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The Chameleon prestige class has the only available floating feat (that I know of) in D&D 3.5
One well known trick is to use the floating feat to take Extra Spell over and over again, allowing the Chameleon to make a spell book with any spell they like (and craft utility scrolls of up to 5th spell level).
Extra Spell is limited by only allowing you to learn a spell of 1 level lower than your highest you can currently cast. Is there a way to boost the Chameleon's spell level up to 7 so it can access the 6th level spells on the Wizard/Sorcerer list?
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Is Chameleon's spellcasting compatible with Sublime Cord? That's the only way I can think of expanding the spellcasting.
I don't think so. The Chameleon's casting cannot be used to qualify for prc reqs, so you would need to have 4th level casting in something else and then apply it to the Chameleon instead. Which is possible, but probably not feasible in a pre-epic campaign
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Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes
Finding out that the ennui and cynicism of our times is not, after all, an unavoidable unreverseable fate does kind of throw your world-view off, potentially.
Earth Spell? When you Heighten a spell it's treated as 1 extra level higher. So Heighten a spell to 6th, it is now a 7th, and use Extra Spell to grab a new 6th.
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Last edited by The Random NPC : 10-07-2012 at 12:45 AM.
Earth Spell looks like my best bet. Takes it up two levels and can be done anywhere there is earth.
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Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes
Finding out that the ennui and cynicism of our times is not, after all, an unavoidable unreverseable fate does kind of throw your world-view off, potentially.
Why would extra spell be relevant to a chameleon? It explicitly says they can prepare prepare arcane and divine spells from any list. I guess you could do a 2 level dip as a caster, but that doesn't seem like it would be worthwhile.
Why would extra spell be relevant to a chameleon? It explicitly says they can prepare prepare arcane and divine spells from any list. I guess you could do a 2 level dip as a caster, but that doesn't seem like it would be worthwhile.
The exact wording is a little vague, but the whole "you prepare and cast these spells just as a wizard" plus the lack of something directly stating that you know every spell in the arcane book has lead my group to believe that you still need to have a spellbook with the spells written you want written into it. In other words, you don't get to cherry pick each day. Rather, you can learn any spell from any arcane list, but you still need to write them down and memorize them (hence why it specifically references using spellbooks).
Other groups may decide otherwise, but that is how it has been interpreted whenever it comes up in my group.
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Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes
Finding out that the ennui and cynicism of our times is not, after all, an unavoidable unreverseable fate does kind of throw your world-view off, potentially.
That's entirely reasonable, but there's still nothing preventing you from writing down wu jen or bard spells. Those exist in the spellbooks of other chameleons, on scrolls, etc. just like anything else.
For all that trouble, shouldn't you go with a divine chameleon instead?
all other things being equal arcane > divine.
I'm curious if this is even legal though. Does extra spell require any spellcasting ability? If it does you can't qualify for it with your chameleon spellcasting.
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Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
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Originally Posted by LTwerewolf
[...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
It requires a caster level, which usually makes a few levels in a casting class useful before class entry. Or SLA templates, if playing with LA buyoff.
Focusing on divine means you can use Divine Metamagic and don't have to bother with Extra Spell cheese, you simply have all spells by default. There are also more classes with discount spell lists for the divine side then there are for arcane. When it comes to Chameleon, I'm pretty sure divine > arcane, specially once we remember Divine Bard and Shugenja are around.
Focusing on divine means you can use Divine Metamagic and don't have to bother with Extra Spell cheese, you simply have all spells by default. There are also more classes with discount spell lists for the divine side then there are for arcane. When it comes to Chameleon, I'm pretty sure divine > arcane, specially once we remember Divine Bard and Shugenja are around.
Add to that domains, paladin, ranger, and adept spell list. The divine chameleon is not hurting for good spells to cast.
Add to that domains, paladin, ranger, and adept spell list. The divine chameleon is not hurting for good spells to cast.
But on the arcane side you get access to Trapsmith spells! Greater Dispel Magic as a 3rd level spell! Haste as a 1st level spell! The ability to make the cheapest utility items this side of a zeroficer!
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Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes
Finding out that the ennui and cynicism of our times is not, after all, an unavoidable unreverseable fate does kind of throw your world-view off, potentially.
But on the arcane side you get access to Trapsmith spells! Greater Dispel Magic as a 3rd level spell! Haste as a 1st level spell! The ability to make the cheapest utility items this side of a zeroficer!
I'm not saying you won't miss a few things, but you get similar goodies on the divine side. Greater Dispel Magic as a 4th level spell, Lesser Restoration as a 1st level spell, Hunter's Eye, Favor of the Martyr.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Arcane Focus, but until you can do both/get access to more spells, I think divine has the edge.
Focusing on divine means you can use Divine Metamagic and don't have to bother with Extra Spell cheese, you simply have all spells by default. There are also more classes with discount spell lists for the divine side then there are for arcane. When it comes to Chameleon, I'm pretty sure divine > arcane, specially once we remember Divine Bard and Shugenja are around.
You can't really use DMM as an argument here though. A chameleon can't qualify for it without a dip in a turning class, at which point you'd probably be better off just using that class to begin with. With persistence out of the equation you've got arcane=divine at best.
After all, a chameleon doesn't have any more difficulty aquiring new spells for his book than a wizard does. The extra spell trick seems entirely unnecessary, especially since you have to have casting ability outside of chameleon to use it. It'd be useful if the DM was stingy about giving access to new spells, but he'd probably just nerf the trick out of existence in that case anyway.
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Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell
Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTwerewolf
[...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
Whether you have Cleric levels or not, Cleric is usually stronger than chameleon. Dipping the first cleric level doesn't suddenly introduce it as an alternative.
Besides, most arcane chameleons are also going to be dipping 3+ levels in a casting class anyway. Cutting that option out of a Divine-focused build seems arbitrary.
You can't really use DMM as an argument here though. A chameleon can't qualify for it without a dip in a turning class, at which point you'd probably be better off just using that class to begin with. With persistence out of the equation you've got arcane=divine at best.
After all, a chameleon doesn't have any more difficulty aquiring new spells for his book than a wizard does. The extra spell trick seems entirely unnecessary, especially since you have to have casting ability outside of chameleon to use it. It'd be useful if the DM was stingy about giving access to new spells, but he'd probably just nerf the trick out of existence in that case anyway.
I disagree with you here. The Chameleon gets access to all divine spells in existence, and can apply persist to any of the personal ones. A dip into Cleric is one of the classic Chameleon builds, because you can grab undead domain for free extra turning. Aspect of the Earth Hunter+Bite of the WereBear gets you all of the important feats for melee and an ungodly strength score.
It also allows you to make one of the best grapple builds in the game. You stack spells like Balor Nimbus and Body Blades to do a lot of damage automatically whenever you are in a grapple.
The difference here is that you may want to learn spells while actually out doing things, rather than in ye olde magik shoppe. It is true that I can buy every spell in existence, but this is both cheaper and more mobile.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes
Finding out that the ennui and cynicism of our times is not, after all, an unavoidable unreverseable fate does kind of throw your world-view off, potentially.
I disagree with you here. The Chameleon gets access to all divine spells in existence, and can apply persist to any of the personal ones. A dip into Cleric is one of the classic Chameleon builds, because you can grab undead domain for free extra turning. Aspect of the Earth Hunter+Bite of the WereBear gets you all of the important feats for melee and an ungodly strength score.
It also allows you to make one of the best grapple builds in the game. You stack spells like Balor Nimbus and Body Blades to do a lot of damage automatically whenever you are in a grapple.
The difference here is that you may want to learn spells while actually out doing things, rather than in ye olde magik shoppe. It is true that I can buy every spell in existence, but this is both cheaper and more mobile.
Then why not use early entry shenanigans with the levels before chameleon to qualify for incantatrix and advance chameleon casting with it? Being able to persist any and all arcane spells seems just as worthwhile as being able to persist any and all divine ones.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell
Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTwerewolf
[...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
Then why not use early entry shenanigans with the levels before chameleon to qualify for incantatrix and advance chameleon casting with it? Being able to persist any and all arcane spells seems just as worthwhile as being able to persist any and all divine ones.
Other than closing all of the other options for a Chameleon? A persistmeleon can take every level of chameleon and still make full use of its other abilities. An incantatrix chameleon has to pour every ounce of its resources into prc reqs and the incantatrix only supports the arcane side.
Which isn't to say it is mechanically inferior, but a divine persist chameleon can still pull off the entire arcane list of up to 6th levels spells. An incantatrix chameleon gets to cast just those arcane spells, and loses all of its divine casting as well as the other chameleon effects.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes
Finding out that the ennui and cynicism of our times is not, after all, an unavoidable unreverseable fate does kind of throw your world-view off, potentially.
And, a DMM Persistameleon will get to Persist a full list of Divine buffs, and then use Arcane spells during combat.
Cleric1 with Destroy Undead, and the DLCS Sun domain gets two pools of turning, and a dip for Dread Necro to get a third is not out of the question. Throw in the Undeath Domain for quite a few turn attempts. Since these dips happen before chameleon, it doesn't screw up your casting progression at all.
I'm still not convinced, but I'll concede for lack of any solid argument to the contrary.
I still say that's closer to divine=arcane more than divine > arcane on a chameleon.
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Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell
Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTwerewolf
[...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
I'm still not convinced, but I'll concede for lack of any solid argument to the contrary.
I still say that's closer to divine=arcane more than divine > arcane on a chameleon.
I think it shifts over the life of a chameleon personally. It is just that by the time Arcane completely catches up, a Chameleon should be able to do both.
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