Skyscraper Graveyard II: Jealousy and Ambition

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

I shy away from casual blasphemy when I need an invective, but Jesus Christ Thanqol. This is a hell of a game. It's painful - I keep thinking about hinges that are obvious to me and not the other players, as well as the reverse and how the interactions would go - but that's a sign of integrity I think. Some questions if I may?

:D

Brain parasites. What would stop a Mage with Life 4 or so from just crippling the thing? Is this one of those things that's more of a problem because the crew lacks a Thyrsus? Will they run into things that are relative cake that would be crippling if they lacked an Acanthus or Obrimos? How the hay did you even conceive of this particular plate; I erroneously thought the abyss only truly manifested due to Awakened activity?

You do not want to throw too much Life magic at a Paradox Manifestation with Life as it's origin Arcana. That's just asking for trouble. Life would be useful for limiting it's spread but not for direct attacks.

Of course there are problems that are harder if you lack certain Arcana. It's the way it goes.

The Abyss normally manifests only due to Awakened activity? That's a very good point. A very good point, yes.

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

On a completely unrelated topic; Martial Arts. I understand the merits have been disallowed on account of being unbalancing, with the main problem being mix and match martial-art stacking.
It occurred to me earlier today, but I'm not sure I was aware you even could stack them, use more than one at once. Is that actually how they are supposed to work?

The main problem isn't mix and match stacking. The main problems are:
- Multiple actions, which is the difference between 'I kill a dude' and 'I wipe the entire party'.
- Power creep, wherein Brawl 4 isn't worth as much as Brawl 2 MA 4. I especially don't like investing merit dots in fighting skills when merit dots are your awesome backgrounds/social connections/narratively interesting things.

Originally Posted by Anarion

See, I'm just Obrimos to the core. I actually wish I'd put more in prime as forces and prime make by far the most sense to me, although I didn't really "get" prime until I saw it in action by Cyprus, then I realized that it's terrifying and amazing.

Ah good, objective achieved.

[Tiki Snakes]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

I especially don't like investing merit dots in fighting skills when merit dots are your awesome backgrounds/social connections/narratively interesting things.

I think this in particular makes sense to me.
Question;
As a backup plan I had in mind before the concept of this abyss resolving brain-worm-be-gone came up, I had a desperate course of action in mind so as to not spread abyss everywhere and get the squiggly out of my head.
I'm pretty sure it'd either not have worked at all or risked lobotomising Jack. I'm also not sure he even had enough Dots to pull it off, frankly.

But essentially the plan was to use either space or some mixture of space and time to physically seperate the two of them, him and Wurmy. Like, teleporting himself and only himself, leaving behind things that weren't him (like his clothes, brain-worm and possibly some of his previous meal) behind, or abusing his timeline to put him physically behind the current location of the worm.
Perhaps even simply using time as a direct attack to wither the worm to death and hope for the best.

Would any of that have even worked enough to go horribly wrong? Even more unlikely, would any of it worked enough for Jack to even have a chance to survive the attempt?

[Anarion]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

Would any of that have even worked enough to go horribly wrong? Even more unlikely, would any of it worked enough for Jack to even have a chance to survive the attempt?

I think you would have been compelled to steal people's clothes and say "come with me if you want to live" at some point.

[the_druid_droid]

Actually, in the wake of Tiki's question, I now have to wonder - what's the effect of using Death magic on a Life-born Abyssal manifestation rooted in one's own brain?

I'm guessing it's a "pray you don't fail" kind of thing.

[Tiki Snakes]

Originally Posted by Anarion

I think you would have been compelled to steal people's clothes and say "come with me if you want to live" at some point.

Oh, I don't know. Would have is very much a may yet, really. So very little of that mental vignette feels out of character that I honestly can't promise that isn't a bit of an augury going on there.

Originally Posted by the_druid_droid

Actually, in the wake of Tiki's question, I now have to wonder - what's the effect of using Death magic on a Life-born Abyssal manifestation rooted in one's own brain?

I'm guessing it's a "pray you don't fail" kind of thing.

The thing with both versions of this that makes me sure it ends badly even on a success is brainworm corpse in the brainmeat, but whilst I work up the mental energy to post again, I thought I'd ask.

Edit - Can't even stay awake, let alone figure out what to do.
Suggestions on a postcard, gang. Double up on the physical cleaning up (terribly, as dicepools for the task are pretty pathetic), double up on the cooking (Terribly, as dicepools for the task are pretty pathetic), or improvise something less likely to help but that might play to his strengths better?
(If this was pretend christmas, this would be easy, but there's no obvious musical tradition for thanksgiving so that leaves the no-thought option off the table).

Further Edit - I've no idea what my current willpower is actually supposed to be. I've scratched it off down to 4 from 5. My assumption was that spending it as I did was a pretty much permanent thing till spent back up via xp, but my brain has pretty much failed altogether at this point and I'm no longer sure.

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

I think this in particular makes sense to me.
Question;
As a backup plan I had in mind before the concept of this abyss resolving brain-worm-be-gone came up, I had a desperate course of action in mind so as to not spread abyss everywhere and get the squiggly out of my head.
I'm pretty sure it'd either not have worked at all or risked lobotomising Jack. I'm also not sure he even had enough Dots to pull it off, frankly.

But essentially the plan was to use either space or some mixture of space and time to physically seperate the two of them, him and Wurmy. Like, teleporting himself and only himself, leaving behind things that weren't him (like his clothes, brain-worm and possibly some of his previous meal) behind, or abusing his timeline to put him physically behind the current location of the worm.
Perhaps even simply using time as a direct attack to wither the worm to death and hope for the best.

Would any of that have even worked enough to go horribly wrong? Even more unlikely, would any of it worked enough for Jack to even have a chance to survive the attempt?

Using Space 3, you have access to the spell 'sever the threads' which degrades sympathetic connections. This spell is way more useful than it first looks because a sympathetic connection isn't purely relevant to Space magic. If you sever a connection between you and your car it's guaranteed it'll get stolen or something, the paperwork will get lost - you've eroded the bond that keeps you and it together, the connection that makes it 'yours'. If you sever a connection between you and your wife you'll drift apart - perhaps pleasantly, but somehow you won't be as close any more.

You can also sever the connection between you and, say, a crime scene. This will mean that nothing in the crime scene connects back to you. You can also sever the connection between you and your spilled blood which will damage/obscure genetic connections etc.

The complication in severing the sympathetic connection between you and something in your head is that it won't be connected to the inside of your head. This means the chances of you getting hit by a car, your skull breaking open and brainworms spilling over the street just went up. On the other hand, if you were about to try brain surgery to pull it out this could be a helpful step.

Using time as a direct attack has advantages and disadvantage. The disadvantage is, say, if this is a larval stage of the thing's life cycle, you speed it up, and it grows into some kind of Abyssal butterfly that also bursts out of your skull and flies around.


More specifically, it's really hard to target things which are part of a pattern with Space alone. You can't teleport someone's heart out of their chest into your hand and take a bite out of it, for instance. You'd need Life, at least, to understand the limits of the thing. Also, if you teleported a parasitic organism out of your brain you'd suffer cranial bleeding and possibly death. It's a Life 4/Space 4 trick, I think.

Originally Posted by the_druid_droid

Actually, in the wake of Tiki's question, I now have to wonder - what's the effect of using Death magic on a Life-born Abyssal manifestation rooted in one's own brain?

I'm guessing it's a "pray you don't fail" kind of thing.

You can draw your own conclusions about what's involved at aiming a Death spell at your own brain.

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

Further Edit - I've no idea what my current willpower is actually supposed to be. I've scratched it off down to 4 from 5. My assumption was that spending it as I did was a pretty much permanent thing till spent back up via xp, but my brain has pretty much failed altogether at this point and I'm no longer sure.

Willpower has DOTS, which is your MAX WILLPOWER, and POINTS which are your TEMPORARY WILLPOWER. You only spend dots for the biggest possible effects, like making a spell Permanent. You can spend a point for a +3 bonus to a roll. Points recover through indulging a virtue or a vice.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

To be fair, at the time I was pretty strongly in "I don't have the faintest idea what I'm doing, so screw optimisation I'll build for concept" mode, really, and had to be talked into optimising at all by the Storyteller to avoid sucking completely.

If I had been worrying about building a powerful character and enforcing my will upon the world, taking on everything that crossed my path, I'd have built a significantly different character. (Or none at all, depending on if I could even figure out how to do such a thing).

Oh, I am not speaking of optimization, strictly concept. Prime/spirit 4 is like, my base concept. Because it leaves me a dot left to learn. I honestly put life higher than spirit out of a strictly metagame thought pattern. There was a Life Areta, yes, but the one which spoke to me most was the Shaman Areta. I imagine he would have gone on a pilgrimage after whatever his game was, to learn about new perspectives. Become an advisor for a changeling court. Run as an omega wolf for a bit to learn their religion. Areta is everything good abou everything I hate about the new age movement. Always, always build for concept!

I'm just saying, my concept is currently watching you guys and saying "it's funny, I could handle this exact situation, but I can't guarantee I would survive long enough to get to this exact situation."

On a completely unrelated topic; Martial Arts. I understand the merits have been disallowed on account of being unbalancing, with the main problem being mix and match martial-art stacking.
It occurred to me earlier today, but I'm not sure I was aware you even could stack them, use more than one at once. Is that actually how they are supposed to work?

The names are conceptual, and aren't necessarily accurate. Boxing is the Aggressive Striking style, and works with any aggressive striking method; boxing, jailhouse rock, capoeira. Kung fu is defensive or fluid striking, etc. there is aggressive/defensive control, weapons, etc. so Lon as any technique's requirements do not overlap, you are golden. With sufficient skill in Kung fu an boxing, you ignore 1 point of armor, ignore 1 penalty die for precision attacks, so blows to the head suffer only a -2, damage in excess of target's size makes them lose their next turn, damage in excess of target's stamina knocks them out, and you get a minimum of two attacks, at the cost of your defense for the round. Two of those are level 1 techniques with no conflict, one is in the rules for called shots, and one is a higher level of the merit. Thanqol is mostly incorrect, in that in a (non-Mage) game you are unlikely to get more than two attacks is costly - dex 4 is easy to get, but it is hard to also have a decent strength for actually hitting, and you can't use dex for brawl usually. Kung fu requires a dex of 4, to give you three attacks at 0/-1/-2, say.

The trouble is weapons. A werewolf or changeling with lethal claws using brawl can still use boxing an called shots, so they stab you to death stun you and knock you out on a dramatic success. Weapons are another matter; there is a merit that lets you use a different weapon for a fighting style (at a penalty) but the overlap is such that you aren't getting much until you've got three or four weapons styles which all work on a single weapon at rank 5. If the character goes through all that for knockdown and nine again, give it to em!

Originally Posted by Anarion

See, I'm just Obrimos to the core. I actually wish I'd put more in prime as forces and prime make by far the most sense to me, although I didn't really "get" prime until I saw it in action by Cyprus, then I realized that it's terrifying and amazing.

As it stands now though, once Tessen increases her gnosis and gets just a few merit dots, she's going to start pushing several arcana, including mind and maybe even spirit as well. I've started thinking that adding prime to her now wouldn't be useful since Amun already has prime 3.

What prime did cyprus use specifically? I'm all about prime but mechanically it's hard to nail down.

Originally Posted by the_druid_droid

Yeah, the exorcism is a product of several things, one being that Turing was already kind of feeling bad about the whole Abyss plate thing, and that potentially getting possessed by a joy spirit in front of the goetic demon of his superiors probably wouldn't be that great. Also I don't really get Spirit as an arcanum... all my innate Thyrsus is bent into the shape of Life instead.

That's a good point.

Spirit is at once bland and all encompassing; as has been said, a storyteller who doesn't care for it will make it bland.

At any point in time, you are surrounded not only by spirits but by a twisted hell scape. The grass outside this crack house is actually tufts of rusted strife needles, choke through with razor wire growing like weeds. The building is a shuddering blackened jack planters of a house, hungry for you to enter into its bowels, where the twisted fears of its tenants take on life as a maze I shiftin hallways roamed by junkie magath made from murder spirits, joy spirit's and druggie spirits all cannibalizing each other, claws of candy wrappers following I.V. Tubes bundled into emancipated arm shapes up to Amir of broken mirror fragments, littered with white powder, glaring with a clown's face out from under a mohawk of used heroine needles.

Every time you experience an emotion, tiny dots of spirit form, and begin to either devour each other or be devoured. The building across the street exerts its influence to make you afraid, in hopes of freight off your fear. It's a gamble; either it grows strong off your offering or it is weakened, cannibalized by the druggies an murder spirits roaming the area. The joy of having succeeded on your thanksgiving will birth a joy spirit swarm, and left intended they will fuse, until they are eaten by something else which perverts them. It's an entire ecosystem rife with action and reaction, like the organic chemistry of the body writ large. Not to mention the choking blackness of the eventual wounds that could consume Detroit, places so foul they collapse on themselves and begin to spawn predatory spirits like psychic cancer, devouring the wholesome around themselves and assimilatin the unwholesome.

Spirits are also, at their weakest, about as strong as a Mage with only 2 dots in a single arcana. If you can find a rank 3 spirit, it's an honest to goodness threat one on one sans planning. And it's utterly mutable; if your hallow has resonance of Peaceful Resolve, then making trips into the city to find Police spirits, Activism spirits and Shelter spirits, and feeding them essence drawn from your hallow is an honest to celestial way to slowly but surely improve it from the inside out; the spirits like you, and slowly begin to morph into something you want, while getting stronger.

The spirit arcanum is about reaping what you've sown. The downside is its easy to get lost in tending the shadow and neglect the flesh.

Originally Posted by Thanqol

:D

You do not want to throw too much Life magic at a Paradox Manifestation with Life as it's origin Arcana. That's just asking for trouble. Life would be useful for limiting it's spread but not for direct attacks.

Hm. Is that a relic of it being based on Life, being based on the abyss, or base on something else?

The Abyss normally manifests only due to Awakened activity? That's a very good point. A very good point, yes.

I'm not sure what's worse, that this could be a natural manifestation of life magic, or that someone else inflicted this somehow. How would that evn work? Was it a bedlam state which lay dormant until the hobos finally managed to activate it's catch, and then it struck the material?

The main problem isn't mix and match stacking. The main problems are:
- Multiple actions, which is the difference between 'I kill a dude' and 'I wipe the entire party'.
- Power creep, wherein Brawl 4 isn't worth as much as Brawl 2 MA 4. I especially don't like investing merit dots in fighting skills when merit dots are your awesome backgrounds/social connections/narratively interesting things.

That's understandable, but consider that Martial Arts is a deep background for some. The merits also work best in other splats - I would e hesitant to declare martial arts unnecessary for changeling, waffle on vampire, and would outright argue for werewolf or hunter. It changes the tenor of the game but some scenarios benefit from the possibility of non-numerical specialization in combat skills.

Related, consider the situational 'substyles' from armory reloaded; the two I remember are berserk, and combat art. Rather than being an art themself, they modify a relevant skill, so you can attack berserk to weaponry, firearms, or brawl or athletics. You still fight with Brawl, but can do slightly more damage at cost Of defense. Or combat arts for weaponry; I would swear that's what Cyprus used with her dramatic flourish. It adds bonus to intimidate when you can show off your leet skillz. I find them a fabulous middle ground, and would like you to consider their ramifications.

Originally Posted by the_druid_droid

Actually, in the wake of Tiki's question, I now have to wonder - what's the effect of using Death magic on a Life-born Abyssal manifestation rooted in one's own brain?

I'm guessing it's a "pray you don't fail" kind of thing.

I would like to point out, during a these questions of how magic can be the one-hit-kill button; there's a Low Wisdom solution. I suspect nuking the parasite/lobotomizing yourself, and just leaving the manifestation for later, is that bad idea.

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

The thing with both versions of this that makes me sure it ends badly even on a success is brainworm corpse in the brainmeat, but whilst I work up the mental energy to post again, I thought I'd ask.

That's legitimately terrifying.
Did you know if a snake eats too big a meal, the putrefaction of it's food will outpace digestion and poison it? I don't suppose brainwurm corpses are much better.

Further Edit - I've no idea what my current willpower is actually supposed to be. I've scratched it off down to 4 from 5. My assumption was that spending it as I did was a pretty much permanent thing till spent back up via xp, but my brain has pretty much failed altogether at this point and I'm no longer sure.

Willpower is like psychic hit points. You have your maximum, which are dots, and you have your current pool, which are points. Spending a point of willpower depletes it temporarily, ad gives you +3 dice or +2 resistance. Spending an entire dot lowers your permanent maximum, and makes magic super permanent.

Oh! Reminds me. Apparently there is errata on permanent magic, and it's possible to use willpower points to make a spell have infinite duration. It can still be dispelled, where making a spell permanent with a dot of willpower makes that spell regrow if dismissed. Although that may be Seer only. Can't recall.

[Anarion]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

What prime did cyprus use specifically? I'm all about prime but mechanically it's hard to nail down.

She used armor, the seer sword of whatever ministry she is, paternoster iirc that lets her dispel as a rote action (the reroll dice kind of rote, not the mage spell), and something that I think was a custom where she enchanted her unarmed strikes to ignore magic.

Originally Posted by SiuiS

I would like to point out, during a these questions of how magic can be the one-hit-kill button; there's a Low Wisdom solution. I suspect nuking the parasite/lobotomizing yourself, and just leaving the manifestation for later, is that bad idea.

Huh? The low wisdom solution is killing a Native American. Thanqol mentioned it in the ooc thread somewhere.

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Willpower is like psychic hit points. You have your maximum, which are dots, and you have your current pool, which are points. Spending a point of willpower depletes it temporarily, ad gives you +3 dice or +2 resistance. Spending an entire dot lowers your permanent maximum, and makes magic super permanent.

Or being attacked by a giant thorned storm god thingy in dreams, as far as ways to deplete your willpower.

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

What prime did cyprus use specifically? I'm all about prime but mechanically it's hard to nail down.

She used a trick that let her punch through a Mage shield without triggering it or dispelling it.

She has a bunch of other tricks too, like 'delete people with Celestial Fire' and 'Counter everything ever at the same time'.

That's a good point.

Spirit is at once bland and all encompassing; as has been said, a storyteller who doesn't care for it will make it bland.

This. It's totally reliant on how much the ST 'gets' Spirits.

Hm. Is that a relic of it being based on Life, being based on the abyss, or base on something else?

The first two.

I'm not sure what's worse, that this could be a natural manifestation of life magic, or that someone else inflicted this somehow. How would that evn work? Was it a bedlam state which lay dormant until the hobos finally managed to activate it's catch, and then it struck the material?

it is a mystery

That's understandable, but consider that Martial Arts is a deep background for some.

And it's cooler if the merits to represent that are Allies, Mentor and Status than Kung Fu.

Related, consider the situational 'substyles' from armory reloaded; the two I remember are berserk, and combat art. Rather than being an art themself, they modify a relevant skill, so you can attack berserk to weaponry, firearms, or brawl or athletics. You still fight with Brawl, but can do slightly more damage at cost Of defense. Or combat arts for weaponry; I would swear that's what Cyprus used with her dramatic flourish. It adds bonus to intimidate when you can show off your leet skillz. I find them a fabulous middle ground, and would like you to consider their ramifications.

Combat art is for actors. Cyprus just has straight-up intimidate.

This said, I am generally far more forgiving of certain styles, particularly the ones without direct combat application. On the other hand, one of the WoD's great strengths is that there's rarely a better tactic than a direct attack, and fights are often decided by who cares more about the victory (thus how much willpower/blood/mana whatever they'll spend to win).

Oh! Reminds me. Apparently there is errata on permanent magic, and it's possible to use willpower points to make a spell have infinite duration. It can still be dispelled, where making a spell permanent with a dot of willpower makes that spell regrow if dismissed. Although that may be Seer only. Can't recall.

That's not an errata, that's core. You spend a willpower Dot to make a spell have an indefinite duration and it regrows if dispelled - this is how permanent Imbued Items are made.

The Seers have a trick to permanently destroy those enchantments, but it requires Sword of Doctrine 3 and a WP dot as well. Most settle for throwing it into a volcano.

EDIT:

Huh? The low wisdom solution is killing a Native American. Thanqol mentioned it in the ooc thread somewhere.

The hilarious bastard solution is to get a Native American in the house, use Death Magic to fake him dying, then wake him up and shake hands with him after the Manifestation is gone.

I was disappointed none of you thought of that.

[Anarion]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

EDIT:



The hilarious bastard solution is to get a Native American in the house, use Death Magic to fake him dying, then wake him up and shake hands with him after the Manifestation is gone.

I was disappointed none of you thought of that.

Huh, you know, I honestly didn't think it worked that way. With death 4-5, maybe, but I assumed that with our base level of skills that the manifestation would know if we were faking it. Always bad to make assumptions.

Also, none of us actually considered the Native American thing IC, you just mentioned it in the OOC thread. I suppose we could have rolled int+occult to "think of it" after you told us, but I wasn't interested in pursuing it at the time and I can't speak for anyone else on that front.

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by Anarion

Huh, you know, I honestly didn't think it worked that way. With death 4-5, maybe, but I assumed that with our base level of skills that the manifestation would know if we were faking it. Always bad to make assumptions.

Think in terms of Practises. Veiling is 2, veiling another is 3, Turing has that.

Concealing and faking stuff with magic is relatively easy. Also all the stuff with soul jars is available at 3.

With Death 5 you wouldn't need to get a person in for that, you could just 'create' the event of a dying native american in abstract. With Death 4 you could could kill a rat and, with difficulty, pattern the sense of it's death into the shape you wanted.

Also, none of us actually considered the Native American thing IC, you just mentioned it in the OOC thread. I suppose we could have rolled int+occult to "think of it" after you told us, but I wasn't interested in pursuing it at the time and I can't speak for anyone else on that front.

I actually gave it as a piece of info from your Abyssal Fractures but it stands to reason that Tessen wouldn't voice it.

[Anarion]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

Think in terms of Practises. Veiling is 2, veiling another is 3, Turing has that.

Concealing and faking stuff with magic is relatively easy. Also all the stuff with soul jars is available at 3.

But standard veiling is for fooling other humans or supernatural beings who are not using any magic. Unveiling is only 1 dot. As I said, I assumed without voicing it, that this abyssal manifestation would have enough magic affinity to require a higher level of arcanum to beat whatever its base level of unveiling would be. This was an unconscious assumption, the kind of thing where the idea might have passed through my head for 2 seconds at most before going "nah that won't work." Bad assumption, as it turned out.

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by Anarion

But standard veiling is for fooling other humans or supernatural beings who are not using any magic. Unveiling is only 1 dot. As I said, I assumed without voicing it, that this abyssal manifestation would have enough magic affinity to require a higher level of arcanum to beat whatever its base level of unveiling would be. This was an unconscious assumption, the kind of thing where the idea might have passed through my head for 2 seconds at most before going "nah that won't work." Bad assumption, as it turned out.

It's not a matter of fooling the brain worms, they don't have brains or mage sight. It's a matter of creating an event which has enough metaphysical resonance to trigger it's ban.

It'd still be tricky, and it'd do better if it was surrounded with pomp and ceremony and other trappings - like giving the guy a poisoned blanket or dressing as settlers. It's all about symbolism.

[Anarion]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

It's not a matter of fooling the brain worms, they don't have brains or mage sight. It's a matter of creating an event which has enough metaphysical resonance to trigger it's ban.

It'd still be tricky, and it'd do better if it was surrounded with pomp and ceremony and other trappings - like giving the guy a poisoned blanket or dressing as settlers. It's all about symbolism.

But then it would be harder if you were faking the death because everyone there would know that it was a fake and might not act as sincerely (or it would be harder to act sincerely, at any rate).

Plus, I mean, if imitating the thing rather than doing the thing is all that's required, how come we didn't just get a TV and put on, I dunno, the Cosby Show Thanksgiving Special or something?

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by Anarion

But then it would be harder if you were faking the death because everyone there would know that it was a fake and might not act as sincerely (or it would be harder to act sincerely, at any rate).

So what if they know it's fake? You know right now that cooking a nice dinner in this house is just a way to build up enough resonance to make it easier to close the manifestation. It's just as 'fake' as that.

You don't even have to be convincing. You're not trying to 'fool' the universe. You're just getting enough of the right kind of symbols in place.

Plus, I mean, if imitating the thing rather than doing the thing is all that's required, how come we didn't just get a TV and put on, I dunno, the Cosby Show Thanksgiving Special or something?

A television has the resonance of a television. A photograph of Thanksgiving has a -10 (described) connection to Thanksgiving. If you got Bill Cosby in to have a thanksgiving special in this house then hell yeah that'd be a circumstance bonus to your roll.

[Anarion]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

So what if they know it's fake? You know right now that cooking a nice dinner in this house is just a way to build up enough resonance to make it easier to close the manifestation. It's just as 'fake' as that.

You don't even have to be convincing. You're not trying to 'fool' the universe. You're just getting enough of the right kind of symbols in place.

Okay, that makes sense. I don't think this is quite how I approached it though, and I know it's not how Tessen sees it. For Tessen, she's doing the best she can given the time constraints and the location. She's completely sincere in making this as close to her ideal of Thanksgiving as she can, and has been optimistic and energetic the whole time because the idea of doing this, even in such a horrible setting, kind of appeals to her suburban upbringing. As I said IC, she's thinking to herself that this is the thing that would make her Mom most proud of her. Having magic powers is whatever, putting on a thanksgiving using her Mom's recipe, that's worth being proud over.

A television has the resonance of a television. A photograph of Thanksgiving has a -10 (described) connection to Thanksgiving. If you got Bill Cosby in to have a thanksgiving special in this house then hell yeah that'd be a circumstance bonus to your roll.

Makes sense. Too bad we don't have just a little more space magic, we could have gone and gotten him.

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by Anarion

Okay, that makes sense. I don't think this is quite how I approached it though, and I know it's not how Tessen sees it. For Tessen, she's doing the best she can given the time constraints and the location. She's completely sincere in making this as close to her ideal of Thanksgiving as she can, and has been optimistic and energetic the whole time because the idea of doing this, even in such a horrible setting, kind of appeals to her suburban upbringing. As I said IC, she's thinking to herself that this is the thing that would make her Mom most proud of her. Having magic powers is whatever, putting on a thanksgiving using her Mom's recipe, that's worth being proud over.

And you got a bonus to the roll for that attitude!

Building up senses of family and family pride and using a traditional recipe are both the kind of resonances you're after. It's the right kind of symbolism.

Makes sense. Too bad we don't have just a little more space magic, we could have gone and gotten him.

Most horrifying kidnapping ever.

[Deadly]

As I read it, High Speech may apply to all 3 rolls, right?

But Willpower would only apply to one of them?

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by Deadly

As I read it, High Speech may apply to all 3 rolls, right?

But Willpower would only apply to one of them?

Yes and yes. High speech adds +30 minutes to each ritual roll, on checking, so you've only really got time to add it once.

[the_druid_droid]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

That's a good point.

Spirit is at once bland and all encompassing; as has been said, a storyteller who doesn't care for it will make it bland.

*awesome Spirit stuff*

I really want to see you run/play in a game with a strong spirit component. I think the result would be a-MA-zing.

I would like to point out, during a these questions of how magic can be the one-hit-kill button; there's a Low Wisdom solution. I suspect nuking the parasite/lobotomizing yourself, and just leaving the manifestation for later, is that bad idea.

Oh yeah, nuking things with Death is usually of questionable Wisdom, but the Arcanum fascinates me especially since I have a character who can throw it around. I'm looking forward to Death 4 specifically because of the intriguing temptation (especially for a Guardian) of the "rot your enemies' flesh with a touch" spell. It's walking the line between "horrible idea" and "horrible idea you actually go through with".

That's legitimately terrifying.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Anarion

She used armor, the seer sword of whatever ministry she is, paternoster iirc that lets her dispel as a rote action (the reroll dice kind of rote, not the mage spell), and something that I think was a custom where she enchanted her unarmed strikes to ignore magic.

Sword of Doctrine is terrifying and I want it.

Originally Posted by Thanqol

The hilarious bastard solution is to get a Native American in the house, use Death Magic to fake him dying, then wake him up and shake hands with him after the Manifestation is gone.

I was disappointed none of you thought of that.

Sonuvabitch.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by Anarion

She used armor, the seer sword of whatever ministry she is, paternoster iirc that lets her dispel as a rote action (the reroll dice kind of rote, not the mage spell), and something that I think was a custom where she enchanted her unarmed strikes to ignore magic.

Only bypassing the shield spell seems like a purely Prime effect at a glance, along the lines of weakening te shield's pattern and pulling mana out of it. If a de-mana'd gun fires and never hits, a de-mana'd forcefield exists but doesn't protect... That's after the fact though. At the time (and still predominantly) I assumed a phasic envelop effect, not actual deleterious effect on your shield.

Dispel as a rote would be nice though. Yowza.

Huh? The low wisdom solution is killing a Native American. Thanqol mentioned it in the ooc thread somewhere.

There's a twenty page difference in pacing! Catching up is hard!

Or being attacked by a giant thorned storm god thingy in dreams, as far as ways to deplete your willpower.

I'm pretty sure that's not a permant loss. Although I'm thankful the dice gel such that I'm not bat**** insane. I don't I could suffer any more detangements and still be playable XD

Originally Posted by Thanqol

She has a bunch of other tricks too, like 'delete people with Celestial Fire' and 'Counter everything ever at the same time'.

I know that first trick! It's called 'Celestial Fire'!

And it's cooler if the merits to represent that are Allies, Mentor and Status than Kung Fu.

I dunno. I don't think they should be tiered merits, but Martial Arts makes as much sense to me for a background as Resources.

Combat art is for actors. Cyprus just has straight-up intimidate.

Combat Art is also for demonstrations and for 'strip mall karate' practitioners. If I knew how to be intimidating, I would hazard being proficient at combat art.
Doesn't intimidation require its own action, aside from the simultaneous physical laceration of Amun's gut place? I'm not saying its necessary, I'm saying I find it elegant in its synchronicity.

This said, I am generally far more forgiving of certain styles, particularly the ones without direct combat application. On the other hand, one of the WoD's great strengths is that there's rarely a better tactic than a direct attack, and fights are often decided by who cares more about the victory (thus how much willpower/blood/mana whatever they'll spend to win).

Ironic, as the game gives every impression of fighting being dumb because you never really know what you're up against.

Martial arts merits exist at a different level of abstraction than the rest, true. They are seemingly half merit, half skill. My interest in them stemmed from an utter lack of being able to do otherwise intuitive things in the system, such as being unable to use a chain weapon without merit-level proficiency, or being unable to model actual, pertinent combat decisions. A house rule for specialties solves the first, and leniency on called shots solves the second, but I like working with a system without changing as much as I can.

That's not an errata, that's core. You spend a willpower Dot to make a spell have an indefinite duration and it regrows if dispelled - this is how permanent Imbued Items are made

Of course its core. It had to be clarified in an errata document, because spending a point for non-regenerative permanent spells was poorly spelled out, not because it's this clever new thing silly.
Or, well, "errata". By the designers, listed as 'not official yet'.

The Seers have a trick to permanently destroy those enchantments, but it requires Sword of Doctrine 3 and a WP dot as well. Most settle for throwing it into a volcano.

In any othe setting I would say that's stupid. The last thing you do I let an artifact out of your sight. That's why you have vaults and guards and death traps; as soon as you dont know where the One Ring is it somehow finds it's way into a goblin kingdom through a river, wiggling it's way onto a Hobbit's finger. If they had something sit an watch the ring, they would have been fine.

As it is, what arcanum would an acanthus need to take a trip to Hawaii at just the right time to catch the (surprisingly cool) bevy of magical artifacts that erupt from the earth's core after all these years? Purely academically, you understand. Not as a pre-build exercise.

The hilarious bastard solution is to get a Native American in the house, use Death Magic to fake him dying, then wake him up and shake hands with him after the Manifestation is gone.

I was disappointed none of you thought of that.

All joking aside, I thought that the prayer was S much, if not more, important as the thanksgiving. While killing an Indian would satisfy thanksgiving (kinda), it wouldn't involve saying proper grace over the meal; it wouldn't set right that which was wronged.

Originally Posted by Anarion

But standard veiling is for fooling other humans or supernatural beings who are not using any magic. Unveiling is only 1 dot. As I said, I assumed without voicing it, that this abyssal manifestation would have enough magic affinity to require a higher level of arcanum to beat whatever its base level of unveiling would be. This was an unconscious assumption, the kind of thing where the idea might have passed through my head for 2 seconds at most before going "nah that won't work." Bad assumption, as it turned out.

I was under the impression that if another has veiled something, you could at best, notice it was veiled with your first casting. Unveiling is 1, veiling is 3; but if both are done on the part of an Awakened, it's contested? Using Mage sight on a veiled obese depends on circumstance though. Hiding the fact that you're spying on someone is as easy as setting up a passive spy detection network. Because Prime is awesome like that.

Originally Posted by Anarion

But then it would be harder if you were faking the death because everyone there would know that it was a fake and might not act as sincerely (or it would be harder to act sincerely, at any rate).

If I hit you in anger, it causes the same resonance or violence when we contact, as if I playfully swing and accidentally hit, where I intended to miss. The resonance is analogous to the pain response, not the intention. Spilled blood breeds murder spirits, whether by accident or not. Resonance is action, not intention.

Plus, I mean, if imitating the thing rather than doing the thing is all that's required, how come we didn't just get a TV and put on, I dunno, the Cosby Show Thanksgiving Special or something?

Isn't putting on a play what you're doing?

Originally Posted by Anarion

Okay, that makes sense. I don't think this is quite how I approached it though, and I know it's not how Tessen sees it. For Tessen, she's doing the best she can given the time constraints and the location. She's completely sincere in making this as close to her ideal of Thanksgiving as she can, and has been optimistic and energetic the whole time because the idea of doing this, even in such a horrible setting, kind of appeals to her suburban upbringing. As I said IC, she's thinking to herself that this is the thing that would make her Mom most proud of her. Having magic powers is whatever, putting on a thanksgiving using her Mom's recipe, that's worth being proud over.

Does that breast down thing actually work? I need to try that.
Sincerity will enhance the quality of the resonance, and while faking it would work, Tessen is currently breeding a slew of minor spirits who will make the work of changing the resonance easier. Or will feed any other joy spirits around, either or.

Makes sense. Too bad we don't have just a little more space magic, we could have gone and gotten him.

It's 2015. Bill Cosby is no more. He has been fully integrated into the Pudding Spirit, part of a court spawned by the particular stylings of comedians. There is also a multifaced, animal loving troll-face spirit and then suddenly I forgot where I was going with this joke. >_>

-

Oh, DD, about your post on page eight or so of the last thread; I viewed (and still view) your Vinyl idea as Acanthus. It's probably the lasers and glow sticks. I see where life fits into that, but without worrying about the spirit, I figure time and life, minor in fate, fits best. Why minor in fate? Because you never know who you'll meet on the dance floor.

And then Vinyl stutters her enemies in combat by scratching back her tiny, vinyl record earrings. "Let's hear that again! Remix!" hmm...

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Only bypassing the shield spell seems like a purely Prime effect at a glance, along the lines of weakening te shield's pattern and pulling mana out of it. If a de-mana'd gun fires and never hits, a de-mana'd forcefield exists but doesn't protect... That's after the fact though. At the time (and still predominantly) I assumed a phasic envelop effect, not actual deleterious effect on your shield.

Close, though how she'd describe it is taking control of someone else's spell and creating a hole in it.

Dispel as a rote would be nice though. Yowza.

Not as 'a rote'. As rote. As in, re-roll any failed dice.

I know that first trick! It's called 'Celestial Fire'!

She can get eighteen dice out of it.

She was a PC for about three sessions before the game caved, and a side effect of being PC'd by Thanqol is you come out of it disgustingly optimised.

Doesn't intimidation require its own action, aside from the simultaneous physical laceration of Amun's gut place? I'm not saying its necessary, I'm saying I find it elegant in its synchronicity.

I think that it's a nonsensical turn-based mindset to think you can stab someone, and then look scary the next turn rather than look scary while you're stabbing someone.

Also, as far as NPCs with high social skills go I tend not to roll against my players - I just lie to them in my descriptions.

As it is, what arcanum would an acanthus need to take a trip to Hawaii at just the right time to catch the (surprisingly cool) bevy of magical artifacts that erupt from the earth's core after all these years? Purely academically, you understand. Not as a pre-build exercise.

Uh, Fate?

[the_druid_droid]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Oh, DD, about your post on page eight or so of the last thread; I viewed (and still view) your Vinyl idea as Acanthus. It's probably the lasers and glow sticks. I see where life fits into that, but without worrying about the spirit, I figure time and life, minor in fate, fits best. Why minor in fate? Because you never know who you'll meet on the dance floor.

And then Vinyl stutters her enemies in combat by scratching back her tiny, vinyl record earrings. "Let's hear that again! Remix!" hmm...

I can see how Acanthus could work, and I can actually make a really weird argument for almost-Mastigos, although an Infernal Awakening kind of kills the soul of it. Really, the reason I feel she's so strongly Thyrsus is that for her, the magic comes from the living, pulsating human energy out there on the floor and her own soul's connection to that as DJ.

Certainly there's a lot of living in the moment in the character concept, which is more Acanthus at a glance, but the best way I have to explain it is that (in my mind at least) an Acanthus steps off a cliff because they know something will catch them or because it's part of getting where they need to be. Vinyl does it for the fall.

[SiuiS]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

Close, though how she'd describe it is taking control of someone else's spell and creating a hole in it.

Ahhhh. Thank you. The buildup; quote, multiquote, pause. Evaluate; reply. Wait for the loading. Get distracted, read a paragraph, look down; click the screen. Read the question. See the sentence, feel each response, every potential outlook. The sensation is wonderful. It's like sparring.

*sigh* okay. Ecstasy out of the system. Disconnected thoughts.

Taking control of another's spell. The it-example of Prime, yet specifically left out of the mechanics. How do you handle this juxtaposition? It is a design feature that prime cannot do actual, offensive meta magic. You cannot counter target successes, change their spell factors reorient their targets. Mechanics; a vague term which literally branches out in my mind. I'm experiencing a silver-on-lavender flow chart of conversation. If you respond, please be over-inclusive. I cannot possibly articulate all I wish to. So many questions spring from this point alone, purely of the how can I play this game well variety.

Phasic envelop is a term you are unfamiliar with. The idea is one of sympathy, of bubbles. If the shield is a bubble, then you wrap your bullet in a similar, smaller bubble. When the two meet, they join, bypassing the skin because the bullet was always inside the barrier.

I've been thinking of mass effect as an awakened theme. I plan on hitting my current player with a guardian based on Men in Black, similar in presentation to Kurosawa. That will be fun.

Prime is meta magic. Meta magic has baggage though. How could one reconcile the two? At prime 3 one can dispel anything. You would think that weakening, reducing, would be a lesser version. A partial dispel. Is this the case? Can one perfect a spell in place, bolstering it? Can one perfect a spell as it flows from the tips of the Obrimos' fingers? Could your Prime Mage set his hand upon Tessen's shoulder in quiet meditation, perfecting, her radio broadcast crystal clear, bypassing the usual signal haze of concrete and steel, reaching farther? Could her words thus ring more true?

Anarion: you've watched the Simpsons, yes? Have you seen the episode where they go to Japan? I'd like a translation of something if you have.

Is it any wonder that Acanthud and Thyrsus branch, and breach each other? I'm coming down off a sort of high, I must seem disconnected. A Thyrsus in action would probably show a lot of Acanthus-presumed traits.

Not as 'a rote'. As rote. As in, re-roll any failed dice.

I did get that, yes. What I didn't elaborate on was the three hours spent trying to find out if a rote spell as a rote action. As you've said, the book throws things out there an then doesn't discuss them at all.

I wonder, mathematically, which is superior? Rote spells as they are, or making a rote spell a rote action, still based on arcanum+gnosis?

She can get eighteen dice out of it.

Skill+attribute+arcana+arcane tool (colors?)+"order" specialty+ high speech.
I've been experimenting with the idea of a Mage starting with composure or resolve 6, myself. I'm not sure it's worth it, but it's certainly intimidating.
Oh, but it's also impossible. Hmm. Solved it!

I think that it's a nonsensical turn-based mindset to think you can stab someone, and then look scary the next turn rather than look scary while you're stabbing someone.

I agree, but I think it's nonsensical to think looking scary is sufficient to intimidate. Actual intimidation is an action taken. When it seems passive, it's done as a chronic effect, but merely being proficient enough to make someone double take at fighting you? Not really intimidating. Breaking their resolve enough to falter (a mechanically inflicted penalty) would be the result of intimidation. Being smooth enough to roll two things together, when normally they synergies but would be separate actions, is the definition of proficient. And this is mostly real world as applies to game, not the othe way around.

Also, as far as NPCs with high social skills go I tend not to roll against my players - I just lie to them in my descriptions.

I approve. Hel, this is how I got as far in the pony thread Rp as I did. The best part about godmodders- so used to their own impositions, they would never think to call your bluff. A good front combined with a willingness to fight despite no wing assured victory does wonders. Most same people recognize that if they cannot be guaranteed to win, they just won't fight. It throws them off when you're willing to engage without that guarantee, makes it seem like you've got something under the sleeve.

Uh, Fate?

That was the joke, yes :P
I meant more, what would it be though? 4? 5? Add some space for sympathy, time to make sure you've got it down pat. Forces to dampen the high velocity sword that's flying at you. Prime to keep track through the ash and smoke.

Oh. Uh. I suppose being so prepared as to leave nothing to chance is decidedly Not Acanthus. It finally clicked.

Originally Posted by the_druid_droid

I really want to see you run/play in a game with a strong spirit component. I think the result would be a-MA-zing.

I am currently lookin into werewolf for this reason. To them, this stuff is the higher reality and is a vital, unimpeachable and necessary component of life.

To a mage, it's a kookie religion by a bunch of mongrel spirit hippies too busy pruning their garden to see that compared to the forest outside their yard the garden is meaningless. Which is awesome, and emblematic of the awakened. Your problems are petty. Your concerns are nothing. You deal with squabbles, while we are at war for reality. My problems are more important. I fight so that your petty problems can even exist. Deal with it.

From a meta perspective though, if you start with Mage, and don't apply cortical thinking to setting conceits, you lose a lot. Changelings, right? Contracts are so important. Glamour, how to get it, what it is, where it is. The hedge, Arcadia, hollows, the works. A Mage would see a mutant resonance vampire with a hole in the gauntlet, and move on. If a death is a tragedy and a million is a statistic, the awakened are statisticians. They have to be. As sad as it is that you can't have a family because the world is more important, isn't it the height I irresponsibility to micromanage? To do what everyone can do, and leave what only you can do unattended? Hubris. It sucks, but it's your birthright.

Oh yeah, nuking things with Death is usually of questionable Wisdom, but the Arcanum fascinates me especially since I have a character who can throw it around. I'm looking forward to Death 4 specifically because of the intriguing temptation (especially for a Guardian) of the "rot your enemies' flesh with a touch" spell. It's walking the line between "horrible idea" and "horrible idea you actually go through with".

Having seen you in action, I think Death is a great set for your first Arcana. You'll do with Seth what Thanqol has done with forces. It is fitting. I look forward to being able to examine you in detail.

Sword of Doctrine is terrifying and I want it.

That's how the seers get you. Candy. Puppies. Doctrinal cutlery. Just come over here, let's go for a ride in this van...

Originally Posted by the_druid_droid

I can see how Acanthus could work, and I can actually make a really weird argument for almost-Mastigos, although an Infernal Awakening kind of kills the soul of it. Really, the reason I feel she's so strongly Thyrsus is that for her, the magic comes from the living, pulsating human energy out there on the floor and her own soul's connection to that as DJ.

Certainly there's a lot of living in the moment in the character concept, which is more Acanthus at a glance, but the best way I have to explain it is that (in my mind at least) an Acanthus steps off a cliff because they know something will catch them or because it's part of getting where they need to be. Vinyl does it for the fall.

That last sentence is beautiful.

I should note that I mix and match the two. Its a vendiagram, and I have a hard time identifying all but the most outlier, extreme versions of the two. That outer 2% on each side. Case in point, the Jerusalem man? Pegged him as Thyrsus.

I would like to see Jayden conceptualized as Acanthus. Caught up in the narrative of the music, rather than just it's sound. It fits well with her album of noise, too.

Have you told your players about that album Jayden released, Thanqol? I think it would show a new dimension to the game, if you provided a concrete example of how the free council actively works to awaken people.


EDIT: PRIOR THREAD

Spoiler

Originally Posted by Thanqol

I'll accept this. I also think that reducing friction where someone is walking, especially if the ground is slightly wet or slippery, to induce a pratfall can easily be covert.

from the description, a lot of the rotes are the most potent you could get with that arcana rank. Making an object move through kinetic force could be covert, but you're not doing that. You are making kinetic force, and throwing it ina steady stream at the object. That is why they made it vulgar. If you low lightly on it and enhance that already imbued motion, it would be covert. If you add impetus directly to the matter, it's the difference between making a bullet fire, and bending a bullet.

Also, I find it ironic that the only person who didn't try to make Joyspirit ridden guy fall over was the one mage who explicitly, by ST fiat, could.

Originally Posted by Deadly

Also, a familiar ... good idea, or useless? Right now I'm kinda not sure I'd bother, it's a pretty expensive merit, but I like the idea that he uses the animals around the city for information and has an old cat who snoops around for him. Cats being big things in ancient Egypt and all. He's definitely a cat person and probably hates dogs.

Familiars have two problems as presented in the books - One, they don't really explain that a twilight familiar is just as good/bad as an embodied one, and Two, they leave out what a familiar can be. You can have a crow, or a rat, or a dog, or something, but you can also have a gremlin, a shoulder angel, or that paperclip that pops up on old windows desktops. You could have an anomaite rolodex on wheel-treads that resemble the datastream cellphone icon with Siri's voice, and it wouldn't cause any issues except sleepers would freak.

A familiar has influence 2 over one thing (for an animal, usually that animal. your cat would have influnce (cats) 2.). This is like having Arcana, but not as overt. A cat familiar could talk to all cats it meets, cause them to be calm in you rpresence so they don't trip up security by yowling, make one walk in front of a dude so your spells which cause bad luck become covert (black cat, crossed paths!), incite very cat in the area into a manic, murderous rage by convincing them they are threatened and have nowhere to run (and whisper that such-and-such is the target of this feeling) and boost their combat capacity, into a twisted mockery of the housecat v. commoner thing.

All of this is without input from you, without support magic from you, and without numina. You can also improve a familiar with yourown experience, eventually raising them to god-tier, literally, increasing their influence strength and number of things they influence. Your cat familiar can become Cat-who-stradles-worlds, representative of the cat spirit notion of slipping boundaries, riding the liminal edge, able to cross any barrier, between inside and outside, friend and foe, life and death.

The downside is it requires roleplay and effort. Every point put into this spirit friend is less understanding of the truth as you know it. And a thyrsus with spirit 4 can render all of that impotent, sucking the life out of him, breaking the familiar bond, shaping him into something new and forcing it to work against you. Having your cat walk into a building and observe gives you the sympathetic connection of being their, watching yourself though. Familiars are a possible path to trod, but to work well you need to be dedicated to that path of Wizard-and-Familiar, rather than any other possible wizard archetype. You may be better off with a disembodied familiar of cat friendliness, who follows you and influences cats favorably, giving hte perception that cats love you - in essence, your familiar would be more n aura than a concrete person.

Originally Posted by Deadly

I can't quite decide if Amun would prefer a gun or would rather get up close and personal. I kinda like the image of him carrying around a concealed sawed-off, pump-action shotgun. Just because you said our characters are bad-ass! And I kinda feel like my rote selection isn't very offensive.

A sawed off shotgun has the stock cut off, so that with a leather strap, you can wear it under yout armpit like apurse. It can be carried with prettymuch any reasonably long coat.

You also have what, prime 3, fate 2 time 1? Tessen has forces 4?
You could imbue the item with spells for future use, with a fate trigger of "when you really need to use this gun", enhance the item via prime, and set it up to do bashing damage, nonlethal, ignore target armor and defense, recieve several bonus dice, have the 8-again property, and the gun itself is unbreachable. For about... 24 hours worth of effort (literally, 24 consecutive hours, not like, a single day). A mage with a willing cabal (forces to reverse Knife hands converting lethal to bashing, prime and imbue to dispel and obfuscate enemy defenses, matter to improve the general working of the weapon based on matter granting a weapon 9-again, fate and time for the perfect moment, the perfect shot, and possibly to fate the gun to never take a life unknowingly as a ritual working to ensure you don't hit that last health-box with lethal) and time to prepare can do some stuf that is "crazy nasty, hello".

Rotes? Who needs rote? You're the guy with a gun. Oh oops, you dodged and tripped over my cat spirit!

Originally Posted by Thanqol

"They watch everything. Learn to become invisible."

I find it hard to imagine what would cause five odd Mages to devote that kind of attention to tracking you down, personally. Indeed, if you just start hiding then you've taken five Seers out of the picture of the great game. Show up somewhere, do some good, and vanish before the Seers get there. You waste their time and resources while still achieving your objectives.

Killing is the convenient out. It may be very convenient, but it doesn't make it remotely your only option.

An understanding of the law, and acting only when necessary would probably constitute having meditated to recieve the bonus on Morality dice rolls, and could obviate the need for a morality dice roll.

Wisdom is not morality. A mage is far far more responsible for their actions, and far, far more accountable for things they should and could have known. All it takes is time 1 to be able to know you could be in this situation. Fate 1 to avert it. Life 1 to avert it. Death 1 to stave it off. For a mage, not spending an hour every day making sure you don't kill someone in the future has a pretty solid argument for being irresponsible.

On lethal force, if you can create an opeing for escape, and don't arent you liable? If I am attacked in a lethal-force-acceptable situation, and manage to stagger my knife hobo attacker, then if I kill him and don't run, it's murder is it not? As far as you can answer without dispensing legal advice.
On the other end of the spectrum, an officer I know broke up a gang fight, and one of the guys he arrested commented about "they never see the elbows comin'". That man was later found guilty of some level of murder, when one of the victims died due to cranial trauma found to be consistent with elbow strikes. Interesting stuff.

Also, am I to be led to believe a pylon is analogous to a cabal? I thought a pylon was bigger than that. Like, 12-20 strong, minimum.

Originally Posted by the_druid_droid

Looking back on things, Areta would have joined the guardians, if neither Seer nor Scelesti was palatable once he got fed up with things.

Originally Posted by Deadly

Taking a little break from all this character creation to ponder some very important questions that probably have nothing at all to do with this game ...

Correct me if I got anything wrong here ...

Mages get their power from one of five Supernal realms, each with their own Watchtower. One of these realms is Arcadia. But mages can't actually go there (for more than a brief time during their Awakening). From what I understand that's the whole point of the quest to achieve divinity. If they could, their quest would be complete. If they could cross the abyss to, say, Arcadia, they would become gods, or like gods at least.

But Arcadia is also where changelings are dragged off to by the Gentry, and both changelings and the Gentry can apparently freely cross between the two through the Hedge (although for changelings it may not be a pleasant or easy trip). Even after a changeling returns to the real world they can, if they know certain places, return.

Surely mages have noticed this? Surely mages are very interested in changelings and the Hedge as a result? Is the Hedge and the Abyss somehow related? Could a mage become a changeling, or vice versa? Would such a mage be a god? Are the Gentry actually those ancient mages who managed to make it to the Supernal world and stay, and if so whatever happened to make them so... well, whatever they are? How does this all work? Am I asking too many silly questions with obvious answers? Should I go read the books more closely?

Edit: Now I got the idea that maybe the Durance of changelings is a twisted (or so ingenious that it seems crazy to mere mortals) scheme by ancient mages (now the Gentry) to create an alternative to the Awakening since that one is weakening. So instead of Awakening all of humanity, they hope to turn all of humanity into changelings?

Mages occasionally insist on forcing changelings to take them through the hedge. The mages all eventually lose their soul to the thorns. Hobgoblins seem to react to spirit magic, though. They could be considered dream spirits maybe?

Also. Arcadia being what it is, I think the poiint is that a definite answer is out of the question. Both "they are the same Arcadia" and "they are different" are correct. And incorrect. It's maddening.
Changeling is the only splat which does not easily fit into the WoD cosmology.

Originally Posted by Thanqol

A coming apocalypse is very oWoD, which was a product of the 90's and run screaming at the end of days with death metal playing in the background. Some of that bled through into nMage.

I, personally, am absolutely exhausted with end of the world scenarios and any such elicits a huge yawn from me. I will never take a game above the end of a continent if I can possibly help it.

Every new beginning is some other beginning's end. Your sword of damocles is no less an apocalypse scenario. It's just semi-contained.

Originally Posted by Anarion

Okay, quick and dirty. Mages seem like they're into conspiracy and power and hubris, but they've got nothing. The seers of the throne, who serve the exarchs (who are basically gods, not just ascended mages) are running the world. Seers control stuff on an international level, influencing governments, corporations and criminal organizations from top to bottom, although it's not clear how active they are vs. how much they just sit back and enjoy their opulent wealth. The seers have a massive hierarchy with almost everyone having some kind of crazy title, with the top being crazy powerful archmages and avatars of the exarchs themselves, the middle being really powerful archmasters and masters, and then a bunch of small groups that are basically like mage cabals, but intent on keeping mortals from awakening. They also split along several sub-groups called ministries and methods that relate to what and how they do things, and there are a bunch of smaller splinter groups as well.

The seers may do any of the following things
1. Run the world
2. Mess with non-seer mages
3. Mess with other seers (lots of infighting)
4. Nothing

Things you should take away
1. The exarchs are really scary and are messing up the universe and all sleepers.
2. The most badass mages in the world could pretty much blow up the whole world if they really wanted to.
3. Don't trust the government.

3 up there? a big one. not all seers matter. Not all Seers are Seers. Some are just misguided *****. The political structure of the Throne is such that there are dozens of conflicting, defunct and useless branches full of people with no hope for promotion, no place in the chain of command, who are given seemingly important titles and useless duties to keep them busy while the real Seers (some of whom don't even know they are Seers) do the dirty work. They are an organization which oppress themselves, as well as others.

Originally Posted by Deadly

That's what Amun is all about. Destroy the great Lie and free all of humanity (including and first and foremost yourself).

But that's not really "destroying the world", it's "destroying an illusion of a world to find that behind it all is another, possibly better world". Destroying the world is to destroy everything so that nothing is left, or at least so that no life is left.

The phsyical self is an illusion. The body is part of the lie, because it's part of the physical. If you dissolve all of reality, and all that is left is the suopernal, you've murdered millions whose lives and minds weren't strong enough to survive. Their souls, such as they are stripped of individuality, will rejoin the supernal, recharge, and then... What? Stay dissolved because there is nowhere to go? Become mana for use by the few remaining mages, who having a chain of command of nothing but the supernal, continue to fight each other, tooth and nail for all of eternity?

Is it worth it?

I think yes.

Originally Posted by Deadly

I do not have a problem with this. Sorry if that was the impression I gave. My problem is with the Archmasters and anything else at that level really. Perhaps I just haven't seen it done well yet, but I tend to be wary about the idea.


Edit: What you describe about veto sounds potentially fine too, because it creates a level of effort, actually. Dude X might have the power, in theory to end the world, except Dude Y has to power to stop him from doing so, thus Dude X must work hard to actually carry out his plan. So we're no longer actually talking about someone who could do it effortlessly.

Aye, being an archmaster is waking up from the realities of a mage to find you actually don't get to do anything. At it's worst, it is a passive aggressive snorefest, like the really bad ponythread RP. At it's best, it is a covert game of subtle machinations, and leading people to come around to your point, or perform actions for you, like the ponythread RP.

[Thanqol]

Firstly, I'm waiting on Tiki Snakes before continuing.

Secondly, oh god SiuiS is going to multiquote the entire Mage thread aaaa.

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Taking control of another's spell. The it-example of Prime, yet specifically left out of the mechanics. How do you handle this juxtaposition? It is a design feature that prime cannot do actual, offensive meta magic. You cannot counter target successes, change their spell factors reorient their targets. Mechanics; a vague term which literally branches out in my mind. I'm experiencing a silver-on-lavender flow chart of conversation. If you respond, please be over-inclusive. I cannot possibly articulate all I wish to. So many questions spring from this point alone, purely of the how can I play this game well variety.

I put this in context of Practises, as always. It's a Weaving effect to selectively alter a spell, upped to Prime 4 if you want to edit someone else's.

Prime is meta magic. Meta magic has baggage though. How could one reconcile the two? At prime 3 one can dispel anything. You would think that weakening, reducing, would be a lesser version. A partial dispel. Is this the case? Can one perfect a spell in place, bolstering it? Can one perfect a spell as it flows from the tips of the Obrimos' fingers? Could your Prime Mage set his hand upon Tessen's shoulder in quiet meditation, perfecting, her radio broadcast crystal clear, bypassing the usual signal haze of concrete and steel, reaching farther? Could her words thus ring more true?

I don't think Prime can straight out buff another's spellcasting like that but I can definitely see an argument for seeing it used to repair damaged spells. I'm sure there's some interesting conjunctional Prime effects.

I wonder, mathematically, which is superior? Rote spells as they are, or making a rote spell a rote action, still based on arcanum+gnosis?

Depends on how many dice you have.

I approve. Hel, this is how I got as far in the pony thread Rp as I did. The best part about godmodders- so used to their own impositions, they would never think to call your bluff. A good front combined with a willingness to fight despite no wing assured victory does wonders. Most same people recognize that if they cannot be guaranteed to win, they just won't fight. It throws them off when you're willing to engage without that guarantee, makes it seem like you've got something under the sleeve.

I've been using that technique with Mask non-stop. She actually does have no powers.

Oh. Uh. I suppose being so prepared as to leave nothing to chance is decidedly Not Acanthus. It finally clicked.

Exactly.

I am currently lookin into werewolf for this reason. To them, this stuff is the higher reality and is a vital, unimpeachable and necessary component of life.

I am simultaneously interested and very not interested in werewolf. Hmm.

That last sentence is beautiful.

I've actually had that thought and made that NPC.

I should note that I mix and match the two. Its a vendiagram, and I have a hard time identifying all but the most outlier, extreme versions of the two. That outer 2% on each side. Case in point, the Jerusalem man? Pegged him as Thyrsus.

Goodness no. While the Obrimos are the Angels of Mage, wielding divine power as their own, the Acanthus are priests and prophets.

I would like to see Jayden conceptualized as Acanthus. Caught up in the narrative of the music, rather than just it's sound. It fits well with her album of noise, too.

She would not be remotely the same person. I've recently revisited a prototype edition of Jayden as a Moros and there aren't two things the same between them.

Have you told your players about that album Jayden released, Thanqol? I think it would show a new dimension to the game, if you provided a concrete example of how the free council actively works to awaken people.

It wasn't actually anything so directed; it was just her making the most magically-laden album she could, which could be decoded into a rote by the right kind of listener. It was actually more a personal project than anything specifically designed to Awaken people. She knows next to nothing about Awakening people.

Familiars have two problems as presented in the books - One, they don't really explain that a twilight familiar is just as good/bad as an embodied one, and Two, they leave out what a familiar can be. You can have a crow, or a rat, or a dog, or something, but you can also have a gremlin, a shoulder angel, or that paperclip that pops up on old windows desktops. You could have an anomaite rolodex on wheel-treads that resemble the datastream cellphone icon with Siri's voice, and it wouldn't cause any issues except sleepers would freak.

The next Mage on my pile has a bicycle as an embodied familiar.

Statblock:

Spoiler

FAMILIAR: The Bike
“You should do more exercise.”
ATTRIBUTES
Intelligence 2
Wits 3
Resolve 2

Strength 2
Dexterity 2
Stamina 4

Presence 1
Manipulation 3
Composure 2

MENTAL
Academics
Computer
Crafts 3 (Field Repairs +1)
Investigation
Occult
Politics
Medicine
Science

PHYSICAL
Athletics 4
Brawl 2
Drive
Firearms
Larceny
Stealth 3 (Too Rusty To Steal +1)
Survival
Weaponry

SOCIAL
Animal Ken
Empathy 2
Expression 1 (Ring ring! +1)
Intimidation
Persuasion 2
Socialize
Streetwise 1
Subterfuge

Willpower: 4/4
Essence: 10/10
Initiative: 4
Defense: 2
Size: 3
Health: 7/7
Influence: Transport 2
Ban: Chained up
Numina: Innocuous, Left-Handed Spanner (Combustion Engines)
VEHICLE TRAITS:
Durability 2
Size 3
Structure 5
Acceleration: 4
Safe Speed: 16 (run 32)
Max Speed: 26 (run 52) 40mph
Handling: 3
- Above safe for 6 minutes
- At safe for 6 hours

Also, am I to be led to believe a pylon is analogous to a cabal? I thought a pylon was bigger than that. Like, 12-20 strong, minimum.

Pylons go all the way from 3 to 20.

Also. Arcadia being what it is, I think the poiint is that a definite answer is out of the question. Both "they are the same Arcadia" and "they are different" are correct. And incorrect. It's maddening.
Changeling is the only splat which does not easily fit into the WoD cosmology.

The Imperial Mysteries take is hilarious and awesome.

"The Exarchs killed all the Old Gods of Thistle. The Old Gods of Thistle are Masters of Time. So they just go back to before they all died, come forwards, and keep doing what they were doing."

Every new beginning is some other beginning's end. Your sword of damocles is no less an apocalypse scenario. It's just semi-contained.

You guys don't know what that sword is. It could be a metaphor. It could be a weapon.

It could be an Angel.

[Anarion]

Originally Posted by SiuiS

Anarion: you've watched the Simpsons, yes? Have you seen the episode where they go to Japan? I'd like a translation of something if you have.

Yeah, I've seen that episode. The box says "Mr. Sparkle." Or did you want something else translated?

Originally Posted by Thanqol

Secondly, oh god SiuiS is going to multiquote the entire Mage thread aaaa.

Hey, you had the same reaction that I did. We should be reaction buddies!
No, I couldn't keep a straight face while typing that.

On other stuff, my first thought for prime conjunctional spells would be take some other spell and infuse extra mana into it. Making a sword with matter+prime? It's going to be the swordiest sword ever. Messing with heat and electricity and infusing it with prime? It's going to be like the perfect imagination of the Sahara desert, or the electricity is going to work perfectly with no dropoffs in power for stupid things like imperfect real-life conditions.

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by Anarion

On other stuff, my first thought for prime conjunctional spells would be take some other spell and infuse extra mana into it. Making a sword with matter+prime? It's going to be the swordiest sword ever.

Exists, called Thaumium, Prime 3/Matter 5, aiming for it with Vulcan.

Messing with heat and electricity and infusing it with prime? It's going to be like the perfect imagination of the Sahara desert, or the electricity is going to work perfectly with no dropoffs in power for stupid things like imperfect real-life conditions.

I think one of the big advantages for Prime-buffing a Forces spell is the option to enclose a power source with it. I am less compelled by the idea of 'better lightning'.

[the_druid_droid]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

Secondly, oh god SiuiS is going to multiquote the entire Mage thread aaaa.

Feels like old times.

Goodness no. While the Obrimos are the Angels of Mage, wielding divine power as their own, the Acanthus are priests and prophets.

Hmm, interesting analogy. Got anything for Moros or Mastigos?

The next Mage on my pile has a bicycle as an embodied familiar.

Is this the Moros too? Or are there even more Mages now?

The Imperial Mysteries take is hilarious and awesome.

"The Exarchs killed all the Old Gods of Thistle. The Old Gods of Thistle are Masters of Time. So they just go back to before they all died, come forwards, and keep doing what they were doing."

Sounds about right.

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by the_druid_droid

Hmm, interesting analogy. Got anything for Moros or Mastigos?

Worldly concerns and tempters on the path?

Is this the Moros too? Or are there even more Mages now?

No, this is my Thyrsus firefighter who's still in backup.

[Tiki Snakes]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

Firstly, I'm waiting on Tiki Snakes before continuing.

Blargle! Gahk!
Aaargh.

Working on it.


Edit - For good or for bad, done. Hopefully the post wasn't awkward and/or stupid enough that I'll regret it too much.

Further Editing - I kind of Love the idea of Werewolf. But kind of hate it, too. Not sure if that ambivalence is for the same reasons as Thanqol or not.
Essentially, the idea of Werewolves is something that interests me enough for perking up of ears and paying attention. I could get down with a heavily spirit world invested game too. But my mental image of Werewolves and the concept of werewolves has so very painfully little in common with the WoD Werewolf that it's almost funny.

Perhaps some of that is simply unfamiliarity with with the material, but more likely it's just a personal taste in wolfmen thing.