Relationship Woes and Advice 22: In Which Two Problems Prevent Each Others' Solution

[Herpestidae]

Originally Posted by AngelSword

she told me she needed time to get used to the idea of being single.

The less I say about my situation, the better.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by noparlpf

If she started a relationship just after your confession, that was code for "I'm not interested but don't want to hurt your feelings". My sympathies.

One's mind boggles at the thought processes involved.

[noparlpf]

Originally Posted by Coidzor

One's mind boggles at the thought processes involved.

People seem to have remarkably poor foresight. They seem incapable of judging that such a vague, inconclusive rejection, although it might not hurt as much right now, will just cause more pain later because the other party won't be able to move on without an explicit rejection.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by noparlpf

People seem to have remarkably poor foresight. They seem incapable of judging that such a vague, inconclusive rejection, although it might not hurt as much right now, will just cause more pain later because the other party won't be able to move on without an explicit rejection.

I meant more making such a bald-faced, obvious lie to someone that was ostensibly a close friend. Less the inability to move on and the injury from being shown that your friendship meant so little that they couldn't either be honest or use a better lie than one that they'd show to be a lie the very next day or so.

Or at least, that's generally how I've taken it and seen it taken by others.

[noparlpf]

Originally Posted by Coidzor

I meant more making such a bald-faced, obvious lie to someone that was ostensibly a close friend. Less the inability to move on and the injury from being shown that your friendship meant so little that they couldn't either be honest or use a better lie than one that they'd show to be a lie the very next day or so.

Or at least, that's generally how I've taken it and seen it taken by others.

Well many people seem to have trouble interpreting it, so it must not be as bald-faced as we jaded old men see it.
Your point is a valid one too.

[Herpestidae]

"I don't want to go out with you because I want to spend a bit of time being single" implies "maybe I'd like to go out with you when I no longer want to be single."

"I don't want to go out with you because I don't return your feelings" is straight to the point.

[sktarq]

All of these do not take into account that people are often unaware or confused about thier own feelings and emotions. Also it is not as though most relationships are "planned". Sure that happens with all the classic first date, second date with a kiss, and after the third you're going steady if things have worked well. It's the standard to which we hold people often but is total male bovine fecal matter. Most relationships, particularly those with friends, rebounds, etc "just happen". People may have been intelectually against it but very often find themselves in it anyway. So just because someone says one thing and then acts another doesn't nessesarily make it a lie. Actually I found in talking to friends that more of them being more "on guard" with people who they "kinda liked" and ended up falling into a relationship with people who they disliked or didn't care about because they were not thinking about it and got caught up in a moment-not nessearily sexual. It might not hurt any less to be on the wrong end of it but it's sadley true that people are not very good at describing their own emotions even to themselves.
I wouldn't take it personally.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by sktarq

All of these do not take into account that people are often unaware or confused about thier own feelings and emotions. Also it is not as though most relationships are "planned".

Most likely scenario is that she already had her eye on this other individual and was planning to make a move or trying to get the other person to make a move.

Generally people don't spontaneously develop feelings and relationships where there was no desire for anything in the first place, and my understanding is that the people who do are not the most stable or constant anyway, so there's a few assumptions I've made that I feel are likely safe that would rule that out.

They can lie and/or be in denial that they're attracted to someone or interested even if they were not actively planning on acting on such desires, but people can and do lie about everything which is what brought this up in the first place.

[snoopy13a]

White lies avoid confrontation. So we use those instead of the brutal truth.

[noparlpf]

Originally Posted by snoopy13a

White lies avoid confrontation. So we use those instead of the brutal truth.

White lies can cause worse confrontations later. That's what nobody seems to get. It's so much better to just be honest.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by snoopy13a

White lies avoid confrontation. So we use those instead of the brutal truth.

Well, yes. Though you can also tell the truth without being brutal, but no one seems to know that.

Anyway, long story short, I mostly just don't like bad lies. If you're going to lie, lie well.

[dehro]

or maybe she just thought "I've told him I'll think about it and then he's seen me with another guy...he'll do the math"

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by dehro

or maybe she just thought "I've told him I'll think about it and then he's seen me with another guy...he'll do the math"

That kind of mentality rather obviates the "white" of the lie and the "respect" of the "friendship," though.

[Morph Bark]

One a happier note, today I went to dinner at a restaurant to celebrate the birthday of the girl I'm interested in, as I was invited by her family (which was a surprise for her) and after gratuitous sushi consumption I told them we should go to the funfair (that's the word, right?) around the corner and the two of us caught the last ride on the ferris wheel. Then I subsequently stole her first kiss as I said goodbye at her room and was driven home by her father.

All the sucky things considered currently in my life, I'm feeling pretty darn good!

[Karen Lynn]

Congratulations. Go Morph!

[sktarq]

Originally Posted by Coidzor

Most likely scenario is that she already had her eye on this other individual and was planning to make a move or trying to get the other person to make a move....They can lie and/or be in denial that they're attracted to someone or interested even if they were not actively planning on acting on such desires, but people can and do lie about everything which is what brought this up in the first place.

Funny I took the most likely scenario to be that she told herself she wanted to remain single. She didn't read her own emotions well about it. She said either because she thinks she it is something she should do but the emotional side isn't listening. When approched by a person SAYING they like them the upper brain responds with the prepared message....when an indirect and emotional appeal is made the upper brain says nothing and the emotional side which had no part of the "no relationship for a while" thing goes whole hog. Her denial was probably much more about her own emotional state than about any particular person.
Three major ideas support this for me. Of all the lies we tell the easiest to believe are those we believe ourselves however we lie to ourselves more than we do to almost anyone else. Most of it under the cover of rationalization. I really think we are much more rationalizating creatures than rational ones. This is also supported by neuromarketing studies for example.
Two: I talked with several of my friends who made a similar proclamations and asked them how they ended up with someone before that time. Most went through the above.
Three; I've gotten girls that way after years of trying the direct upper brain route failed. (Not proud of that but...)

tl;dr She was probably most likely in denial about her readiness for a relationship, and direct appeals or intelectual ones do not pierce this as well as indirect emotional ones.

[noparlpf]

Originally Posted by sktarq

Funny I took the most likely scenario to be that she told herself she wanted to remain single. She didn't read her own emotions well about it. She said either because she thinks she it is something she should do but the emotional side isn't listening. When approched by a person SAYING they like them the upper brain responds with the prepared message....when an indirect and emotional appeal is made the upper brain says nothing and the emotional side which had no part of the "no relationship for a while" thing goes whole hog. Her denial was probably much more about her own emotional state than about any particular person.
Three major ideas support this for me. Of all the lies we tell the easiest to believe are those we believe ourselves however we lie to ourselves more than we do to almost anyone else. Most of it under the cover of rationalization. I really think we are much more rationalizing creatures than rational ones. This is also supported by neuromarketing studies for example.
Two: I talked with several of my friends who made a similar proclamations and asked them how they ended up with someone before that time. Most went through the above.
Three; I've gotten girls that way after years of trying the direct upper brain route failed. (Not proud of that but...)

tl;dr She was probably most likely in denial about her readiness for a relationship, and direct appeals or intellectual ones do not pierce this as well as indirect emotional ones.

I know when I'm lying to myself. But I also know I need to sometimes to survive.

[dehro]

Originally Posted by Coidzor

That kind of mentality rather obviates the "white" of the lie and the "respect" of the "friendship," though.

probably..not everybody is always caring about every other individual's feelings.

or maybe she was either embarassed or just didn't know how to handle the situation. perfectly clear cut situations and reasonable individuals can become a big blurry mess when they're involved personally.
in fact, that is usually the case, in my experience.

[Castaras]

Originally Posted by sktarq

Funny I took the most likely scenario to be that she told herself she wanted to remain single. She didn't read her own emotions well about it. She said either because she thinks she it is something she should do but the emotional side isn't listening. When approched by a person SAYING they like them the upper brain responds with the prepared message....when an indirect and emotional appeal is made the upper brain says nothing and the emotional side which had no part of the "no relationship for a while" thing goes whole hog. Her denial was probably much more about her own emotional state than about any particular person.
Three major ideas support this for me. Of all the lies we tell the easiest to believe are those we believe ourselves however we lie to ourselves more than we do to almost anyone else. Most of it under the cover of rationalization. I really think we are much more rationalizating creatures than rational ones. This is also supported by neuromarketing studies for example.
Two: I talked with several of my friends who made a similar proclamations and asked them how they ended up with someone before that time. Most went through the above.
Three; I've gotten girls that way after years of trying the direct upper brain route failed. (Not proud of that but...)

tl;dr She was probably most likely in denial about her readiness for a relationship, and direct appeals or intelectual ones do not pierce this as well as indirect emotional ones.

This. It's bloody difficult at times to work out emotions, and harder still if you tell yourself you're going to be single and then something happens to mean you're not single any more. It's what happened with all 3 of my relationships - as soon as I decided to stay single (and told some people that I wanted to stay single), someone or something changed, and I couldn't predict it. One of the relationships, in fact, was with the guy I told straight off that I wanted to stay single and we couldn't be together for x, y, and z.

[Serpentine]

Originally Posted by Coidzor

I meant more making such a bald-faced, obvious lie to someone that was ostensibly a close friend.

Going straight to "SHE LIED AND CONSIDERS HER FRIEND A CHUMP" without taking so much as a nod at "she was wrong and misjudged the situation/her circumstances/future" is hardly fair, nor likely to be accurate.

What I think is far, far more likely in these situations is that what is really being said is "if I weren't in this slightly awkward position, I would probably give you a shot. But I am not interested enough to do so now". Whether it's dealing with a break-up or being too busy or whatever and declining someone because of it only to hook up with someone shortly afterwards, the upshot is that people will make time for someone who sweeps them off their feet, but not so much for someone they like just fine but at that point only like.
People who are given a line such as Sword's should accept it as a firm no, because if they don't fancy you enough to fit you in then they just don't fancy you enough. But screaming "LIAR!" when it turns out that someone came along who they did fancy enough to make time for is both false and unjust.
It is unnecessary to demonise people for being capable of changing their minds, and for being subject to changing circumstances.

edit: All of which, of course, is not to detract from Sword's situation. Because it is a really sucky place to be, and I'm sorry. Lots of sympathies

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by Serpentine

Going straight to "SHE LIED AND CONSIDERS HER FRIEND A CHUMP" without taking so much as a nod at "she was wrong and misjudged the situation/her circumstances/future" is hardly fair, nor likely to be accurate.

Well, no, you can thank the argument thus far for that.

[ThiagoMartell]

Originally Posted by Morph Bark

One a happier note, today I went to dinner at a restaurant to celebrate the birthday of the girl I'm interested in, as I was invited by her family (which was a surprise for her) and after gratuitous sushi consumption I told them we should go to the funfair (that's the word, right?) around the corner and the two of us caught the last ride on the ferris wheel. Then I subsequently stole her first kiss as I said goodbye at her room and was driven home by her father.

All the sucky things considered currently in my life, I'm feeling pretty darn good!

That's cool, Morph. Hope thing keep on improving.

[Pyromancer999]

Originally Posted by Morph Bark

One a happier note, today I went to dinner at a restaurant to celebrate the birthday of the girl I'm interested in, as I was invited by her family (which was a surprise for her) and after gratuitous sushi consumption I told them we should go to the funfair (that's the word, right?) around the corner and the two of us caught the last ride on the ferris wheel. Then I subsequently stole her first kiss as I said goodbye at her room and was driven home by her father.

All the sucky things considered currently in my life, I'm feeling pretty darn good!

This seems appropriate.

Good job!

[AngelSword]

I feel it necessary to point out, for what it's worth, that she and I are separated by about 1,500 miles, whereas the new guy is local. >.>

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Originally Posted by Morph Bark

One a happier note, today I went to dinner at a restaurant to celebrate the birthday of the girl I'm interested in, as I was invited by her family (which was a surprise for her) and after gratuitous sushi consumption I told them we should go to the funfair (that's the word, right?) around the corner and the two of us caught the last ride on the ferris wheel. Then I subsequently stole her first kiss as I said goodbye at her room and was driven home by her father.

All the sucky things considered currently in my life, I'm feeling pretty darn good!

*Dances around and strikes a disco pose* AW YEAH. Been rooting for you bud! Glad it's working out well!

[The Succubus]

Originally Posted by AngelSword

I feel it necessary to point out, for what it's worth, that she and I are separated by about 1,500 miles, whereas the new guy is local. >.>

1,500 miles is no barrier to true love but it's quite the irritating obstacle though. =/

[Morph Bark]

Originally Posted by Adrian Korvedzk

Congratulations. Go Morph!

Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell

That's cool, Morph. Hope thing keep on improving.

Originally Posted by TheWombatOfDoom

*Dances around and strikes a disco pose* AW YEAH. Been rooting for you bud! Glad it's working out well!

Thanks guys! The developments and the support make me feel like I'll be able to pull myself out of this rut and turn things around.

Originally Posted by Pyromancer999

This seems appropriate.

Good job!

Haha, thanks! I love the Karate Kid movies and that song is awesome. Perhaps doubly appropriate since I want to take up a martial art to get myself some more exercise, and karate is one of the four most accessible ones around.

[The Succubus]

You should take your sweetheart along as well. The two of you can then spar together, which is a great way to get the endorphins and blood flowing. =3

Plus you get to throw each other around as well. =P

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by Morph Bark

Thanks guys! The developments and the support make me feel like I'll be able to pull myself out of this rut and turn things around.



Haha, thanks! I love the Karate Kid movies and that song is awesome. Perhaps doubly appropriate since I want to take up a martial art to get myself some more exercise, and karate is one of the four most accessible ones around.

That's because you can do it! And martial arts is a great way to make exercise fun.

Originally Posted by AngelSword

I feel it necessary to point out, for what it's worth, that she and I are separated by about 1,500 miles, whereas the new guy is local. >.>

I'm sorry for my part in the expanding tangent.

[Morph Bark]

Originally Posted by The Succubus

You should take your sweetheart along as well. The two of you can then spar together, which is a great way to get the endorphins and blood flowing. =3

Plus you get to throw each other around as well. =P

Haha, that'd be a great idea, but sadly she stays in a city in another province during the week due to her studies (she's studying to be a dentist, which may be troublesome for some sports as she may under no circumstances injure her thumb, as that may disqualify her from becoming a dentist). She does enjoy going for a run though, so I could just as well come along with her sometime, or take her along to go for a run in the woods somewhere.

Or just, y'know, a walk.

Originally Posted by Coidzor

That's because you can do it! And martial arts is a great way to make exercise fun.

Yeah, it certainly is. I haven't practiced it beyond a few try-outs many years ago, but all my other family members have practiced one art or another (judo, karate, jiu-jitsu). I am the only one who hasn't yet, but I also think it'd be a great outlet for me. So far I've done hockey and archery (I originally met the girl seven years ago during archery even), so now after a 4 year sports hiatus, it's time to get back into it.


Now I just have to find out what sports and what times fit me best. I'm looking into taekwondo, judo, karate and boxing.