Vistas of a New World [Total War; Fantasy and Cold War]

[razovor]

Travelling? I've been in Giantitp for a good year and a half now. I'm not going anywhere.

[ArcaneStomper]

Well I guess some of us like to get out and about and some of us are homebodies. Doesn't change the fact that this talk of internet earth and real earth being different is crazy talk.

[hydroplatypus]

I think I realize the problem with Razovor. I think he has spent too long in a historical simulation. Although few bother to learn about history so ancient there was once a time where people actually were limited to a physical body (Crazy, I know but nonetheless true). Now you remember those historical simulations? No? Well remember Call of Duty 2? That was in fact a historical simulation of a historical event called World War 2. Simulations like those are popular but there are also less popular ones. They let you simulate entire lives lived in the time period of your choosing. Unfortunately some people become so immersed in these that upon leaving they have a hard time adjusting to the real world. In the worst cases they can live under the delusion that they have a physical body for long periods of time. I fear that that has happened to our comrade Razovor.

Given he mentioned the US I would guess that he spent too much time in a simulation somewhere between the dates of 1760 and 2254 (approximate beginning and end dates of the USA).

Razovor I recommend that you e-mail yourself to a psychologist, cause you really need to get rid of those delusions of yours.

[TooManySecrets]

Originally Posted by ArcaneStomper

I am still confused on the difference between quality and quantity in this game.

It seemed like quality covered complexity of a task while quantity covered the speed and area. But then you have this.

Originally Posted by hydroplatypus

Generally your first statemtn is correct with regards to quality/quantity. However you forget that there is a minimum quantity requirement for any task. It doesn't matter what you quality is if you fall below this minimum, as you actually have too few people/resources to do stuff.

For instance, I don't care how good they are, a squad is not going to conquor a country, even if it is medieval.

Similarly the complex treaty probably requires a ton of aids to look into existing laws, existing traditions and to overcome any difficulties, whereas the smaller treaty could be done fairly easily.

hydroplatypus is correct in his explanation.

Originally Posted by Eldan

So, I know nothing about America, the Cold War or the fifties. What are my chances of still playing in this?

You're fine. There's a reason I picked the Cold War instead of, say, making a modern game, so it's important that you have a least some idea of what it is, but as hydroplatypus says, Wikipedia is a readily available source. You don't have to be an expert, by any means.

Timeline of Events in the Cold War
Cold War
Timeline of Modern History

Originally Posted by Rafinius

1.)If I got it right then quantity determines what scale of projects you can manage in one turn while quality determines the chance you actually succeed. So if you have high quantity but abysmal quality Diplomacy you could attempt to convince the whole royal court to support your side by talking to them on a one-to-one basis, but most of your men would probably get hanged for insulting the king or something. The opposite stat allocation would take ages to get them all to agree with you but it is pretty sure that they will eventually. Or you could just become best buddies with the king himself. Or to use the treaty example, quantity can make you prepare complicated and large scale treaties in one turn, but the others would still say no. Same would be true for Industry and Research and the rest. Is that correct?

Yes. In absolute simplest terms: quality = success rate; quantity = scope. It's a bit more complicated than that, but that's good enough that you can actually play the game.

Originally Posted by Rafinius

2.)What happens if I use Diplomacy on a PC player? Does it do nothing, like in most DnD games?

Yes, unfortunately. I dislike PCs being immune to social skills, but it helps prevent people from being jerks.

Originally Posted by Rafinius

3.)If every workgroup is not supposed to have a large variety of stats, how are we supposed to only start with one? Wouldn't we at least need two to be a serious department? Or is our military squadron supposed to be in the same workgroup as our magitek eggheads? And if they are all in the same department but have totally different jobs, thus making it probable that we split them at first opportunity, why would they get a morale hit?

When a company (say, for example, Microsoft) wants security, they hire a private security firm to provide it for them. They don't (usually) hire their own personal security guards because it's simpler and cheaper just to rent one. Eventually, a company might get their own security department, but that's only because it's either cheaper or they're needs are too big for any existing firm.

Likewise, the departments of the Special Logistics Detachment are supposed to work together. They don't expect the head of R&D to run his own squad of MPs just as they don't expect the head of security to design and build his own weapons. They have an entire department dedicated to doing that.

(Of course, much like the real alphabet-soup agencies, you're probably going to develop a lot of redundancies, but that's in the possible future...)

And, yes, it is assumed that the stats of a work group are distributed among the entire work group. So, if you have a work group that has Military and Research, then every person in that group has Military and Research. That doesn't mean that everybody has the same level of skill - quality is the average of everybody's skill - nor is the distribution of skills even. There might be one guy who's really good with Military but bad at Research, one who's the opposite, and one's who terrible at both.

Originally Posted by Rafinius

4.)You didn't answer one of my previous questions. To clarify, if I have a workgroup with both military and industry can I order the military part to attack a city and the industry part to build a factory miles away? And if I have a quantity of 5 Espionage in the same workgroup can I sent two to sabotage a player and 3 to infiltrate a village, totally independantly?

No, you can't, for the same reason you can't be in two different places at the same time. Since everybody in the work group has the relevant stats at some level, sending half of your guys off to do something while keeping the other half at base to do something else changes (and usually reduces) the effectiveness of one or both.

Basically, imagine it like this. You have 3 guys. One has MIL +++, RES +++; one has MIL +, RES ++; and the last has MIL ++, RES +. As a group, they have MIL ++, RES ++. Now, if the first dude leaves to do something, the remaining group has MIL +-, RES +- (minus sign is 0.5, by the by). Great, right? So, why can't I just split work groups whenever I want? Well, this is with 3 dudes. Within a couple turns, you're going to be dealing with hundreds, if not thousands, of people. Unless you want to keep track of each of their stats individually, there needs to be some level of abstraction in the game. Yes, you should probably be able to some simple amount of splitting in the real world, but I'm not willing to track the skill level of thousands of virtual guys (and their relationships with each other - remember morale!). Sometimes you need to sacrifice realism in order to have a playable game.

Originally Posted by Rafinius

5.) If the case is that we can actually only do a grand total of one action per workgroup, are we supposed to only do a single action for the first (few) turns?

Yes.

Now, that's a work group related action per turn. There's a reason this is a semi-freeform game and not a system game - because there's some give and take for special cases. If, for instance, your squad of rangers rescues a princess as their action and the princess tells them that they also need to challenge the Black Knight to a duel in his castle a few days ride in order to free her sisters as well, I would probably let you retroactively change the work group's action to doing the entire "quest", and not just the rescuing part.

Originally Posted by Rafinius

6.) Is the personell amount (from the table) of a workgroup based on each stat separately or on the workgroups total stat? i.e. would a workgroup with 5 magic and 5 industry represent [5+5 stats => 25+25=50 men] or [5+5=10 stats => 160 men]?

As I explained, it's highest quantity of any stat.

Originally Posted by Rafinius

8.)
Except for clarification on what quantity/quality means I was asking for concrete crunch and fluff examples on the different stats when players let those face each other off in PvP action, especially if the quantity/quality allocation on those stats is pretty much the opposite for the two involved players.

It depends on how you describe your attack. "I sneak some men into his camp to poison all his food and water" is handled much differently than "I meet him on the field of honor and demand a duel".

Anyways, let's say that you use Squad Elite (MIL ++++++++++ [5]) vs. Army Average (MIL +++++ [10]). Army Average has over twice as many men as Squad Elite does, so Squad Elite gets a penalty to it's effective quality equal to the difference in quantity: a -5 penalty. I then roll a 2d5 for each side, add their quality, and then reduce quantity as appropriate.

'Course, that's in the simple case. Let's say that in addition to a Military rank, Squad Elite also has FLD ++++++++ [5]. Now, of all a sudden, Squad Elite is not just great in stand-up combat - it's also very well-trained in guerrilla warfare. Fighting while outnumbered is what they trained for! So, maybe I reduce the penalty from the difference in quantity. Maybe I even give an effective bonus to quality if they're fighting in favorable.

The long and short of it is that this is semi-freeform for a reason. A simple reason, too. If I were to try to figure out every single combination of stats and actions, the rules would fill five hundred pages.

If you're worried that you're gonna get screwed over because you the rules are sort of freeform, you can also PM me to ask about a specific situation.

Originally Posted by Rafinius

9.) How will the magic stat work in this game? Is it directly responsible for magical effects? Is it for magical research? Both? Also it seems to be able to more or less benefit in every way that the other stats would (fireballs=military, golems=industry, invisibility/haste=fieldcraft, magitech=research, mindcontrol=diplomacy, scrying=espionage). Is it less effective than the other stats or is there a different way for it to be balanced (hard to acquire ect.)

Spoilers.

I'm not going to answer that question because answering that question is sort of the point of the game.

Originally Posted by Rafinius

10.)What is the role of Morale gameplay wise? And wouldn't every faction need it as a stat? That is at least if I am correct with assuming that if they don't have it they are regarded of having it at 0/0 and thus hate your guts and be ficle as hell. Also does Morale quantity increase the workgoups mancount?

Originally Posted by hydroplatypus

Every faction does have morale, as does every workgroup. Given this it does not need to be listed in the stats of a work group or faction. Probably gives a boost to effectiveness at the high end, with people deserting and/or going rogue at the extremely low end.

hydroplatypus is mostly correct. Big difference is that only work groups have morale. Departments don't have them.

Everybody gets morale for "free". In fact, it's the only required stat (though if you don't have anything else, the work group isn't really all that useful.

[EDIT] Yes, if Morale is the highest quantity it increases the size of the work group. Basically, you're training/hiring on additional people who are skilled in keeping up morale and dealing with such issues.[/EDIT]

Originally Posted by ArcaneStomper

But this is the real world.

Whoa.

[Durmatagno]

Wait, so can everyone whos posted so far be assumed as accepted, and your just waiting to post as your pulling your stuff together, or is it your waiting for new players so you can try and balance the group a bit more, or are you waiting for new interest that may replace an assumed member?

[TooManySecrets]

Originally Posted by Durmatagno

Wait, so can everyone whos posted so far be assumed as accepted, and your just waiting to post as your pulling your stuff together, or is it your waiting for new players so you can try and balance the group a bit more, or are you waiting for new interest that may replace an assumed member?

I'm looking for (a) a balanced group of players who (b) have completed sheets that have (c) demonstrated that they're able to write well and imaginatively. I'm also looking for a limited number of players, but everybody who doesn't get in gets first consideration if/when we need more players. Late-joining players might just take over the department of a player who left, or they might get a new department with additional funding, or maybe they'll be part of the secondary site. Cross that bridge when we come to it.

[Durmatagno]

Originally Posted by TooManySecrets

I'm looking for (a) a balanced group of players who (b) have completed sheets that have (c) demonstrated that they're able to write well and imaginatively. I'm also looking for a limited number of players, but everybody who doesn't get in gets first consideration if/when we need more players. Late-joining players might just take over the department of a player who left, or they might get a new department with additional funding, or maybe they'll be part of the secondary site. Cross that bridge when we come to it.

I figured as much, but wanted to be sure before I went preparing to join a new RP on another site, thus mopping up some of the last of my free time. As of right now, I can now leave a slot open for this, and that large scale war.

[The_Admiral]

I won't have to send you into SPAAACE right, Durmatagno?

Also, so first season is building an airfield and short ranged scouting missions. When the airfield is up and I've got a few planes; I believe they'll be sending Mustangs, LONG RANGED SCOUTING AHOY!

[Rafinius]

Originally Posted by Captain_Obvious

I won't have to send you into SPAAACE right, Durmatagno?

Also, so first season is building an airfield and short ranged scouting missions. When the airfield is up and I've got a few planes; I believe they'll be sending Mustangs, LONG RANGED SCOUTING AHOY!

If I understand correctly that isn't possible. You can't command your single workgroup to build an airfield and scout at the same time. Or at least that was what my "only one action per workgroup?" question was all about. That is why it buggs me a bit to have to make a single workgroup for all starting tasks. because if I give them Military/Research/Diplomacy for instance, I will not be able to construct something at base and talk on the battlefield at the same time, except if I devote my second workgroup to Industry too, which in turn would create a lot of redundancy.
Also, ecen if I start with Military/Fieldwork/Espionage only can not have rank and file or specialized soldier squats (cavalry, snipers, what have you) until mid-game, and even then only if I want to gimp myself powerwise. At first I would have to make due with one combat workgroup until I have all the other workgroups I deem necesarry, thus having an army consisting only of jack-of-all-trades, which feels a bit weird. And later on, deciding to open another workgroup to have a sensible arms division fluffwise, I gimp myself because I could have used my Economy to increase my main battlegroup instead and thus get more men or better training/equipment for my whole team (by dump-investing quantity/quality always at the same place).
Ah, well. Maybe I'm just too stuck in my normal TW expectations (I will forward you one of my EoTs so you see where I'm coming from). Even though I am trying to make you reconsider our starting situation, I hope to play either way. I'd just have to restructure the crunch and playstyle I had planned for my faction.

[The_Admiral]

Just have a couple of dude make short flights in a helicopter while the rest help with the construction. Realistically it should work, shouldn't it?

[Umbranar]

Always funny to see people planning and then events screw it up.
Anyway my "plan" is to keep the natives at bay, probably start with perimeter defences. For those trying to exploit the living crap out of the natives...I hope the Major General leaves you be and doesnt order PSFA to step in. Hope we start soon

[hydroplatypus]

My first turn plans are to get my scouts to explore the general area around the camp, and give a general report on the natives' capabilities. Especially on the frequency and apparent power of the magic should it be possible. So feel free to leave the scouting to me and work on the base first turn.

@Rafinus: I'm thinking that it might take more resources to go from size 15 to size 16 than from size 2 to size 3. If this is so it makes multiple work groups a more practical choice.

[The_Admiral]

Whoever's building the base better add an airfield.

[Grimsage Matt]

My guys wil set up a lab, hen get to work researching this "Magic" or "Magitech" thing. Possibly hire a Artifcer, learn the ways Arcana.

[TooManySecrets]

Originally Posted by Rafinius

If I understand correctly that isn't possible. You can't command your single workgroup to build an airfield and scout at the same time. Or at least that was what my "only one action per workgroup?" question was all about. That is why it buggs me a bit to have to make a single workgroup for all starting tasks. because if I give them Military/Research/Diplomacy for instance, I will not be able to construct something at base and talk on the battlefield at the same time, except if I devote my second workgroup to Industry too, which in turn would create a lot of redundancy.

Incorrect. Remember, quantity determines scope. As long as what you're doing is - in my opinion - sufficiently related, you can do it as one "action" by the work group.

"Create a small landing strip along with a light observation aircraft (made Earth side, but reconstructed portal side) in order to start scouting missions" is definitely something that I could see being a single action. 'Course, with the quantity you star the game with, you might not actually be able to complete the action in one turn, but that's a different problem.

Originally Posted by Rafinius

Also, ecen if I start with Military/Fieldwork/Espionage only can not have rank and file or specialized soldier squats (cavalry, snipers, what have you) until mid-game, and even then only if I want to gimp myself powerwise. At first I would have to make due with one combat workgroup until I have all the other workgroups I deem necesarry, thus having an army consisting only of jack-of-all-trades, which feels a bit weird. And later on, deciding to open another workgroup to have a sensible arms division fluffwise, I gimp myself because I could have used my Economy to increase my main battlegroup instead and thus get more men or better training/equipment for my whole team (by dump-investing quantity/quality always at the same place).

I think you're overstating the level of gimping. Remember, pretty much everything is an exponential increase. That means - ignoring the initial, constant cost of creating a work group in the first place - it takes around as much effort to advance a group from quantity 5 to quantity 7 as it does to advance a group from nothing to quantity 5. Having 2 less quantity is a penalty, but it's not all that huge of a one, since you're now getting an additional action.

Remember too that nobody is forcing you to have a starting work group with three stats. You can go ahead and start with a work group that has one stat - and have higher quantity and quality as a result.

Once again, I intend (and hope) that departments will work together. Because if you don't, you will surely all fall apart.

Originally Posted by Rafinius

Ah, well. Maybe I'm just too stuck in my normal TW expectations (I will forward you one of my EoTs so you see where I'm coming from). Even though I am trying to make you reconsider our starting situation, I hope to play either way. I'd just have to restructure the crunch and playstyle I had planned for my faction.

How many people are there in a normal Total War faction? At least hundreds of thousands, with most being millions or even billions. Your work group is going to be (around) 50 people.

In normal Total War games, the number of actions you can do is limited solely by your stats. If you have 14 in a stat you could (technically) have to decide what to do with by splitting it down to 14 different things. In this game, your actions are much more limited in number. At a glance, you can tell how many actions a player can do a turn - it's their number of work groups.

"Now wait a second," you might be saying to yourself, "if our work group can only do one thing a turn, then it shouldn't take all that long for everybody to declare what they're doing, right?" Right you are! There's a reason that I'm pushing for quicker game turns.

[hydroplatypus]

Originally Posted by TooManySecrets

How many people are there in a normal Total War faction? At least hundreds of thousands, with most being millions or even billions. Your work group is going to be (around) 50 people.

hmm... 50 seems a bit larger than I expected for my first work group. I suppose I can work with that though, as it lets me cover more ground with my scouts.

Also expect me to have quite a few small work-groups going as the game progresses, as I expect that scouts (current group), special forces squads, spies, and magic divisions at minimum. Maybe a small group for assassins to get the specialty bonus should the people in our immediate vicinity not agree to being exploited by cooperating with our task forces.

[ArcaneStomper]

If anyone in one of my games splits a stat with 14 points into 14 individual actions I would track them down and kick them in the shin.

[Durmatagno]

Originally Posted by ArcaneStomper

If anyone in one of my games splits a stat with 14 points into 14 individual actions I would track them down and kick them in the shin.

I like to multi-task, what can I say. But, the actions are usually only three or four max, not fourteen.

[hydroplatypus]

Originally Posted by ArcaneStomper

If anyone in one of my games splits a stat with 14 points into 14 individual actions I would track them down and kick them in the shin.

This makes me want to change my shards EOT, and put all 21 of my ESP points into different actions. Also all 10 of my research, all 10 of my morale, and all 6 of my army, and 2 of my shards. For a total of 49 actions. That would be hilarious.

[ArcaneStomper]

Fortunately in Shards actual actions are limited beyond normal Total War games. Stats are mostly used in a specific turn, and don't do things that need to be tracked as investments.

So I'd be able to just say that nothing you did had much effect and leave it at that.

And also have the Tripartite Alliance declare war on you of course.

[Grimsage Matt]

Originally Posted by ArcaneStomper

So I'd be able to just say that nothing you did had much effect and leave it at that.

And also have the Tripartite Alliance declare war on you of course.

Eh, just do what I'd do. Have them wake something up/cause some sort of disatser/Have the scarist thing under 2 feet delcare war on 'em. Or, and I'm keeping this in reserve, the mightest thing in the cosmos, The GM sticks his head out of a cloud and tells them to knock it off

[hydroplatypus]

Ya, I'm usually not that much of a problem to keep track of. I like to only have a few things going on. Usually only two or 3 actions at a time. I then just shove all my relevant resources at them until it finishes. Probably makes it really easy for the DM to track.

[NM020110]

You have my attention, here. If I'm not too late, I'll begin writing my faction shortly.

[TooManySecrets]

Originally Posted by NM020110

You have my attention, here. If I'm not too late, I'll begin writing my faction shortly.

Go right ahead.

[Grimsage Matt]

Just wondering, so far as magic and madness are concerned, but would that greatest of mystic arts, Xenotheurgy be avilable? Because it would be awesome if it was Would defintly make things more.... intresting anyway.

[NM020110]

Alright, I've got an idea. Hopefully I'm not going too far on it.


CSF

Leader:

Spoiler

Captain (former) Aleksandr Vassiljevitj Ivanov, 3rd Guards Rifle Division, Red Army.

Aleksandr was once a sniper for the red army. Once, it had been his task to hunt down those deemed dangerous to the Union. He hunted across battlefields throughout the War, seeking those consigned to death, and seeing the deed done. However, when he started getting orders to eliminate his own comrades which were questioning their loyalty, doubts began to form.

After the war, Aleksandr came to be posted as a border guard, charged with keeping the border between the Union and Western Germany. It was when one of his closest friends attempted to flee the Union, and died by the bullets fired by his fellow guards that Aleksandr's doubts crystallized. He got his chance to act on those doubts three month's later when, due to a light shift, he was left unwatched while on duty. He was declared to have deserted at the scene, having left behind his various awards.

Two years later, in 1952, he arrived on the shores of the USA, alongside a fair number of like-minded individuals. Though they don't seek acknowledgement, the CSF (Communal Society of Friends) has been growing slowly, both in numbers and in affluence, as they support each other as their values dictate.

Though there is no leader within the CSF, Aleksandr tends to give rather motivational speeches, and so he was approached with the offer of relocating the commune somewhere in dire need of aid. A short time later, Aleksandr's commune was in the process of moving to aid those whom they believed needed the help, and offers began to come in from other communes to join the effort.

Values:

Spoiler

To aid others with one's own talents. To pursue the dream of harmony, freedom, and equality for all. To pursue the dream of a perfect society which the Union has abandoned.

These are the goals which every member of the CSF shares, regardless of race, gender, or background. They are willing to pursue these goals to their death.

Workgroups:

Spoiler

Most of Aleksandr's commune came with him when he left to aid those in need, no doubt due to the speech that he gave on the night of the day upon which he received his message. They come from highly varied backgrounds, and are both skilled and motivated.

Stats:
Industry (decent man-power and quality)
Diplomacy (high quality, only one man)
Morale

Special:
Communal Spirit (I'll let you decide how, or if, you wish to represent this. Possibly as a simple tech, or as a reduction to the penalties for splitting and merging workgroups.)

Edit: Thinking over it for a few days, I think that a tech-boost to morale would be the best method here, were this trait to be included.

I believe that this covers the faction, though I'm probably missing something (sanity, perhaps?).

Edit2:
I'm adding a section or two to address the concern over why the CSF is being sent to the new world. Here's to hoping that I can do Aleksandr's speeches justice. I know that I didn't do the dialogue between the major general and an un-named aide very well, having no reference frame for military interaction...

Spoiler

"Report."

"Sir, yes si-"

"At ease."

"Thank you, sir. There are no problems at this time, sir."

"Details, now."

"Yes, sir. There are multiple military and scientific squads mobilized and ready to move. An industrial unit is prepared to move in. The panel of occultists bowed out, sir."

"Regretable. There is only one industrial unit?"

"Yes, sir."

"Find another group, then. I don't want this to fall through because we strained our infrastructure trying to feed the people we send through."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Sir, assignment complete, sir!"

"At ease."

"Thank you, sir. I have located a suitable source, sir."

"Details, lieutenant, details.

"Sir, FBI intel reports communists in most major cities. There is political pressure to have them removed from sight, sir."

"And why should we go to the trouble of sending a bunch of Commies with our troops?"

"Sir, the closest commune has well-known tendencies towards non-violence. They will be easily controlled, but will give us much-needed man-power accross that portal. Finally, their disappearance will not cause suspicion to arise in regards to this project, sir."

"Thank you. Draft a letter to the commune you mentioned, and have someone monitor their response."

"Sir, yes sir!"

Spoiler

"My friends, I come before you today because I have received a letter, from Major General Nelson Hollender, of the Special Logistics Division within the U.S. armed forces. It claims that they need us to come, and help them in their time of need. This alone would be enough for me to go, but I will not leave without speaking of why this letter was sent here.

I am not blind, and as you would expect of me, I will not disguise the truth which I see. The United States has been led to fear what we represent, by it's politicians and by Mother Russia. They have seen that we do not love war, and worries that we will spread that. I will not deny it, for fully half the number here have joined from within America's borders. We have grown, and Mother America worries that we will continue to grow, and consume her from within.

America may fear us, but we fear her not. We embrace all who come to us, and ask not for payment. Just as we embrace each other, so to do we embrace America. Tomorrow, I will go, to aid the armed forces of America where they need aid. Tomorrow, I will go to prove the fears of her generals and politicians wrong, by showing that we do not seek to consume, but rather to empower her. If you will walk this path beside me, then I propose that we show Mother America our spirit, and march forth proudly to provide for her!"

[The_Admiral]

Sorry for being rude GM, but when do we start?

[Grimsage Matt]

K, stuff is coming up, so I'm withdrawing intrest.

[razovor]

Okay. Added stuff to one of my leaders. I'll get to adding more stuff tomorrow.

[TooManySecrets]

Originally Posted by Captain_Obvious

Sorry for being rude GM, but when do we start?

Probably this week. I'm going to write up a list of who has submitted stuff and who I think has an acceptable submission later tonight (hopefully). I'll give a few days for anybody to finish up/improve their stuff, and then we're off.

I will be accepting people to make submissions at a later time, but I want to do it in a "wave" approach instead of just trickling in additional submissions.

Exthalion, if you're reading, you will be able to join whenever you want (as long as your submission is good). Consider it payment for services rendered.