swordmage - tips for feat combination (non AC defences)

Signir · 09-26-2012, 06:33 AM

Please, give me some tips, which combination of feats is better for my swordmage?

My character is Eladrin Swordmage, shielding variant, starting Array is Str=12, Con=12, Dex=12, Int=20, Wis=12, Cha=8.

I want invest (in future) in two feats in character build to improve my non AC defences. I know about feat Greater Swordmage Warding and I want thouse two additional feats to improve my NAD´s over GSW. My question is, which variant is better?

First variant: 1) Improved defences (HotFL) and 2) Resilient Focus (HotFL)
Plus: I invest only in Con and Int and my warding will by higher and I´ll have +2 to all saving throws.
Minus: Will defence will be lower.

Second variant: 1) Superior Fortitude (HotFL) and 2) Superior Will (HotFL)
Plus: Will defence will be higher (by +2 and I know, there are some nasty effects from targeting will defence). Perception will be higher (because of investment at Wisdom).
Minus: I must invest some points (1 or 2) to Wisdom and my swordmage warding will by decreased (-1).

What do You think? Any advice, tips?

Adoendithas · 09-26-2012, 07:34 AM

You might also want to use a background to get your hit points from INT, since you optimized so heavily for it.

obryn · 09-26-2012, 08:23 AM

I think that stat spread is not a good idea for a swordmage. Shielding Swordmages in particular are less concerned with missing than other defenders... That will help your F/R/W out and help you qualify for some of those better defensive feats as well. And it will help your mark.

YMMV. Not sure if reassigning stats is really an option in your game.

-O

Signir · 09-26-2012, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adoendithas

You might also want to use a background to get your hit points from INT, since you optimized so heavily for it.

I know, what you mean (auspicious birth), but my swordmage is trained in perception and have background with +2 to perception. I have arcane mutterings as utility power and my character is prety good in fight and skill challenges.
(As Theme I give him Order Adept, but I´m looking at Elemental Initiative...).

Quote:

Originally Posted by obryn

I think that stat spread is not a good idea for a swordmage. Shielding Swordmages in particular are less concerned with missing than other defenders... That will help your F/R/W out and help you qualify for some of those better defensive feats as well. And it will help your mark.

YMMV. Not sure if reassigning stats is really an option in your game.

-O

My plan is make eladrin fencer - shielding swordmage, but with good chance of hit (because of effect from transposing lunge and dimensional vortex). Good AC and Reflex is good for me (actualy I´m on 4 level and my defences are good except fortitude and dimensional vortex is awsome with boost to hit with preracial 18 in Int).

But question was: Improved defences+Resilient focus OR Superior fortitude+Superior will - for shielding swordmage?

Silma · 09-26-2012, 10:28 AM

Keep in mind that if you go for Greater Swordmage Warding, the bonus it gives to all 4 defenses is a feat bonus, and it wont stack with either of your 2 options.

Other than that I would go for improved defenses and resilient focus.

tcrudisi · 09-26-2012, 02:44 PM

Superior Fort + Will.

Daze will be your bane. Get rid of it as often as possible.

Resilient Focus is an amazing feat. But at low levels? It's skippable. I'd pick it up in late heroic or early paragon tier somewhere. For a defender, I actually like taking all 3 superior feats. It's better defenses and I think Superior Will is a must, anyway. And Fort is great, too, since you'll often find yourself with ongoing damage. Reflexes? Meh. But at least you auto-qualify.

The only problem is that you'll have to give up some Int to get both Fort and Will. Bummer, but it happens.

Signir · 09-27-2012, 02:04 AM

I know that GSW wont stack with Improved defences or with Superior Fortitude/Will. I want to have very good NAD´s (I plan in epic to have Epic Fort/Ref/Will too, I know - 6 feats about defences seems too much, but my Eladrin is a fencer and he want be the best - White lotus riposte and King´s Shield coming soon).

I´m not going to invest points from Int to Wis anyway, every poit is going to Int and additional point will be going to Con (if I choose way Improved Defences + Resilient Focus) OR to Con at heroic and at the start paragon I can choose Superior Fortitude and at Paragon to Wis and at the start epic I can choose Superior Will.

I´m questioning about Improved Defences + Resilient Focus feats OR Superior Fortitude + Superior Will because I´m feat starved and I want another feats for Arcane admixture, Thunder´s Rumble, Solid Sound and maybe Resounding Thunder combo.

Silma · 09-27-2012, 08:11 AM

Then why dont u skip GSW and get all 3 superior defenses? Sure your AC will fall by 1 (2 in epic), but you will have amazing NADs and all 3 extra benefits.

Signir · 09-27-2012, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silma

Then why dont u skip GSW and get all 3 superior defenses? Sure your AC will fall by 1 (2 in epic), but you will have amazing NADs and all 3 extra benefits.

But it´s trade between +2 to Reflex and +1/+2 to AC. And we know´s, that AC is more targeted defence. GSW wins over the Superior reflexes. Reflex defence isn´t problem for my build, I have this defence prety high because of Int score and neck slot items.

tcrudisi · 09-28-2012, 03:53 AM

AC is more targeted in the heroic tier, yes. If you are talking about paragon and up? AC is targeted less and less and the NADs become all the more important.

As a defender, I do everything I can to raise up my defenses sky-high. It's not uncommon for me to use up 7 or 8 feats for defense by level 30. As a different role, I don't go so heavy on defense, but for a defender, I think it's worth it.

To this end, I realize that damage isn't a part of what I'll be doing. I'll still try to ramp it up some, but it's not uncommon for me to be doing mediocre damage. As a swordmage, it's all the more frustrating because of the implement/weapon thing.

If you'd like for us to look over your build, why not throw up a level 30 version of it?

Finally, note that there's a level 14/24 head item that lets you make saves vs. daze and stun (14) and also dominate (24) at the start of your turn. For a feat starved character, you might consider that in place of Superior Will. (The name eludes me, even though my wizard currently uses the darn thing.)

obryn · 09-28-2012, 09:06 AM

Yeah, frankly swordmages are among the worst - if not the absolute worst - damage-dealers in the game. They get some reprieve from AoE powers like Sword Burst and can do mild damage to several enemies, but they need to pull all sorts of tricks to get there.

IMO, a shielding swordmage's best bet is to amplify their Aegis and defenses (all defenses, not just AC), then take a few teleportation powers to stay far away from the target of their Aegis. I would never, ever spend the points to buy a 20 Int in character generation for a swordmage of any kind.

-O

Signir · 09-29-2012, 07:00 AM

OK, here are two versions level 30 Eladrin Swordmage:

Version 1 - Improved defences (HotFL) and Resilient Focus (HotFL)

Spoiler

Version 2 - Superior Fortitude (HotFL) and Superior Will (HotFL)

Spoiler

Any suggestions which version is better and how make one of this this builds (i know, that this is very common shielding build) better?

EDIT: preracial 18 to Int mean (for defences) difference between +2 to Frotitude (for 16 preracial to Int) and +1 to AC and +1 Reflex (for 18 preracial to Int). Preracial 18 to Int doesnt mean lesser defences, for swordmage...

vasharanpaladin · 09-29-2012, 03:53 PM

Int 16 pre-racial. Period.

Signir · 10-01-2012, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vasharanpaladin

Int 16 pre-racial. Period.

This is not answer for both my questions (Any suggestions which version is better and how make one of this this builds better?). On top of that, this answer is without explanation.

(and it´s only reason - theory, because preracial 16 to Int for Shielding Swordmage means (for defences) only +2 to Fortitude and -1 to AC and -1 to Reflex - this is not bad for preracial 18 to Int, deal between -2 to Fort and +1 to AC and Reflex).

Please, have anybody idea (with explanation - like tcrudisi did) about Improved defences + resilient focus compared to Superior Fortitude + Superior Will, or any ideas about two builds, which I posted here?

tcrudisi · 10-01-2012, 05:54 AM

Minor nitpick with version 2: You do not have Improved Defenses. You do not have Superior Reflexes. Yet, you took Epic Reflexes. In this scenario, Superior Reflexes is superior to Epic Reflexes. They both grant +4 Reflex, but Superior grants automatic combat advantage on your first turn.

Solid Sound is nice, but I'd rather have a more permanent bonus. In other words, I'd rather take a different defensive feat.

I'm still a bit torn on which build I like better. See: I value defenses a lot on a defender. But there's something that I believe that every character should have by epic level: Resilient Focus. It's that important. Saves are the best thing you can do on any character, period. It's why Superior Will is valued so highly.

To that end, I lean towards version 2, but replacing a feat (Solid Sound?) with Resilient Focus. I also strongly advise ditching the Greater Ring of Invisibility and replacing it with a Ring of Sympathy (level 15). Then, convince your party that they all want one. Buy one for each of them if you have to. Once you've seen it in action, you'll realize that no level 30 ring even compares. I rank it as the most powerful ring in the game ... if you can get the entire party to have it.

Anecdotal evidence: My group has played characters from level 1 and we are now level 26. There's usually 6 of us (though 10 total, some don't show up often) and only 1 of us doesn't have the ring. He's the only one that ever suffers from any save ends conditions. And he's always complaining about it. Combined with Resilient Focus and each of us having a Horreb Ritual Cube (or other item bonus to saves), the DM can't get (save ends) conditions to stick onto us. I also use a Necklace of Fate just to be extra sure -- though it is a bit of overkill. I've not used it in the last 5 levels. In other words: Resilient Focus + Ring of Sympathy for everyone. Trust me on this.

I'm also not a big fan of Rose King's Shield. Perhaps this is what you can retrain at mid-paragon when saving throws become extremely important. Yes, the temps are nice - but ya know what? You can't do everything on your own. Trust in your leader to keep you up. You've got solid defenses; 10 temp hp a round when you use your at-will of choice is nice, but +2 to all saves is nicer.

So, I guess I'm throwing out support for a combination of the two. It just feels like there are feats that you can replace to make it work.

But, if you absolutely MUST force me to pick one of the two because none of the other feats are negotiable, then I pick version 1 for levels 1-15 and version 2 for levels 16-30. Seriously. :p

Signir · 10-01-2012, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcrudisi

Minor nitpick with version 2: You do not have Improved Defenses. You do not have Superior Reflexes. Yet, you took Epic Reflexes. In this scenario, Superior Reflexes is superior to Epic Reflexes. They both grant +4 Reflex, but Superior grants automatic combat advantage on your first turn.

Thank You very much, your explanation make sense to me. I took version two and replace solid sound with Resilient focus.
But with reflexes is one issue - Superior Reflexes is feat bonus and dont stuck with GSW, but Epic Reflexes is untypized bonus, so stuck with GSW. so I trade automatic advantage on first turn for +2 to Reflex.
I think (you give me very good advice) about trade (in build version 2) between Rose King Shield and Superior Reflexes - 5/10 THP or +2 to Reflex with advantage on first turn....

tcrudisi · 10-01-2012, 09:59 AM

Oops. I didn't notice GSW there. Yeah, you're right: Epic Reflexes it is. And, even considering it's only +2 reflexes and auto-CA, I'd still take it over Rose. However, I'd probably go with the Rose for the first few levels. 5 temp hp is pretty good early on. It quickly loses it's luster, though, especially when you get more and more encounter and daily powers, meaning you use your at-wills less and less. (Yes, 2 of your enc powers will be immediate actions, but you'll get others that won't be.)

Signir · 10-01-2012, 12:04 PM

And what about theme? Is Order Adept better then Elemental Initiative?

Bonus to Will is same.
Order Adept theme has bonus to Arcana (+4), this bonus help with "Arcane mutterings" utility power and with knowledge checks.
Elemetal Initiative theme has training in Nature or Religion (this help with skill challenges) and with ki focuses (+ some benefits to unarmed - this isnt important for shielding swordmage).
Swap utility in level 6 for Elemental Initiative theme is amazing ("Restoring Touch") - its encounter and healing AND and one of these effects - poison, dazing or stunning.
Wizards (with Order Adept theme) have many good utilities too.
Guarranted encounter powers are hardly comparable - Elemental Initiatives power "Disciplined counter" is scaling better, but its immediate, and swordmages need their immediate for their job (and, this is a point, if you took Elemental Initiative theme, you must choose "Versatile expertise" feat to having scaling bonus to hit with "Disciplined Counter" power and you dont have "War Wizard´s Expertise" feat)...

What do you think?

Firebug · 10-01-2012, 12:23 PM

The Elemental Initiate level 6 utility swap would be amazing... if it wasn't a standard action and melee 1. While as an Order Adept (and trained in Heal) you can grab Herbal Healing from Wizard 2, for a minor action second wind + saving throw as an encounter power. If you aren't trained in heal, Guardian Blades, or Mystical Debris + Terrain Advantage for your CA feat are good runner's up.

Kurald Galain · 10-01-2012, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Signir

And what about theme? Is Order Adept better then Elemental Initiative?

I don't see much of a benefit to Elemental Initiate. An extra trained knowledge skill is redundant so it wouldn't help you in an SC much; the healing utility is pretty bad because (unlike most healing spells) it costs a standard action. And you probably want to keep your immediate action for defending.

So Order Adept, hands down.

Signir · 10-03-2012, 01:20 AM

Thank you guys for ideas and opinions. This makes my build better. :o)

Signir · 11-06-2012, 01:04 PM

Hi again,

I have another question. Now about Theme for my swordmage.

I have "Rose King´s shield" feat, I have "Eager´s Heroe tatoo" and at paragon I choose "Coronal guard" paragon path. With this I have THP all day.

Is the "Order Adept" theme (which I have) better than new theme from dragon magazine 414 - "The society of sensation" - wich is based on THP?

What do You think?