A challenge to the playground

[rockdeworld]

Originally Posted by kardar233

You are incorrect. The d2 Crusader does, in fact deal an infinite amount of damage, as the loop happens all at once (when damage is calculated). Lightning Maces are similar.

A loop such as GAF/Sanctum Spell is only arbitrarily high.

I think he means because infinity minus infinity is undefined.

Also, I call shenanigans on the seraphims knowing about you appearing in the past a week before you do.

And possibly on the rest of this thread, for good measure.

[Harry]

A few thing that stops a lot of tricks.

First it has TWO sets of HP. The first one is for infinite damage. Once you get that you have 627,710,173,312,402,500,000,004,405,085,855,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000 hp left.


Second Evil Eye (Ex): Opponents of the Mortiverse suffer a -12 luck penalty to armor class, attack rolls, checks of any kind, damage rolls, DCs, initiative, saves, SR, and TR Furthermore, Mortiverse may choose the die RESULTS for ALL creatures within its divine aura. This effect has a range of 63,382,530,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,400 ft and there is no save.


Third Generate Spawn (Su): As a standard action at will, the Mortiverse may generate 52,818,775,000,000,000,000,000,000,000d10 spawn statistically equivalent to itself, only the spawn lack the ability to generate other spawn. Each spawn generated subtracts its hp from the Mortiverse’s total, although having infinite hp renders this moot. The Mortiverse may always choose to generate fewer spawn than a die roll indicates. Under normal circumstances, Mortiverse will choose to generate spawn during any round in which it is not actually fighting. Spawn remain in constant mental contact with the Mortiverse. Distance is not a factor, but communication cannot cross planar boundaries. Each spawn is capable f independent action and can even gain experience (good luck with that), but it obeys the commands of the Mortiverse without question. The Mortiverse may only command three spawn at a time, although it may create more if it so wishes. Free spawn may serve the Mortiverse willingly, but are truly autonomous entities. When the Mortiverse is slain, all its spawn are freed. A free spawn has a 5% chance to become a new Mortiverse.

This combined with one time lord ability (forgot its name) always gives it the best results when something has to do with chance, no matter what.

This means infinite mortiverses.

Fourth cosmic string. Basically you have to be physically bigger then it to kill it.

Fifth Immunities (Ex): ability damage, ability drain, anything requiring a Fortitude save unless it affects objects, critical hits, death effects, death from massive damage, disease, energy damage, energy drain, fatigue, MAGIC from this universe, mind-affecting effects, natural effects, non-epic magic, paralysis, PERMANENT DESTRUCTION, petrification, Physical INJURY by matter from this universe, poison, polymorphing, stunning, wounding.

Sixth Abrogate this takes away your two strongest abilities. Combined with spawn this can take away all your abilities.

Seventh Mime Ability gives the mortiverse your two strongest abilities combined with abrogate and spawn, this basically makes it. It+you vs you(with no class levels)

Eight Wish (Su): At will, Mortiverse can duplicate the effects of a wish at caster level 1,584,563,250,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Save DC 39,614,081,250,000,000,000,000,000,117. This is a supernatural ability.

Do I have to explain?

Ninth innocence you can NOT attack it first.

[Spuddles]

Interesting. The mortiverse is basically the DM. "Can I use a teleporting through time dusk giant cheating epic magic wielding level 20 kaorti in a planar bubble?" "yes, but the mort shows up first and you cease to exist."

Basically anything that comes close to threatening this thing gets unmade with time travel. The only way to win is not to play.

[Eugenides]

Originally Posted by Spuddles

Interesting. The mortiverse is basically the DM. "Can I use a teleporting through time dusk giant cheating epic magic wielding level 20 kaorti in a planar bubble?" "yes, but the mort shows up first and you cease to exist."

Basically anything that comes close to threatening this thing gets unmade with time travel. The only way to win is not to play.

Yeah, I'm calling shenanigans. It's the stat block of DM fiat. Honestly, it decides all your die rolls (so any time you roll a die, it's a natural one and critical failure) and no matter what you do, it does everything first. You're not supposed to beat it.

Also, anecdote:
When I was very young I used to play AD&D with my parents, and they let me DM, once. They never did again because I hadn't learned the concept that I wasn't a player, so I took advantage of my infinite power and would wipe the floor with all the players by throwing things that were way too powerful at the party. This seems like something that 6-year old me would have cooked up: "It's got infinnity this and infinnity that, and no you can't do that because it does it first and if you kill it, it kills you instead and if you get anywhere near it you lose."

I mean, it even has arbitrary numbers like a 6-year old would produce: "39,614,081,250,000,000,000,000,000,117." That number is so arbitrarily large, yet at the same time so ridiculously specific.

[olentu]

Originally Posted by Eugenides

Yeah, I'm calling shenanigans. It's the stat block of DM fiat. Honestly, it decides all your die rolls (so any time you roll a die, it's a natural one and critical failure) and no matter what you do, it does everything first. You're not supposed to beat it.

Also, anecdote:
When I was very young I used to play AD&D with my parents, and they let me DM, once. They never did again because I hadn't learned the concept that I wasn't a player, so I took advantage of my infinite power and would wipe the floor with all the players by throwing things that were way too powerful at the party. This seems like something that 6-year old me would have cooked up: "It's got infinnity this and infinnity that, and no you can't do that because it does it first and if you kill it, it kills you instead and if you get anywhere near it you lose."

I mean, it even has arbitrary numbers like a 6-year old would produce: "39,614,081,250,000,000,000,000,000,117." That number is so arbitrarily large, yet at the same time so ridiculously specific.

Huh, are those abilities in their current form actually explicitly spelled out in said handbook. If not you could always just argue back DM fiat with an ad hoc modifier to an epic spell. And since the modifier has not yet been made you are sure to win if you word it correctly.

[Eugenides]

Originally Posted by olentu

Huh, are those abilities in their current form actually explicitly spelled out in said handbook. If not you could always just argue back DM fiat with an ad hoc modifier to an epic spell. And since the modifier has not yet been made you are sure to win if you word it correctly.

Yeah, they are apparently specifically spelled out. Harry's post right above mine has all the relevant data and more.

[Harry]

Are we done here? Has the mortiverse won? Or does someone want to try there hand at this thing?

[olentu]

Originally Posted by Eugenides

Yeah, they are apparently specifically spelled out. Harry's post right above mine has all the relevant data and more.

That's not really the question that I asked, but if all those abilities do exist then that just makes things easier. If the abilities exist then they can be granted.

[Aharon]

It hasn't won, I go to Sigil and send out Simulacrums that laugh at it for all eternity. When it finally gets pissed and comes to Sigil, the Lady, the stats of which are more vague, but implied to be extremely high, destroys it

[Harry]

Ah So the lady is just going to let you stay in sigil attack a powerful being that may fight her? Why would she do this? I don't think she likes you that much, besides the motto verse has infinite bluff and diplomacy. He can make the lady worship him

[Aharon]

But she has Diplomacy: Undefined, so DM adjudication is needed to decide wether the Mortiverse can do that. I bribe the DM with a pizza out of game to win

[killianh]

If this thing is essentially DM fiat incarnate then I would assume the only way to truly beat it would be to flip the game board. The weak points I see that can be exploited are that the best of its immunities are in the form of "from this universe" so there are a few remaining options that we can use via RAW even. The first would be to open the far realm (which is noted to be infinite and outside of the universe, and wants to asimilate this universe(which would mean killing mort)) nigh infinite vs. infinite would keep both occupied forever, and since an encounter is considered resolved once a threat has been dealt with you can call this one over as mort has stats; the far realm is purely infinite with (being a universe) similar abilities in conjunction with the fact that the far realm doesn't have to follow the rules of the mortiverse and could render most of its influence moot.

In order to actually open said far realm (since mort is always watching I'll assume) what needs to be done is Pandorum from elder evils needs to be freed. He is a being "made from the spaces between the universe" so is also able to harm mort, and has no stat block for his completed form, though it is said that his mission is to kill the gods and that no force from this universe can stop him in his completed form. No force means mort can't do jack to stop him, and eventually he will either go and kill mort (as mort is a force of this universe and thus RAW cannot stop him) or realise that opening the far realm would be the only way to actually kill him and things will go from there.

As for how to get pandorum free without mort stopping you...I'll leave that to the posters that follow. More or less I simply wanted to show that there are ways to stop even the might of DM fiat, and it's all thanks to RAW source.

P.S. I would assume that homebrew would be outside of the normal D&D universe so simply making a homebrew that grants everything mort has and more could be an easy way of ending this one.

[Spuddles]

Originally Posted by killianh

If this thing is essentially DM fiat incarnate then I would assume the only way to truly beat it would be to flip the game board. The weak points I see that can be exploited are that the best of its immunities are in the form of "from this universe" so there are a few remaining options that we can use via RAW even. The first would be to open the far realm (which is noted to be infinite and outside of the universe, and wants to asimilate this universe(which would mean killing mort)) nigh infinite vs. infinite would keep both occupied forever, and since an encounter is considered resolved once a threat has been dealt with you can call this one over as mort has stats; the far realm is purely infinite with (being a universe) similar abilities in conjunction with the fact that the far realm doesn't have to follow the rules of the mortiverse and could render most of its influence moot.

In order to actually open said far realm (since mort is always watching I'll assume) what needs to be done is Pandorum from elder evils needs to be freed. He is a being "made from the spaces between the universe" so is also able to harm mort, and has no stat block for his completed form, though it is said that his mission is to kill the gods and that no force from this universe can stop him in his completed form. No force means mort can't do jack to stop him, and eventually he will either go and kill mort (as mort is a force of this universe and thus RAW cannot stop him) or realise that opening the far realm would be the only way to actually kill him and things will go from there.

As for how to get pandorum free without mort stopping you...I'll leave that to the posters that follow. More or less I simply wanted to show that there are ways to stop even the might of DM fiat, and it's all thanks to RAW source.

P.S. I would assume that homebrew would be outside of the normal D&D universe so simply making a homebrew that grants everything mort has and more could be an easy way of ending this one.

With over 9000 divine ranks, the Mortiverse is aware of your plans before your ancestors evolved.

It's basically pun-pun with a statblock.

[killianh]

Originally Posted by Spuddles

With over 9000 divine ranks, the Mortiverse is aware of your plans before your ancestors evolved.

It's basically pun-pun with a statblock.

Exactly. Like fighting pun-pun this assumes that you'll actually get the chance to try rather than having your entire race blotted from existence the microsecond the thought begins to cross your mind. If you can't even try then it's simply a DM attempting to justify fiat by adding a stat block to said DM fiat. If it weren't for the ability that lets it stop you before you think of starting it might be possible.

The only way to beat this thing is to use a character from outside of the game's universe that is unaffected by the laws of physics or the universe at large. in other words you need to pour a cup of bleach on the DM laptop while mort's sheet is open and call it a night.

[Eugenides]

Originally Posted by killianh

The only way to beat this thing is to use a character from outside of the game's universe that is unaffected by the laws of physics or the universe at large. in other words you need to pour a cup of bleach on the DM laptop while mort's sheet is open and call it a night.

Yup. I'm basically at this point. Harry keeps saying "Has the Mort won?" Honestly, it has because any time you think of anything, we always come back to the part where due to its divine rank it knows as soon as you think of something and kills you. This is the basic version of making something, saying you can't kill it, and then acting surprised when people can't kill it.

[Spuddles]

Originally Posted by killianh

Exactly. Like fighting pun-pun this assumes that you'll actually get the chance to try rather than having your entire race blotted from existence the microsecond the thought begins to cross your mind. If you can't even try then it's simply a DM attempting to justify fiat by adding a stat block to said DM fiat. If it weren't for the ability that lets it stop you before you think of starting it might be possible.

The only way to beat this thing is to use a character from outside of the game's universe that is unaffected by the laws of physics or the universe at large. in other words you need to pour a cup of bleach on the DM laptop while mort's sheet is open and call it a night.

You're going to want tetrochloroethylene if it's in pencil, acetone if it's permanent marker, or water if it's pen.

/solvent optimization

[killianh]

Originally Posted by Eugenides

Yup. I'm basically at this point. Harry keeps saying "Has the Mort won?" Honestly, it has because any time you think of anything, we always come back to the part where due to its divine rank it knows as soon as you think of something and kills you. This is the basic version of making something, saying you can't kill it, and then acting surprised when people can't kill it.

I think an even more basic version would be:

DM Fiat
HP 1, BAB 0, Fort 0, Ref 0 Will 0, 10 in all stats

Special abilities: Knowledge of all, unstoppable
Special attacks: blot from existence

Knowledge of all: if anyone, anywhere, anywhen thinks about anything DMF doesn't like DMF knows about it immediately.

Unstoppable: DMF is immune to everything

Blot from existence: if DMF doesn't like you, you are removed from time or some horrible accident happens to you while you travel, usually involving your immunities becoming moot and everything you thought you knew about your abilities being wrong

[killianh]

Originally Posted by Spuddles

You're going to want tetrochloroethylene if it's in pencil, acetone if it's permanent marker, or water if it's pen.

/solvent optimization

can I put this in my sig?

[DementedFellow]

Originally Posted by Harry

Flight (Ex): The Mortiverse does not fly; rather, it is not subject to gravity in the same way other creatures are. It can move in any direction through any medium, disintegrating any solid matter in its path.



Vortex (Ex): Normally the Mortiverse somehow insulates itself from the environment and dampens its gravitational field, otherwise it would be at the center of a storm of wind and flying matter. If it chooses, however, the Mortiverse can suspend this insulation, causing an astronomical attraction to it. This vortex can suck all the air or other gases from a (10^795,001,780,500,000,000,000,000,000)-ft cube in a single round. Furthermore, all creatures within 10^795,001,780,500,000,000,000,000,000 ft of the Mortiverse who fail a DC 831,895,706,300,000,000,000,000,001,091 Reflex save are pulled into contact with the Mortiverse, taking damage equal to the Mortiverse's base slam damage.

Wish (Su): At will, Mortiverse can duplicate the effects of a wish at caster level 1,584,563,250,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Save DC 39,614,081,250,000,000,000,000,000,117. This is a supernatural ability.

Good luck playground, good luck.

Three ideas

First exploit its flight mechanic. It is huge. Get it to somehow trip over itself and it will dissolve itself.

Secondly find some way to exploit the Vortex ability

Thirdly exploit the wish mechanic. Make it read Twilight and it will wish it was dead.

[Spuddles]

Originally Posted by killianh

can I put this in my sig?

Of course.

[rweird]

Originally Posted by Harry

A few thing that stops a lot of tricks.

First it has TWO sets of HP. The first one is for infinite damage. Once you get that you have 627,710,173,312,402,500,000,004,405,085,855,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000 hp left.

The same is true with his damage expression, D2 him, then D2 him again.

Second Evil Eye (Ex): Opponents of the Mortiverse suffer a -12 luck penalty to armor class, attack rolls, checks of any kind, damage rolls, DCs, initiative, saves, SR, and TR Furthermore, Mortiverse may choose the die RESULTS for ALL creatures within its divine aura. This effect has a range of 63,382,530,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,400 ft and there is no save.

Clones of him should equalize that, or Abrogate will take all those abilities away, Abrogate first.

Third Generate Spawn (Su): As a standard action at will, the Mortiverse may generate 52,818,775,000,000,000,000,000,000,000d10 spawn statistically equivalent to itself, only the spawn lack the ability to generate other spawn. Each spawn generated subtracts its hp from the Mortiverse’s total, although having infinite hp renders this moot. The Mortiverse may always choose to generate fewer spawn than a die roll indicates. Under normal circumstances, Mortiverse will choose to generate spawn during any round in which it is not actually fighting. Spawn remain in constant mental contact with the Mortiverse. Distance is not a factor, but communication cannot cross planar boundaries. Each spawn is capable f independent action and can even gain experience (good luck with that), but it obeys the commands of the Mortiverse without question. The Mortiverse may only command three spawn at a time, although it may create more if it so wishes. Free spawn may serve the Mortiverse willingly, but are truly autonomous entities. When the Mortiverse is slain, all its spawn are freed. A free spawn has a 5% chance to become a new Mortiverse.

This combined with one time lord ability (forgot its name) always gives it the best results when something has to do with chance, no matter what.

This means infinite mortiverses.

You never said Mortiverse has a chance to prepare, so until he enters combat, only 1. I suppose you could use Aura of Chaos+Dvr 16+ of your Alex to create infinite clones of him, and then you can make Alexes of all the clones.

Fourth cosmic string. Basically you have to be physically bigger then it to kill it.

Thats why you make an Alex of him, then you give it a hat.

Fifth Immunities (Ex): ability damage, ability drain, anything requiring a Fortitude save unless it affects objects, critical hits, death effects, death from massive damage, disease, energy damage, energy drain, fatigue, MAGIC from this universe, mind-affecting effects, natural effects, non-epic magic, paralysis, PERMANENT DESTRUCTION, petrification, Physical INJURY by matter from this universe, poison, polymorphing, stunning, wounding.

Just repeatedly destroy it for an really long time and repeat.

Sixth Abrogate this takes away your two strongest abilities. Combined with spawn this can take away all your abilities.

You don't fight it personally. Your clones of him Abrogate him.

Seventh Mime Ability gives the mortiverse your two strongest abilities combined with abrogate and spawn, this basically makes it. It+you vs you(with no class levels)

True, thats why you don't fight it personally

Eight Wish (Su): At will, Mortiverse can duplicate the effects of a wish at caster level 1,584,563,250,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Save DC 39,614,081,250,000,000,000,000,000,117. This is a supernatural ability.

Do I have to explain?

Yes, he has Wish at will, he won't use it until he is in combat, by which point it will be Abrogated. You have wish at will as well, the CL doesn't really matter.

Ninth innocence you can NOT attack it first.

Abrogate from his1 clones

Answers in Bold.

[Harry]

"When the Mortiverse is slain, all its spawn are freed. A free spawn has a 5% chance to become a new Mortiverse."

Doesn't matter if he is prepared or not. If you slain him he is reborn and multiplied.

How will you create clones of him without him knowing before hand? or the problem of immunity to non epic magic? and immunity to magic from this universe?

Oh and innocence prevents any malice. Such as creating clones of him and giving them hats

[Aharon]

@Harry:
What about the Pizza-bribe?

Also, the Mortiverse is Homebrew that isn't actually found in the Immortals Handbook.

[Gandariel]

I don't mean to offend, Harry, but this is getting ridiculous.
The abilities are NOT official d&d and make no sense.

first thing: what does this mean?

First it has TWO sets of HP. The first one is for infinite damage. Once you get that you have 627,710,173,312,402,500,000,004,405,085,855,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000 hp left.

That makes really no sense. He has infinite hp + that number? infinite plus any number is infinite.
Deal it an infinite amount of damage (1d2 crusader) and it's dead.


Another thing:

Immunities (Ex): .... MAGIC from this universe, ...., Physical INJURY by matter from this universe

This should mean it's invincible. can't be hit by anything.
Ice assassin? no, you make it with things from this universe.

The point is that d&d doesn't have multiple universes. It has multiple planes but only one universe, and you can't get out of it.
So again, this is NOT compatible with d&d 3.5.

The Abrogate, Mime and Innocence abilities (and also the "double whatever" ability) make NO sense (as you explained them), and they are NOT adaptable with d&d rules.
(What does "strongest ability" even mean, anyway?)

It's like if i said my charachter has an Ivory Mask (from Magic: the Gathering. You can't be targeted by spells or effects), and say I'm immune to all spells.

This of course makes no sense because the Ivory Mask card is NOT d&d content and hence it can't be properly translated.

[rweird]

Originally Posted by Harry

"When the Mortiverse is slain, all its spawn are freed. A free spawn has a 5% chance to become a new Mortiverse."

Doesn't matter if he is prepared or not. If you slain him he is reborn and multiplied.

How will you create clones of him without him knowing before hand? or the problem of immunity to non epic magic? and immunity to magic from this universe?

Oh and innocence prevents any malice. Such as creating clones of him and giving them hats

If it says it prevents any malice, that is according to my dictionary:

malice |ˈmaləs|
noun
the intention or desire to do evil; ill will : I bear no malice toward anybody.
• Law wrongful intention, esp. as increasing the guilt of certain offenses.

You don't kill Mortiverse for the desire to do evil, or out of ill will, you do it out of duty. Or you could just do all that to make a super-powerful army, and once Mortiverse attacks, respond with overwhelming Abrogation till he no longer has any abilities, or stats, or anything, or until he is super weak and the others kill him.

To overcome this universe immunity, fluff you from coming from another universe. Start out with Snow from this universe as well, or do all the ice assassining pregame if it is allowed.

The clone and him will negate each other, heck, if he makes clones they'll all negate each others abilities anyways because I'd think that they'd all want to rule the universe, and killing him is the way to do that, so they'd all loose all there abilities, Abrogate included, I'd guess that all of that would mean that they'd all loose everything, or if that doesn't work, the duplicate would. His immunity would protect from Ice Assassin, because it doesn't target him directly, and the clones then would take all his abilities away. The spawn would all be killed the same way, or my clones would use Evil Eye to make the chance not succeed/Abrogate that ability. Maybe I'd make an Epic spell that grants immunity to Abrogate.

Learning of him, you said we had a year to prepare, I assume that means we know what we'd prepare for, though if it doesn't any divination that doesn't target him directly, (Summon a weird, give it a high enough DvR to autopass int checks from contact other plane, have it spam contact other plane as a free action until you know everything there is to know ever).

[molten_dragon]

I haven't followed the whole thread, but is there a reason that pun-pun can't beat the mortiverse? He's got a year to prepare, and any abilities that the mortiverse has pun-pun can copy. So essentially all of the truly infinite stuff would cancel out, and pun-pun can make his numbers without the infinite aspects tacked on bigger than the mortiverse's.

[tuggyne]

Originally Posted by molten_dragon

I haven't followed the whole thread, but is there a reason that pun-pun can't beat the mortiverse? He's got a year to prepare, and any abilities that the mortiverse has pun-pun can copy. So essentially all of the truly infinite stuff would cancel out, and pun-pun can make his numbers without the infinite aspects tacked on bigger than the mortiverse's.

The OP, for whatever reason, specifically excluded Pun-Pun ("and the like"). Presumably to avoid trivial solutions to an inelegantly overpowered problem?

[Eugenides]

Originally Posted by rweird

If it says it prevents any malice, that is according to my dictionary:
To overcome this universe immunity, fluff you from coming from another universe. Start out with Snow from this universe as well, or do all the ice assassining pregame if it is allowed.

I think this cinches it. You're a super-badass from another universe. Hell, by being from another universe you could likely argue that the Mortiverse doesn't even know you're coming, and with a year to prepare, you'e got this in the bag.

[molten_dragon]

Originally Posted by tuggyne

The OP, for whatever reason, specifically excluded Pun-Pun ("and the like"). Presumably to avoid trivial solutions to an inelegantly overpowered problem?

Considering that he then proceeded to post the Mortiverse, I'm not sure "pun-pun and the like" is off the table any more.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Harry

"When the Mortiverse is slain, all its spawn are freed. A free spawn has a 5% chance to become a new Mortiverse."

Doesn't matter if he is prepared or not. If you slain him he is reborn and multiplied.

How will you create clones of him without him knowing before hand? or the problem of immunity to non epic magic? and immunity to magic from this universe?

Oh and innocence prevents any malice. Such as creating clones of him and giving them hats

If you have infinite attackers doing infinite damage, you can kill infinite mortiverses and their infinite spawn, and since every spawn only has a 1 in 20 chance of becoming a new Mortiverse capable spawning, you kill the original, see how many of its clones become copies, kill them in the same turn before they get a chance to use their own Spawn ability, then work on the spawn that didn't Mortify.