3.5 Dominate question

[Blue1005]

in 3.5 how many things can 1 caster have dominated at one time? Is it limited only to one?

[CthulhuEatYou]

I'm pretty sure there's no limit

[Flickerdart]

As many as you can keep track of to make sure you renew the spell in a timely fashion. I recommend keeping a ledger.

[Mithril Leaf]

(Number of spells per day of a level compatible with desired dominate) X (Caster Level). Gotta keep track of them.

[Eldebryn]

Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf

(Number of spells per day of a level compatible with desired dominate) X (Caster Level). Gotta keep track of them.

You can always use higher level spell slots for that certain Dominate....

[ericgrau]

You also need to keep a record of what things each dominated creature strongly opposes, or 100 dominated creatures with unknown ways to break free could get messy fast.

Well that or a random foe with a magic circle against evil could walk in...

[tuggyne]

At this convenient juncture, I refer you to the Evil Overlord List: "48. I will treat any beast which I control through magic or technology with respect and kindness. Thus if the control is ever broken, it will not immediately come after me for revenge."

[Mithril Leaf]

Originally Posted by Eldebryn

You can always use higher level spell slots for that certain Dominate....

Ah Mind Rape. The most Permanent of Dominates.

[Slipperychicken]

Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf

Ah Mind Rape. The most Permanent of Dominates.

It has the added bonus of automatically letting you know everything the target does, which can snap unprepared campaigns like a twig. If you Mindrape someone with higher checks in Knowledge skills than you (scholarly types, casters of all stripes, spies, etc), see if you can be treated as having their number of ranks, if it's higher than yours. You know everything they do, after all..

[Flickerdart]

Originally Posted by Slipperychicken

It has the added bonus of automatically letting you know everything the target does, which can snap unprepared campaigns like a twig. If you Mindrape someone with higher checks in Knowledge skills than you (scholarly types, casters of all stripes, spies, etc), see if you can be treated as having their number of ranks, if it's higher than yours. You know everything they do, after all..

You took a look at that information once, while they've spent years studying. It's the difference between flipping through a book and writing it.

[Slipperychicken]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

You took a look at that information once, while they've spent years studying. It's the difference between flipping through a book and writing it.

I would agree, but it says "the caster... learning everything the creature knows", rather than using a verb like observe, hear, or notice. Learning heavily implies retention, while the language which would support your post do not. Listening to a lecture or reading a book isn't learning; getting the information into your head and keeping it there is learning.

[Blue1005]

All the amazing speculation aside...What page is the level rule and such found on? in the PHB under the spell it says nothing of saving throws after the first and didnt see a limit.

[Mithril Leaf]

Originally Posted by Blue1005

All the amazing speculation aside...What page is the level rule and such found on? in the PHB under the spell it says nothing of saving throws after the first and didnt see a limit.

Well, the caster level limit is because you can only hold onto control for days/CL. Here's the rules for things like additional saving throws. You have to renew your domination every time the time would run out.

[Coidzor]

In practical terms, a half dozen or less, depending upon what the dominated creatures can do, that actually participate with the party, at least at any one time. Usually more like... 3 or less with 4 being more of the edge.

[Blue1005]

Thanks, now if I wanted to have a psion dominate how would that change anything?

[tuggyne]

Originally Posted by Blue1005

Thanks, now if I wanted to have a psion dominate how would that change anything?

It's still basically the same arrangement; the only difference is the exact calculations involved. For example, a Psion 11 (earliest level you can augment psionic dominate for 1 day/level without Overchannel or other ML boosters) would have enough pp for maybe 13 dominates per day, at the very most (and literally nothing else). 13 x 11 is up to 143 dominated slaves, but at the cost of having nothing to spend on emergencies. Or a Psion 13 could Extend the same power and have more than twice as many.

Really, it's limited more by practical concerns and margins of error than theoretical pp reserves.

[Blue1005]

Originally Posted by tuggyne

It's still basically the same arrangement; the only difference is the exact calculations involved. For example, a Psion 11 (earliest level you can augment psionic dominate for 1 day/level without Overchannel or other ML boosters) would have enough pp for maybe 13 dominates per day, at the very most (and literally nothing else). 13 x 11 is up to 143 dominated slaves, but at the cost of having nothing to spend on emergencies. Or a Psion 13 could Extend the same power and have more than twice as many.

Really, it's limited more by practical concerns and margins of error than theoretical pp reserves.

You get the dominate spell at like level 9 i thought? And you dont have to spend those power points daily to maintain do you? It says all you need to do is concentrate on it one round to maintain it, doesnt say recast it.

[douglas]

Originally Posted by Blue1005

You get the dominate spell at like level 9 i thought? And you dont have to spend those power points daily to maintain do you? It says all you need to do is concentrate on it one round to maintain it, doesnt say recast it.

A Psion can get the Psionic Dominate power at level 7, but it takes level 11 to use the 4 point augment to get a duration of 1 day per level. At that level it will last 11 days, so you do need to recast it on each person once every 11 days. If on each of those days you recast it on a different batch of people, you can maintain 11 separate batches of dominated subjects, each of which has 13 members. With that tactic, then, you can dominate 11 * 13 = 143 people.

[tuggyne]

Originally Posted by Blue1005

You get the dominate spell at like level 9 i thought? And you dont have to spend those power points daily to maintain do you? It says all you need to do is concentrate on it one round to maintain it, doesnt say recast it.

Duration: Concentration means you have to spend a standard action every round maintaining it. This is not generally viable for more than one target at a time. (douglas has already correctly answered the rest of your post.)

[Twilightwyrm]

Originally Posted by Slipperychicken

It has the added bonus of automatically letting you know everything the target does, which can snap unprepared campaigns like a twig. If you Mindrape someone with higher checks in Knowledge skills than you (scholarly types, casters of all stripes, spies, etc), see if you can be treated as having their number of ranks, if it's higher than yours. You know everything they do, after all..

Yes, it is also horribly horribly evil, and will likely get you a nice trip to one of the more hellish lower planes for employing it. So unless you are actually playing an evil campaign/character (of 17th level or higher), this should really be reserved for villains.

[LordBlades]

Originally Posted by Twilightwyrm

Yes, it is also horribly horribly evil, and will likely get you a nice trip to one of the more hellish lower planes for employing it. So unless you are actually playing an evil campaign/character (of 17th level or higher), this should really be reserved for villains.

If you're a 17th level wizard you probably don't plan on dying soon anyway. Also, quite a few people (myself included) consider the [Evil] tag as completely misplaced on Mindrape.

It can do 3 things, none of which are [Evil] on their own:

-Allow you to read a target's thoughts (Neither Detect Thoughts or any other mind reading spell is [Evil])
-Allow you to modify a target's memories and personality (Modify Memory is not [Evil]; Sanctify the Wicked is a [Good] spell that alters a target's personality).
-Allows you to leave the target affected by Insanity (which is also not [Evil])

[Hanuman]

Dominate as in the spell or power normally cast has no limitations, seen here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/po...atePsionic.htm

Dominate is an enchantment or a planted telepathy, there's no real connection after the initial instance.

Other forms of mental command such as a rebuke undead would have an HD limit due to it's use of binding oneself to the commanded creatures by the use of negative energy.

[Alleran]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

As many as you can keep track of to make sure you renew the spell in a timely fashion. I recommend keeping a ledger.

Why bother keeping track? Just use Necrotic Cyst + Necrotic Tumor (or Monstrous Thrall) and maintain a permanencied Interplanar Telepathic Bond with all of your dominated minions (allows you to stay in communication with them all).

Or use Mindrape, but that's not technically a dominate spell, per se.

[AlchemicalMyst]

Originally Posted by LordBlades

It can do 3 things, none of which are [Evil] on their own:
-Allow you to read a target's thoughts (Neither Detect Thoughts or any other mind reading spell is [Evil])

Reading thoughts, and instantly knowing everything the creature knows (memories and all) are kind of completely different things xD

-Allow you to modify a target's memories and personality (Modify Memory is not [Evil]; Sanctify the Wicked is a [Good] spell that alters a target's personality).

I think you are forgetting that this spell takes close to no time and has no limit in creating, erasing, and modifying memories while Modify Memory can only edit 5 minutes, taking 5 minutes to do (even with unlimited castings per day it would literally take a lifetime to alter a lifetime), and has many limitations including not being able to go against the target's natural inclinations.

Also, in regards to Sanctify the Wicked, in D&D Good and Evil are pretty clearly defined. Destroying all Evil is Good. Saving Evil from itself even by force is even more Good (didn't know how to phrase that, haha). It's the act of forcing Evil to become good over the course of an entire year at a great personal sacrifice that makes it a Good spell.

-Allows you to leave the target affected by Insanity (which is also not [Evil])

True, but this is nitpicking at it's finest.

Of course by comparing Mindrape to a whole bunch of spells one at a time without acknowledging the major differences is going to make it seem like it shouldn't have the [Evil] tag. However, it is not just one effect to be compared. It's the fact that Mindrape is all of those spells improved and combined to be used instantaniously, more difficult to "cure", and more importantly with all limitations removed.

The spell is specifically designed for you to be able to turn someone into your personal hard drive. You can instantly save, erase, copy, modify, format, corrupt, etc their mind at-will permanently (for the most part). To top it off, they don't even remember if you so choose! Better yet, make them insane after you rape their mind as well! Scorpius from Farscape anyone? Even if you choose to just do the most basic function of the spell (the only one you have to do), than you instantly know everything they ever have which is a pretty perverse intrusion of the mind. Imagine how disturbed, violated, and angry you would be if someone suddenly had a copy of your entire life in their head.

That and the greatest reason of all...fluff.

[Slipperychicken]

Originally Posted by Twilightwyrm

Yes, it is also horribly horribly evil, and will likely get you a nice trip to one of the more hellish lower planes for employing it. So unless you are actually playing an evil campaign/character (of 17th level or higher), this should really be reserved for villains.

Death? We solved that 8 levels ago. And the Deluxe Version just kicked in. As the sufficiently-paranoid 17th level casters we are, we can kick the lower planes arses literally to Hell and back... if we don't feel like just going into hiding or summoning a horde of angels, that is.


But I agree, it's absolutely broken, and really should be avoided by both DMs and players alike, unless they like truly brutal and unforgiving games. I disagree with the rules on the Evil part, since it can just as easily be used for Goodness (no more Evil than a Dominate spell of permanent duration. It's how you use it that matters).

[Flickerdart]

Originally Posted by Alleran

Why bother keeping track? Just use Necrotic Cyst + Necrotic Tumor (or Monstrous Thrall) and maintain a permanencied Interplanar Telepathic Bond with all of your dominated minions (allows you to stay in communication with them all).

Or use Mindrape, but that's not technically a dominate spell, per se.

Don't you need a feat to use the Cyst spells? Why bother when you can just renew the casting every once in a while?

[LordBlades]

Originally Posted by AlchemicalMyst

Also, in regards to Sanctify the Wicked, in D&D Good and Evil are pretty clearly defined. Destroying all Evil is Good. Saving Evil from itself even by force is even more Good (didn't know how to phrase that, haha). It's the act of forcing Evil to become good over the course of an entire year at a great personal sacrifice that makes it a Good spell.

So forcing evil to become good at no personal sacrifice and instantaneously is somehow not Good? It's one of the things you can do with Mindrape. There are just as many good ways to use that spell as there are evil.

[Slipperychicken]

Originally Posted by LordBlades

So forcing evil to become good at no personal sacrifice and instantaneously is somehow not Good? It's one of the things you can do with Mindrape. There are just as many good ways to use that spell as there are evil.

It's only [Good] if it sucks relative to the [Evil] version.

[Mithril Leaf]

Incidentally, Tainted Scholar's can use Mind Rape to turn the lords of the lower planes into paragons of good. Enough Mind Rapes, some remodeling, and a bit of PAO and you've got yourself a mirror of the the heavens down where the sinners reside.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by Twilightwyrm

Yes, it is also horribly horribly evil, and will likely get you a nice trip to one of the more hellish lower planes for employing it. So unless you are actually playing an evil campaign/character (of 17th level or higher), this should really be reserved for villains.

Domination is only evil if it's used irresponsibly. If all your commanded thralls are required to do is come to a predetermined location and give you a report at the same time you renew the effect, you've just created a very reliable info network with a fairly minimal loss of dignity. It's certainly not good, but it's not inherently evil either. Whether your controll over a subject is evil or not depends entirely on what you do with it. Under special circumstances it can even be good.

Originally Posted by AlchemicalMyst

Reading thoughts, and instantly knowing everything the creature knows (memories and all) are kind of completely different things xD

I think you are forgetting that this spell takes close to no time and has no limit in creating, erasing, and modifying memories while Modify Memory can only edit 5 minutes, taking 5 minutes to do (even with unlimited castings per day it would literally take a lifetime to alter a lifetime), and has many limitations including not being able to go against the target's natural inclinations.

Also, in regards to Sanctify the Wicked, in D&D Good and Evil are pretty clearly defined. Destroying all Evil is Good. Saving Evil from itself even by force is even more Good (didn't know how to phrase that, haha). It's the act of forcing Evil to become good over the course of an entire year at a great personal sacrifice that makes it a Good spell.

True, but this is nitpicking at it's finest.

Of course by comparing Mindrape to a whole bunch of spells one at a time without acknowledging the major differences is going to make it seem like it shouldn't have the [Evil] tag. However, it is not just one effect to be compared. It's the fact that Mindrape is all of those spells improved and combined to be used instantaniously, more difficult to "cure", and more importantly with all limitations removed.

The spell is specifically designed for you to be able to turn someone into your personal hard drive. You can instantly save, erase, copy, modify, format, corrupt, etc their mind at-will permanently (for the most part). To top it off, they don't even remember if you so choose! Better yet, make them insane after you rape their mind as well! Scorpius from Farscape anyone? Even if you choose to just do the most basic function of the spell (the only one you have to do), than you instantly know everything they ever have which is a pretty perverse intrusion of the mind. Imagine how disturbed, violated, and angry you would be if someone suddenly had a copy of your entire life in their head.

That and the greatest reason of all...fluff.

This whole argument is undone by a single spell; Programmed Amnesia (CAr pg 118). It does everything mindrape does and then a couple more things but it's not an evil spell.

WotC did as good a job as anyone can really expect of codifying something as complex as human morality, but they have a horrible track record of tagging spells appropriately. Deathwatch is evil? Seriously?