Martial Arts in the Playground

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by Morph Bark

I wasn't even thinking about that, actually. I guess I may have given the wrong impression of myself there, sorry. I was moreso thinking that in groups where you're the only member of your sex you feel more quickly left out, or conversations arise that you're either unfamiliar or uncomfortable with.

While I see what your problem is, to be honest it's a bit of a non-issue in my opinion. It's not a social club, you're there to learn a martial art - if the class ends up more like a social club than a martial arts lesson, then you'll probably want to find a new school.

Edit: I just realised that I'm probably biased in my viewpoint of disregarding the social aspect. As an ethnic minority, I'm so used to being outnumbered in a different way that I don't really pay much attention to the gender balance.

Originally Posted by Morph Bark

That being said though, there'd likely be other forms of awkwardness involved if I'd spar with a girl who I find attractive.

While this is probably where the groin guard comes in useful, I think it'd depend on what your personality is like. Aggressive physical action pretty much shuts down any libido I have.

While I have sparred against some very attractive women, I quickly realised that it would be sexist and disrespectful of me to treat them any different - they're there to train, not to get drooled over. If you want to try and hit on them, do so after the class.

About the only time I 'go easy' on my partner is when there's a significant skill/physical difference or they ask me to - I ended up once against one poor girl who about half my weight, 6" shorter and had only started kickboxing that term (I had been training for about 4 years by that point). I just didn't have the heart to spar properly against her.

[Wyntonian]

I've done (shin shin toitsu, Koichi Tohei's style) aikido for about... four years now? I'm not terribly good at the whole One Point concept, and it's been a pretty serious limitation on my art.

I'm considering branching out a bit, maybe into some sort of european fencing or the like. I'll be off to college soon, probably in Portland, Oregon, and I know that there's a pretty significant community of martial artists there too.

Any suggestions for a second style?

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by Wyntonian

I've done (shin shin toitsu, Koichi Tohei's style) aikido for about... four years now? I'm not terribly good at the whole One Point concept, and it's been a pretty serious limitation on my art.

I'm considering branching out a bit, maybe into some sort of european fencing or the like. I'll be off to college soon, probably in Portland, Oregon, and I know that there's a pretty significant community of martial artists there too.

Any suggestions for a second style?

You already have the 'grappling' part down, so probably a striking art (boxing, TKD, kickboxing, karate, etc) to round out your capabilities.

Fencing and other weapon styles should really be regarded as separate to any unarmed art you pick up as it's somewhat difficult to integrate them well (aikido excepted).
That said, if you want to do fencing, go do fencing. Unless you're intending to be in a occupation where being able to fight effectively is of critical importance, you should study what you like, not what makes you the most effective (unless you like being effective).

[Morph Bark]

Originally Posted by Brother Oni

*snip*

I... I think you're getting an image of me that's the opposite of what I want here. I've stated I'm looking for a martial art for the exercise, the sport, with added benefit of self defense. While I'd certainly not discount the social aspect, it's not my primary aim, and certainly not to meet girls as I'm already dating one.

I merely wished to point out that there might be awkwardness of a sort that is utterly uncontrolled. And I'd like to leave it at that, as otherwise the thread will end up in a direction away from its original intent and into one that I don't wish to see it go. There's other threads with plenty discussion on that.

Originally Posted by Brother Oni

Fencing and other weapon styles should really be regarded as separate to any unarmed art you pick up as it's somewhat difficult to integrate them well (aikido excepted).

Why "aikido excepted"? Is aikido so easy to integrate into weapon styles?

Otherwise though, I agree. While holding a weapon, you can't exactly use your hands for other things, which is what most martial arts focus on. Something with kicks could combine with it pretty well though.

[Spiryt]

Originally Posted by Morph Bark

Why "aikido excepted"? Is aikido so easy to integrate into weapon styles?

Otherwise though, I agree. While holding a weapon, you can't exactly use your hands for other things, which is what most martial arts focus on. Something with kicks could combine with it pretty well though.

Any form of wrestling is 'easy' and often unavoidable in encounter - with other hand, general clinch, balance etc. Most Renaissance sword manuals deal with some wrestling as well, for example.

[noparlpf]

Originally Posted by Spiryt

Any form of wrestling is 'easy' and often unavoidable in encounter - with other hand, general clinch, balance etc. Most Renaissance sword manuals deal with some wrestling as well, for example.

Yeah, one of the others newbies and I were commenting on how kumdo is frustrating because you're not allowed to grapple with the other guy when your swords are locked, and it's kind of reflexive to try to trip him or punch him or go for his sword wrist or something.

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by Morph Bark

I... I think you're getting an image of me that's the opposite of what I want here. I've stated I'm looking for a martial art for the exercise, the sport, with added benefit of self defense. While I'd certainly not discount the social aspect, it's not my primary aim, and certainly not to meet girls as I'm already dating one.

I apologise if that's what you inferred. I don't think I was very clear in my post.
What I meant that any issues about awkwardness about being in a predominantly female class shouldn't really be a problem.

Originally Posted by Morph Bark

Why "aikido excepted"? Is aikido so easy to integrate into weapon styles?

Further to other answers, a large chunk of aikido is initiated by the opponent grabbing hold of your wrists. How do you make him go for your wrists and not just punch you in the face - by reaching for your sword.

Anybody who would rather punch you in the face than control your weapon, is usually an idiot who'll shortly end up skewered on the aforementioned weapon.

These days, the sword can be replaced by a lot of other things - for example your mobile phone (to call the police), a pistol (although a lot of that is covered by defensive shooting techniques) or some other self defence tool (pepper spray, rape alarm, etc).

[Kelb_Panthera]

@ morph bark:

having a weapon in hand isn't as limiting in your ability to use non-weapon strikes as you seem to think. Kicks are largely unaffected for one thing. For another, you can still get a hand free even if your weapon is two-handed and there's no good reason you can't punch someone with the hand you're holding a one-handed weapon in if the enemy is too close to use the weapon effectively. You're not doing yourself any favors if you don't learn to integrate unarmed strikes into a weapon style.

The biggest hiccup in this is that the schools that teach weapon styles aren't exactly great about teaching how to integrate complex systems of unarmed strikes into their use. You really only see it in styles that start off as unarmed styles and later integrate weapon use.

BTW, the most useful weapon styles for practical application are the various stick-fighting styles. You don't have to carry a stick around, you can find something similar in most settings.

[Morph Bark]

Originally Posted by Brother Oni

Further to other answers, a large chunk of aikido is initiated by the opponent grabbing hold of your wrists. How do you make him go for your wrists and not just punch you in the face - by reaching for your sword.

Anybody who would rather punch you in the face than control your weapon, is usually an idiot who'll shortly end up skewered on the aforementioned weapon.

I see. Hm, that's very handy. And yeah. The only times you should punch someone with a weapon in the face should be after you control their weapon. Which is usually only when you have two hands free yourself.

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

BTW, the most useful weapon styles for practical application are the various stick-fighting styles. You don't have to carry a stick around, you can find something similar in most settings.

One reason why I'd rather practice kendo than fencing. Though kendo is still one of those "do" arts, I suppose. Are there any other swordfighting styles that could be applied to sticks?

[noparlpf]

Originally Posted by Morph Bark

One reason why I'd rather practice kendo than fencing. Though kendo is still one of those "do" arts, I suppose. Are there any other swordfighting styles that could be applied to sticks?

Kendo is very formal, though, so a lot of what you learn is for scoring points in matches, and isn't as useful in real life.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by noparlpf

Kendo is very formal, though, so a lot of what you learn is for scoring points in matches, and isn't as useful in real life.

^this.

When I said stickfighting, I was thinking more escrima or a style of bo-fighting. Sword technique translates reasonably if you have any object of about the right length and weight to mimic the sword you're trained for, though the balance will almost invariably be a bit off.

[Morph Bark]

True. Especially since with sticks, the balance is usually somewhere in the middle, whereas with a sword it's near the hilt where you're holding it.

Reminds me I'd love to learn Niten Ichi-ryu...

[scurv]

Blackbelts in to many styles are given away to easily anymore. As far as what you get out of martial arts, It will be based on what you put into it.

When you go to the dojo they will teach your body its martial language and words. They may help you build your martial vocab to a respectable level. With drills and competing with others
But it is on you to write poetry with your body, That extra step is always on you, Everyone has their own way of becoming an artist, But that is half the fun.

[Morph Bark]

Considering the black belt means you've mastered the basics (and how a lot of martial arts don't even work with a belt system, I've only heard about it in relation to judo, karate and some modern Korean martial arts), I'd say I'd prefer to go on until the second dan at least, to show I've got a tiny bit of mastery beyond the basics, but it all depends on the art itself.

I tried calling one of the dojos today in a nearby town, but it turns out they don't have office hours on thursdays. I'll call again tomorrow, see what they can tell me about the courses they offer (judo, tai chi, aikido and jiu-jitsu).

I also found out there's a Krav Maga center in my town. Quite a surprise! Their site tells me they offer a free two-hour introduction course, so that should give me a fair insight. Even if I don't take it up regularly, they also have a crash course in it for twice a week, three weeks in a row, one and a half hours each. Couldn't find anything on the price, but I'll ask once I talk to someone there.

Next week it's a holiday week for most schools and thus also a lot of sport schools as well. After that I'll be checking out all of them, if possible, find out what suits me. This will include:
- Aikido
- Boxing
- Jiu-Jitsu
- Judo
- Karate
- Krav Maga
- Tae Kwon Do
- Tai Chi (not really what I'm looking for, but I've never seen it in person, so might as well drop by since it's in the same dojo)

Hopefully it'll all fit in one week schedule...

[Morbis Meh]

Well I can tell you based on my first experience (first class last night) of Judo was really fun though exceptionally draining. A full body work out and the club I am joining is awesome, my friend and i were new and we had a sensai to ourselves for the entire night. I will probably have to start paying after next week but their prices are exceptionally low, 350 (canadian) for an entire year that covers all tournament fees and everything else short of purchasing your own gi. I am really sore but excited for the next class!

[Spiryt]

Originally Posted by Morph Bark

Considering the black belt means you've mastered the basics (and how a lot of martial arts don't even work with a belt system, I've only heard about it in relation to judo, karate and some modern Korean martial arts), I'd say I'd prefer to go on until the second dan at least, to show I've got a tiny bit of mastery beyond the basics, but it all depends on the art itself.

Brazilian Jiu-jitsu black belt cannot be legally obtained (in serious classes) without at least 5 years of being ranked as lower belts, and generally being active.

In practice, most averagely talented and training people will reach it way later, if ever.

And Judo ranking is pretty strongly tied with BJJ, and similar.

So it depends on art, but in those, for example, black belt has nothing to do with "basics" generally.

[noparlpf]

Originally Posted by scurv

Blackbelts in to many styles are given away to easily anymore. As far as what you get out of martial arts, It will be based on what you put into it.

When you go to the dojo they will teach your body its martial language and words. They may help you build your martial vocab to a respectable level. With drills and competing with others
But it is on you to write poetry with your body, That extra step is always on you, Everyone has their own way of becoming an artist, But that is half the fun.

Yeah...at the school tae kwon do club, we split up into two groups, people with some experience and newbies. And two of the people in the more experienced group seemed to hardly be able to manage the warmup pushups; one of those two said she was going for a black belt test soon. Now I don't want to be unnecessarily critical without more information, but I can't imagine passing a black belt exam when one can't do pushups properly and seems to be having trouble with just thirty.

Originally Posted by Morph Bark

I also found out there's a Krav Maga center in my town. Quite a surprise! Their site tells me they offer a free two-hour introduction course, so that should give me a fair insight. Even if I don't take it up regularly, they also have a crash course in it for twice a week, three weeks in a row, one and a half hours each. Couldn't find anything on the price, but I'll ask once I talk to someone there.

Next week it's a holiday week for most schools and thus also a lot of sport schools as well. After that I'll be checking out all of them, if possible, find out what suits me. This will include:
- Aikido
- Boxing
- Jiu-Jitsu
- Judo
- Karate
- Krav Maga
- Tae Kwon Do
- Tai Chi (not really what I'm looking for, but I've never seen it in person, so might as well drop by since it's in the same dojo)

Hopefully it'll all fit in one week schedule...

Ooh, cool. Krav maga is neat. I think if I could I'd try most of those out.


Uniforms seem to cost money. Ah well, sweatpants work alright for now.

[Morph Bark]

So apparently there's several boxing clubs (which also offer kickboxing, which they call "Thaiboxing"), none of them in my town, all roughly 5-8 miles away. One place even offers unlimited training times. Neat, although I doubt it's truly "unlimited" of course! (But probably every night and whole weekends or such.)

This means I get to add kickboxing to my list above as well. Daaang.

[noparlpf]

Originally Posted by Morph Bark

So apparently there's several boxing clubs (which also offer kickboxing, which they call "Thaiboxing"), none of them in my town, all roughly 5-8 miles away. One place even offers unlimited training times. Neat, although I doubt it's truly "unlimited" of course! (But probably every night and whole weekends or such.)

This means I get to add kickboxing to my list above as well. Daaang.

"Thaiboxing" sounds like they might mean muay thai?


Anybody else have asthma or chronic tendonitis and have suggestions for how to deal with them? Today my asthma was randomly causing trouble, so I missed practice. Figure I'll work out tomorrow instead. And the tendonitis in my left wrist is kind of annoying sometimes.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by Morph Bark

So apparently there's several boxing clubs (which also offer kickboxing, which they call "Thaiboxing"), none of them in my town, all roughly 5-8 miles away. One place even offers unlimited training times. Neat, although I doubt it's truly "unlimited" of course! (But probably every night and whole weekends or such.)

This means I get to add kickboxing to my list above as well. Daaang.

Thaiboxing almost certainly means muay thai, which is a pretty high-impact style. It's also a pretty effective style for self-defense though.

Inspite of the similarity in names, boxing and kickboxing are wildly different animals. You may need to ask more questions or actually go there to see which one they actually do at each of these clubs, though I wouldn't be suprised if a couple of them offered courses in both.

Since you're looking at martial arts primarily for fitness, I'd suggest going with a kickboxing course. Many of the long-time boxers I've seen have massive arms with tiny little stick-legs. It's not so much that their legs aren't in good shape, as it is their arms are in way better shape, and it creates a stark contrast that I, personally, find a little comical.

[Morph Bark]

Well, in addition to martial arts, I'd still be doing some jogging/running every (other) day for a few miles, and if I take up boxing I'll likely be going by bike cycling for 16 miles. My legs are pretty thick by nature already, whereas my arms are very thin.

I thought they might mean Muay Thai as well, but in both instances they also referred to it as kickboxing and in neither of them did they mention use of elbows and knees, which is one of the key differences between Muay Thai and kickboxing, if I'm correct.

Silently I'm hoping that one of them is kickboxing and the other Muay Thai, just so that I get to try out more stuff. But I doubt that'll be the case. So far, the nearest Muay Thai club I've found is a good 20 miles away, which is way too far for my tastes.

EDIT: Found a Muay Thai club in one of the other towns around!

[Spiryt]

Many of the long-time boxers I've seen have massive arms with tiny little stick-legs. It's not so much that their legs aren't in good shape, as it is their arms are in way better shape

Their arms are not in 'better' shape, just different. Possibly even in better shape.

Large amount of elite level pro-boxers have smallish, really compact, ridiculously conditioned legs for maximal mobility in the footwork, to be as fleet on feet as possible, with ability to keep it up for long time.

Just adaptation. Most of them with good, classic form just don't need thick legs at all.

I thought they might mean Muay Thai as well, but in both instances they also referred to it as kickboxing and in neither of them did they mention use of elbows and knees, which is one of the key differences between Muay Thai and kickboxing, if I'm correct.

'Kick-boxing' is really broad term for pretty much anything that involves all around striking. There will be plenty of elbows and knees, depending on style and school.

AFAIR "American kickboxing" competitions are pretty damn restrictive, generally with striking with fists and feet above the hip, indeed, but that's only one style of competition.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I may not have phrased that well, but realistically, both the arms and legs have developed muscle memory and fast-twitch muscle fiber, but the arms also have significantly more sustained force muscle fiber*. It's a result of training the arms for both speed and power while training the legs almost exclusively for speed. Long-term recreational and semi professinal boxers tend to be in remarkable shape, long-term damage from repeated head trauma not-withstanding, but the sharp contrast between their arms and legs just looks a little funny to me.

For the record, I don't mean any disrespect if you're reading this and you're a boxer.

*I should really learn the names for those two different kinds of muscle fiber.

[Spiryt]

I'm not a boxer, I'm just pointing out that their legs are very 'in shape' just adopted for crazy footwork all day.

Obviously that's not really given either, see also David Tua and his legs.

Spoiler

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by Spiryt

I'm not a boxer, I'm just pointing out that their legs are very 'in shape' just adopted for crazy footwork all day.

Obviously that's not really given either, see also David Tua and his legs.

Spoiler

I never said that boxers' legs weren't in shape. My last post explains how they very much are, and you're right, it's not a given that a boxer will automatically have skinny legs, but it is a noticeable trend, or at least it has been in my rather anecdotal sampling.

Actually, their legs aren't even really skinny. They just look skinny compared to their massive arms.

Not that I suppose it really matters much how they look as long as they do what you want 'em to do.

[Morph Bark]

Originally Posted by Spiryt

Spoiler

Those... calves...

They're actually making me cry tears of joy and envy just looking at them.

[Worira]

I like how he's just kind of staring down at his legs, like "Whoa! Where did these come from!"

[Janus]

Took kenjutsu back in the day, though we unfortunately merged with a kendo school and I eventually left. The kendo class had too many rules like "You can't use diagonal cuts as a white belt."
....I am perfectly capable of making a diagonal strike. It's not a feat that I have to unlock next level.
Managed to take ninjutsu for a few months before I left the country for two years, and sadly my instructor moved away while I was gone.

On the bright side, I'm going to try German longsword tomorrow with the local ARMA group.

[Morph Bark]

Originally Posted by Janus

On the bright side, I'm going to try German longsword tomorrow with the local ARMA group.

Nice!

On that note, has anyone else come across kendo classes with such strict rules?

[noparlpf]

Originally Posted by Morph Bark

Nice!

On that note, has anyone else come across kendo classes with such strict rules?

In my experience, kendo is super-formal, and it's not even really about a realistic form of combat. It's a somewhat stylised combat to score points in a very specific sort of way in tournaments.

I'd like to find a German sword school, but I have no idea where to start looking, and also those usually cost money.