Doctor Who Thread III: Reverse the Polarity of the Neutron Flow

[Tvtyrant]

I invented a Doctor Who drinking game lately. Everytime someone uses an automatic weapon and it doesn't do anything (so basically whenever someone uses and automatic weapon) you take a shot. Usually amounts to at least a shot and episode, so it is great for marathons.

[Sunken Valley]

Originally Posted by Dienekes

And Quentin Tarantino is an arrogant narcissist, Marlon Brando was an utter ****, and Stanley Kubrick was an abusive control freak. What does it matter? You either like the stories, and shows or you don't.

I know, it's just really disappointing when someone you like turns out to be a jerk. I have felt the same for the more public revelations of Gibson, Jackson (Michael) and Polanski. It alsomeans that it will start to bleed into his work . And then he will do something so bad he'll get into trouble. Also I wanted to show everyone.

[Thufir]

Originally Posted by Tvtyrant

I invented a Doctor Who drinking game lately. Everytime someone uses an automatic weapon and it doesn't do anything (so basically whenever someone uses and automatic weapon) you take a shot. Usually amounts to at least a shot and episode, so it is great for marathons.

But some episodes (Like, say The Poison Sky), you have so many soldiers you'd just kill yourself with alcohol poisoning in the space of a single scene!

[Hopeless]

The end did feel arbitary, so who gets to tell Rory's father and Amy's side of the family what happened to them because Rory's dad is going to try to find out!

Spoiler

I was wondering what if instead the real reason he can't take them adventuring with him is because by taking that leap of faith they've inherited the temporal problems that was effecting Manhatten so in essence they're stuck in their own time with no means of time travelling but they get to go back to their own life instead of some spiteful act from a surviving Angel?

[Tvtyrant]

Originally Posted by Thufir

But some episodes (Like, say The Poison Sky), you have so many soldiers you'd just kill yourself with alcohol poisoning in the space of a single scene!

Cap it at 10 an episode? Or just take shots of cheap beer to offset the high rate of drinking.

[Dienekes]

Originally Posted by Thufir

But some episodes (Like, say The Poison Sky), you have so many soldiers you'd just kill yourself with alcohol poisoning in the space of a single scene!

Except automatic weapons actual do something in that one, eventually anyway.

Maybe have it as scenes where automatic weapons don't do anything. So instead of taking 30+ shots you'd take maybe 4.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Joining the party a little late, but oh well.

Spoiler

Overall I did like Angels take Manhattan. It was good as an episode, but it left me with a few questions.
What was the point of the Statue/Angel of Liberty? It did exactly nothing, is always observed, and well, angels move FAST, this one? You could hear the footsteps and it wasn't fast.
Children/Cherubs? While I can accept that Weeping Angels reproduce somehow, and kid versions of something scary is always creepy, I don't quite understand this. Sure the giggling disembodied voices add to the horror feel, but since when do angels talk? Or were these a subspecies of Weeping Angels?
The non-angel statues? Late in the episode we see two statues moving that are clearly NOT angels, just regular statues, what was up with them? I don't mind them, and it seems like a logical evolution to be able to hide better, but we never really got any explanation here, so what was the point and why couldn't they have been replaced with normal weeping angels instead?

And why did Amy and Rory get this sort of send-off?! They've been building up for their departure the whole season, making it a point to show that they've been traveling with the Doctor for a long time, that they have another life and that they're clearly thinking about leaving and having a more normal life. Then they pull this? I mean, minus the plot-holes it's a decent enough episode, but wouldn't it have been nicer if they had gotten out of this as normal, gone into the TARDIS and the Doctor doing his little dance around the console asking "Right, where next?" and them just saying "Home." with some finality to it. Possibly explaining that after this last near death incident they're done with adventure, they just want a normal, calm, relaxed, safe life with jobs and laundry and watching TV on the couch? Personally I think that would have been mote bitter-sweet and made more sense than the contrived couldn't/shouldn't paradox at the end (especially since London and Cardiff never seems to get those problems). And lets be honest, all but one of the nu!who companions have gotten sad, permanent send-offs and the one who just said "Right, I'm done." was one of the least liked ones (Martha), wouldn't it have been nice to do something a little different?

But on the upside I DID like River in this episode, which was a nice surprise because I've hated her with a passion for the longest time. But as someone pointed out, the story didn't revolve around her this time and while she's still the intellectual bad-ass she's not the"know it all, better than the Doctor at everything"-intellectual bad-ass in this episode, so much more likable.

[Kato]

Originally Posted by NikitaDarkstar

wouldn't it have been nicer if they had gotten out of this as normal

Someone still doesn't get the prupose of Moffat's writing Hint: It's not to make you feel warm and cozy, but to make you suffer

[Soras Teva Gee]

I'm not sure I'd count the Ponds out of it yet.

I mean obviously out of the Companion game, but they can totally get 'em out of that timeline. Being locked in another dimension didn't stop Rose from showing up one more time now did it?

Just wait until the next truly major crisis comes along and the Doctor needs help.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Originally Posted by Kato

Someone still doesn't get the prupose of Moffat's writing Hint: It's not to make you feel warm and cozy, but to make you suffer

Yhea, but you need to give your victims a break every once in a while too, otherwise they just get used to the pain. :p

[Eldan]

It doesn't make me suffer, it makes me roll my eyes.

[Reluctance]

Re: The Ponds, TATM, and the departure

Spoiler

Karen wanted a sense of finality, and in a sense, you need a certain level of BS to achieve that in Who. We all know how the sendoff was a hack job following in-universe logic, but I wonder how people would give a "nope, never coming back" without asspulls or directly ripping off Rose's trapped in another universe.

I mean, I've already said how I would've preferred the story to end. I'm still curious how other people would put companions forever outside The Doctor's reach if the actors involved specifically wanted to avoid backsies.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Originally Posted by Reluctance

Re: The Ponds, TATM, and the departure

Spoiler

Karen wanted a sense of finality, and in a sense, you need a certain level of BS to achieve that in Who. We all know how the sendoff was a hack job following in-universe logic, but I wonder how people would give a "nope, never coming back" without asspulls or directly ripping off Rose's trapped in another universe.

I mean, I've already said how I would've preferred the story to end. I'm still curious how other people would put companions forever outside The Doctor's reach if the actors involved specifically wanted to avoid backsies.

Spoiler

"No Doctor I have a husband, three kids and a dog to think of! I'm not going to risk making my kids motherless because you want to go on a silly adventure!"

[Sunken Valley]

Originally Posted by Reluctance

Re: The Ponds, TATM, and the departure

Spoiler

Karen wanted a sense of finality, and in a sense, you need a certain level of BS to achieve that in Who. We all know how the sendoff was a hack job following in-universe logic, but I wonder how people would give a "nope, never coming back" without asspulls or directly ripping off Rose's trapped in another universe.

I mean, I've already said how I would've preferred the story to end. I'm still curious how other people would put companions forever outside The Doctor's reach if the actors involved specifically wanted to avoid backsies.

Exterminate!

[dps]

Originally Posted by NikitaDarkstar

Spoiler

"No Doctor I have a husband, three kids and a dog to think of! I'm not going to risk making my kids motherless because you want to go on a silly adventure!"

I think that there were at least 2 other clear ways to write the Ponds out.

Spoiler

First, they were talking in "The Power of Three" about choosing between adventuring with The Doctor and living a normal life, so an obvious idea would have been for them to simply choose not to adventure with him any more. A second way that I had thought would be good would be for them to find out about how River died in "Silence in the Library" and be upset with The Doctor over what happened (though it really wasn't his fault).

[Tergon]

Or there's the good old-fashioned Blaze Of Glory death. Amy's mind built the foundations of the entire Universe, which essentially makes her God. And Rory is one of the oldest and most respected warriors in the Universe who dedicates his time to healing the sick. You're telling me they couldn't figure out how to turn two plot devices like that into something epic?
Have the Cybermen capture Amy to figure out how her brain works, so that Rory could fight his way through to save her and then detonate the ship to stop the Cyber Controller using Amy's brain to rewrite reality or something. Have the last of the Silent hunting down Amy and Rory as revenge for what happened to them, and play it straight that sometimes the Doctor really can't save everyone when the Silent are too damn cunning for him to stop them killing the Ponds. Or if you want Angels, have them go after a Macguffin of some kind, and have the Ponds put themselves in the Angels' way - set themselves into a quantum stasis the same as the Angels and put themselves into an eternal staring contest to make sure the Angels would permanently be defeated by their sacrifice.

In short, give me something cool. Not this. They deserved better than this.

[The Extinguisher]

Originally Posted by dps

I think that there were at least 2 other clear ways to write the Ponds out.

Spoiler

First, they were talking in "The Power of Three" about choosing between adventuring with The Doctor and living a normal life, so an obvious idea would have been for them to simply choose not to adventure with him any more. A second way that I had thought would be good would be for them to find out about how River died in "Silence in the Library" and be upset with The Doctor over what happened (though it really wasn't his fault).

Spoiler

Except that the entire point of "The Power of Three" is that Amy and Rory are never going to choose to travel with the Doctor. They will put their own lives on hold just for him. They aren't going to simply decide to stay at home. They needed something external that was going to keep them away from the Doctor for good. This works.

Not to mention it really serves to highlight how dangerous it is travelling with the Doctor, even when you're the Ponds, you don't always get to go out in a blaze of glory or in a dramatic way. Sometimes you just die because you stopped to look at something interesting.
(And making Amy choose Rory over the Doctor was also a nice touch)

[Soras Teva Gee]

Originally Posted by Tergon

In short, give me something cool. Not this. They deserved better than this.

Not to nitpick but as your solutions seem to involve killing them I disagree.

I know I would not be happy with the Ponds having been through so much and not getting the chance to be together for the rest of their natural days.

However depositing them back home happily ever after would really lack some finality, and probably get its own cries of BS. We'd probably see complaining up and down about Eleven and Amy would not permanently quit each other voluntarily and how arbitrary that was. (I still might prefer it but from a story sense that's just not where the characters are)

That leaves pretty much stranding them away from the Doctor's reach in some "permanent" way. Course that's some level of bull like anytime the Doctor can't do something with time travel, but setting it up like this gives you a good way to make a break that when they do get out its for the last hurrah and then they go home because its not the same anymore.

Could have been much smarter on the BS though... I mean seriously the Doc was in NYC what five years before that as Ten, and across the pond in England no more then five years the other direction multiple times. Do a little slow path travel for crying out loud you ageless demigod! Hell Doctor you can land while Ten is busy trying to save Dalek Sec with the Tardis parked somewhere out of the way and spend your time technobabbling up a way to fly out of that blizzard with the Tardis.

[Xondoure]

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

Not to nitpick but as your solutions seem to involve killing them I disagree.

I know I would not be happy with the Ponds having been through so much and not getting the chance to be together for the rest of their natural days.

However depositing them back home happily ever after would really lack some finality, and probably get its own cries of BS. We'd probably see complaining up and down about Eleven and Amy would not permanently quit each other voluntarily and how arbitrary that was. (I still might prefer it but from a story sense that's just not where the characters are)

That leaves pretty much stranding them away from the Doctor's reach in some "permanent" way. Course that's some level of bull like anytime the Doctor can't do something with time travel, but setting it up like this gives you a good way to make a break that when they do get out its for the last hurrah and then they go home because its not the same anymore.

Could have been much smarter on the BS though... I mean seriously the Doc was in NYC what five years before that as Ten, and across the pond in England no more then five years the other direction multiple times. Do a little slow path travel for crying out loud you ageless demigod! Hell Doctor you can land while Ten is busy trying to save Dalek Sec with the Tardis parked somewhere out of the way and spend your time technobabbling up a way to fly out of that blizzard with the Tardis.

A thought just occurred to me. Considering the paradox over New York it's possible we might get Tennant back as he was during that adventure for some good old Doctor in collaboration with Doctor day saving.

[Tergon]

That's fine, I would have been sad to see Rory and Amy die as well. But that's so much what the Doctor was building toward these past few episodes, wasn't it - terrified of losing them, or outright saying to Rory's father that he would not let the Ponds die.

Spoiler

And let's be clear, the episode ends with the Doctor standing heartbroken at Rory and Amy's grave. It's not like they survived, is it? Yeah, yeah, timey-wimey living in the past and all that, but the fact is that by the time the credits rolled, in-universe they are both dead.

If you're not going to give them their happy ending - saying goodbye to the Doctor and going about their normal human lives - then give them a proper send-off. My suggestions had them dying because I like the thought of them going out fighting with a bang. But that's not needed either, is it? Make them into walking paradoxes that the Doctor can't take into the TARDIS so that they have to go back home and stay there. Have a time-displaced version of the couple go back to their normal lives, while the future version who've not been zapped yet go off to travel the stars together for the rest of their lives. I don't know, have the Angels' paradox combine with the timey-wimey nonsense to mutate them both into Time Lords and get thrown into an alternate Universe with their own TARDIS.

Spoiler

What we got instead was the worst of both worlds. They fought badly against a poorly-justified enemy, lost the fight right at the end for no reason other than for the viewers to go "Aw, shucks", got trapped in a ridiculously-explained paradox, and died without us seeing one second of their "happy" lives together. It's not satisfying for the viewers because we saw nothing but their graves. It's not satisfying for the Ponds because they lost everything - the Doctor and his travels and their lives with their family and friends. It's not satisfying for the Doctor because he lost. It's just the two best companions (in my opinion) dying for no reason and in the stupidest way possible.

I can only say it again: They deserved better.

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by NikitaDarkstar

Spoiler

"No Doctor I have a husband, three kids and a dog to think of! I'm not going to risk making my kids motherless because you want to go on a silly adventure!"

Spoiler

Except Amy can't have any more children due to what they did to her back at Demon's Run - remember the (half arsed) divorce sub plot in Asylum?

Originally Posted by Xondoure

A thought just occurred to me. Considering the paradox over New York it's possible we might get Tennant back as he was during that adventure for some good old Doctor in collaboration with Doctor day saving.

True - we have enough reboot Doctors for a Three Doctors style story, if somebody could convince Eccleston and if they extend it into a near serial length story like the old series (or at least a two parter).

[Reluctance]

Originally Posted by Brother Oni

Spoiler

Except Amy can't have any more children due to what they did to her back at Demon's Run - remember the (half arsed) divorce sub plot in Asylum?

You got the impression that both Amy and Rory wanted the experience of actually raising children. Adoptions happen. If I were in charge, I would've mentioned the Ponds getting a letter at the beginning of the episode, and having the adoptee cement the "sorry, we can't take as many risks now" finale. Some extra timey-wimeyness (while there are distinct differences, remember how the TARDIS reacted to the other person who kept coming back from the dead) would be nice to further seal the deal.

True - we have enough reboot Doctors for a Three Doctors style story, if somebody could convince Eccleston and if they extend it into a near serial length story like the old series (or at least a two parter).

The old episodes were about half the length of the current ones, so the old serials would be about 2 or 3 current episodes.

Still, I think they strongly dissuaded that with Father's Day. Even in Three Doctors, they needed special time lord intervention to let it work properly. Without a time lord society to help clean things up, you'll be facing lots of reapers.

[Xondoure]

Originally Posted by Reluctance

You got the impression that both Amy and Rory wanted the experience of actually raising children. Adoptions happen. If I were in charge, I would've mentioned the Ponds getting a letter at the beginning of the episode, and having the adoptee cement the "sorry, we can't take as many risks now" finale. Some extra timey-wimeyness (while there are distinct differences, remember how the TARDIS reacted to the other person who kept coming back from the dead) would be nice to further seal the deal.



The old episodes were about half the length of the current ones, so the old serials would be about 2 or 3 current episodes.

Still, I think they strongly dissuaded that with Father's Day. Even in Three Doctors, they needed special time lord intervention to let it work properly. Without a time lord society to help clean things up, you'll be facing lots of reapers.

So make it about the Reapers.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Originally Posted by Reluctance

You got the impression that both Amy and Rory wanted the experience of actually raising children. Adoptions happen. If I were in charge, I would've mentioned the Ponds getting a letter at the beginning of the episode, and having the adoptee cement the "sorry, we can't take as many risks now" finale. Some extra timey-wimeyness (while there are distinct differences, remember how the TARDIS reacted to the other person who kept coming back from the dead) would be nice to further seal the deal.



The old episodes were about half the length of the current ones, so the old serials would be about 2 or 3 current episodes.

Still, I think they strongly dissuaded that with Father's Day. Even in Three Doctors, they needed special time lord intervention to let it work properly. Without a time lord society to help clean things up, you'll be facing lots of reapers.

I was thinking adoptions as well.

And Either let it be about Reapers, or another trip outside of this reality which seems to happen every so often. I dunno, I'm sure they could figure something out. (Granted this seasons "figure it out" has been...... bad.)

@Brother Oni I'm trying very hard to not remember that since it messed up an overall good episode and made no sense what so ever.

[Aotrs Commander]

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

I'm not sure I'd count the Ponds out of it yet.

I mean obviously out of the Companion game, but they can totally get 'em out of that timeline. Being locked in another dimension didn't stop Rose from showing up one more time now did it?

Just wait until the next truly major crisis comes along and the Doctor needs help.

Considering the actors were both pretty emphatic about leaving the Ponds with a definitieve ending and not coming back to the well one more time, I'm afraid that seems unlikely. Maybe they might change their minds in the future or something, but it might be as likely as Christopher Eccelston returning for a cameo. (That's one thing NuWho is missing so far, a "the X Doctors" episode...)

Originally Posted by Tergon

I can only say it again: They deserved better.

I can only agree.

[Dienekes]

Originally Posted by Tergon

I can only say it again: They deserved better.

While I personally would have wanted the Roman to go down swinging, and to have a conclusion where they get to give the Silence exactly what they deserve, I don't think the ending they were given was too bad on an emotional level.

It had the definitive heartfelt goodbye, they were able to live long happy lives without being completely screwed over. It didn't feel right, but I wasn't shaking my hand in the air cursing either. Like the rest of this season has been, it was just sort of average and mildly disappointing.

At least they didn't loose years worth of character development in a matter of seconds. Yes, I am still bitter about Donna.

[dps]

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

Not to nitpick but as your solutions seem to involve killing them I disagree.

I know I would not be happy with the Ponds having been through so much and not getting the chance to be together for the rest of their natural days.

However depositing them back home happily ever after would really lack some finality, and probably get its own cries of BS. We'd probably see complaining up and down about Eleven and Amy would not permanently quit each other voluntarily and how arbitrary that was. (I still might prefer it but from a story sense that's just not where the characters are)

Well, a lot has been made in the revived show about how The Doctor has ruined the lives of his companions, but it's just not really true. I suppose that you could argue that it's more true in Nu WhoTo than in Classic Who, but I don't think even that really holds up. To a great extent, just being dropped off to go on with your life has pretty much been the "standard" exit for companions. Depending on who you count as a companion, there have been about 40 of them (on-screen; I'm not getting into expanded universe stuff). Let's see, leaving Amy and Rory out of it for now, off-hand I'd say about half a dozen of them ended up worse off than they were before they travelled with The Doctor, but about the same number ended up better off, a few we either don't know what happened to them or don't know enough about their situation before they met him to draw any conclusion, and the rest ended up about the same as if they had never travelled with him. I don't have time to do it right now, but I'll take a more detailed look at this later.

[Weezer]

Originally Posted by Dienekes

While I personally would have wanted the Roman to go down swinging, and to have a conclusion where they get to give the Silence exactly what they deserve, I don't think the ending they were given was too bad on an emotional level.

It had the definitive heartfelt goodbye, they were able to live long happy lives without being completely screwed over. It didn't feel right, but I wasn't shaking my hand in the air cursing either. Like the rest of this season has been, it was just sort of average and mildly disappointing.

At least they didn't loose years worth of character development in a matter of seconds. Yes, I am still bitter about Donna.

Hadn't thought about it like that, when compared to the other new who companions I'd say it ranks second. After Martha, who in many ways outgrew the Doctor and I think was handeled excellently in how she left (if jideously shortshafted in the rest of her run), but far above Rose's parallel universe (if only due to the doctor angst and moping it led to) and Donna's let's undo everything ending.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Originally Posted by Weezer

Hadn't thought about it like that, when compared to the other new who companions I'd say it ranks second. After Martha, who in many ways outgrew the Doctor and I think was handeled excellently in how she left (if jideously shortshafted in the rest of her run), but far above Rose's parallel universe (if only due to the doctor angst and moping it led to) and Donna's let's undo everything ending.

Technically Rose's ending wasn't bad, it was the Doctors reaction to it that made me just want to stab something. (Moping for an ENTIRE season? Really? Even if I don't like Martha I felt bad for her ending up being a rebound-companion.) But the send-off itself wasn't bad, but the moping could have ended after "I'm burning up a sun just to say goodbye".

[Soras Teva Gee]

Originally Posted by Tergon

That's fine, I would have been sad to see Rory and Amy die as well. But that's so much what the Doctor was building toward these past few episodes, wasn't it - terrified of losing them, or outright saying to Rory's father that he would not let the Ponds die.

I find the difference meaningful. We obviously wouldn't see them live out their natural lives on screen as a practical notion as they are still young actors and so forth. However set off in a way that gives them the most important thing (each other) is what I require and its what they recieved.

I can loosely prefer it happen at home but that's really a detail since Moffrat never really built that tertiary ring of people the way Davies did. We only now met Rory's dad, Amy IIRC lived alone, we never really saw friend of their's. I feel bad for Rory's dad, but its not some horrible thing. The easier solution would be not introducing him.

But that's not needed either, is it? Make them into walking paradoxes that the Doctor can't take into the TARDIS so that they have to go back home and stay there.

This is workable-ish because you just change the final scene... but I dare say I think you'd be complaining about that if you got it.

Why them and not everyone there involved? The Doctor and River have freaky timelord immunity? Not that what we got keeps isn't without its logical flaws but here... what then keeps the Doctor from visiting them? Are we going into being even more arbitrary they can't even be near him or time-wimey-boom?

Its not like a good portion of the show hasn't always taken place in the 'present' time.

My suggestions had them dying because I like the thought of them going out fighting with a bang.

Egads how terrible for a Doctor Who episode. Violence is the resolution? ICK!

No offense but this is an example of why I firmly believe fans are on the whole... terrible writers. Fandom ideas always seem to run to being bigger and actiony and 'epic' whatever the object of the fandom is. Which is a especially bad for DW, though far from the only case.

Have a time-displaced version of the couple go back to their normal lives, while the future version who've not been zapped yet go off to travel the stars together for the rest of their lives. I don't know, have the Angels' paradox combine with the timey-wimey nonsense to mutate them both into Time Lords and get thrown into an alternate Universe with their own TARDIS.

Even worse. Special snowflake syndrome.

Cripes that's worse then River and River's background I try not to think about too much or I start to raaaage.

Jack is the absolute limit on specialness in Companions thank you very much. More then that and its isn't just missing the bulls-eye its missing the whole damn target.

Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander

Considering the actors were both pretty emphatic about leaving the Ponds with a definitieve ending and not coming back to the well one more time, I'm afraid that seems unlikely. Maybe they might change their minds in the future or something, but it might be as likely as Christopher Eccelston returning for a cameo. (That's one thing NuWho is missing so far, a "the X Doctors" episode...)

I can't speak to that, I follow the meta-end of things like that.

Being completely honest Moffrat doesn't seem like he would write something like the Stolen Earth anyways. He's shown much less interest in that tertiary ring around the Doctor that Davies had. We've seen people outside the Ponds, but I'm not sure we've seen them continued in the same way as say Harriet Jones was. I'd be completely unsurprised if we didn't see Kate Stewart again for example.

However that might change, say whenever Moffrat is getting set to leave and maybe decides on a Grand Finale for the era.

Originally Posted by Weezer

Hadn't thought about it like that, when compared to the other new who companions I'd say it ranks second. After Martha, who in many ways outgrew the Doctor and I think was handeled excellently in how she left (if jideously shortshafted in the rest of her run), but far above Rose's parallel universe (if only due to the doctor angst and moping it led to) and Donna's let's undo everything ending.

Yeah Martha is really the only major companion that left on good terms in NuWho. And shows really the way to do it, you need a certain level of distance from the Doctor that Amy at least never had developed.

And yeah if anyone deserved better it was Donna. Which is probably the point. There's something that could have been fixed with the Plot Device of Rassilon!