 50,000 reinforcements, and it's doubtful all of them survived up to the current day. Only one of the original Traitor Legions - the World Eaters - were present on Armageddon in force, led by Angron the Demon Primarch.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombimode
Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D
Last edited by The Glyphstone : 10-02-2012 at 12:57 AM.
Strictly, they aren't limited to Chapters- small groups of Marines (companies etc) have gone renegade as well.
Some Legions have demonstrated the ability to implant new recruits (Iron warriors for example)- but I'm not sure if this applies to the World Eaters.
After Istvann III there were on the order of 80,000 World Eaters according to the Forgeworld book "Horus Heresy: Betrayal" (legions averaged 100,000, not 10,000)
By the 41st Millennium there's probably somewhat less- even with them recruiting renegades.
Kharn shattered the World Eaters Legion into warbands at some point not too long after the Heresy- so it's possible Angron didn't have access to the whole Legion- just many of its warbands.
All in all I'd say you're probably looking at a few thousand World Eaters- but a lot less than 100,000, on Armageddon.
If the orks were to fight against Zerg, it would depend on if it were Zerg lead by cerebrates and also if the overmind was still alive, or Zerg lead by brood mothers, who were created by the Queen of Blades.
The cerebrates have shown to be very good generals (they're giant brains, after all). They intercept enemy radio transmissions, devise new strategies, can communicate with each another, and are all psionically connected to the overmind, who will ensure that the cerebrates will be reformed if slain, so that their valuable knowledge will not be lost.
Under their command, the zerg could easily win against the ork hordes, unless they were lead by some extremely sneaky and experienced blood axe-warboss, who already knows how Zerg fight.
The starcraft 2-brood mothers on the other hand are too inexperienced and don't have really that much combat experience, being more focused on breeding new zerg-strains. Sure, new deadly zerg-thingies can also win the day, but without the knowledge to use them effectively, the queens and brood mothers just aren't that dangerous overall.
If it's a decent sized WAAAGH then we can assume that the Warboss is also of decent skill.
I mean the size of the WAAAGH is basically determined by how strong or skilled the Warboss is.
As per the OP the Zerg do not have any Cerebrates or the Overmind. So it'd likely be a Broodmother since giving the Zerg Kerrigan is like giving the Orks one of their special characters.
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Last edited by Forum Explorer : 10-02-2012 at 11:24 AM.
There were 9 Chaos Legions, not 20...I have no idea where you got that number.
And yes, I was referring to Chapters, because the Lexicanum says that 50 Chapters or contingents of Chapters have gone rogue since the Heresy...so the forces of Chaos have had an absolute maximum of 50,000 reinforcements, and it's doubtful all of them survived up to the current day. Only one of the original Traitor Legions - the World Eaters - were present on Armageddon in force, led by Angron the Demon Primarch.
Chaos controls various areas and the chaos space marine legions recruit from worlds in those areas, much as space marines recruit from worlds in imperium controlled space.
The imperium has more space that it controls, but it doesn't have access to daemonic resources and so has to spend more time and energy fighting off things like necrons and orks.
But chaos fights itself more than the imperium, so it's a bit of a wash.
That said apparently the Eye of Terror is a very large region of folded space and daemon-worlds, so the actual amount of chaos space marines appears to be 'any'.
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sacrificing minions: is there any promblem it CAN'T solve?
