Quote:
Originally Posted by Rejakor
Purely by RAW, you use the Falling Damage by Weight table in the DMG, which caps out at 20d6. (you can extend it for larger weights, but the only way to extend it by RAW is to be a hulking hurler - they use a formula, not a table, specifically in their class, so they can do more by throwing stuff)
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No. Throwing creatures really isn't in the rules, other than the horrible Fling Ally/Fling Enemy feats, so RAW isn't exactly clear here. But the creature being thrown isn't being accelerated by gravity beyond what any other projectile would experience. If you want to go by RAW (or at least get close to it), you'd treat the creature as an improvised weapon.
There is no such formula for calculating damage in the Hulking Hurler text. What it does say is, "Use the rules in Chapter 4 of this book to determine the amount of damage the thrown weapon does." This is referring to the Improvised Weapon Damage table on page 159. The table maxes out at 400 lbs (5d6 damage)
, and by RAW there's no indication that it goes beyond that weight. However, many optimizers have progressed that table beyond 400 lbs by using a formula, which is how you get Hulking Hurlers throwing planetoids made out of osmium for millions-d6 damage., +1d6 per additional 200 lbs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rejakor
Also you can't do free actions on other people's turns. You can only do Immediate actions. Or Readied actions. So the MMoF would have to READY to change shape on his turn, get thrown, readied action goes off, and then he doesn't get to act again until that point (where his readied went off) comes around again in the initiative order. Otherwise he gets thrown and lands on the thrower's turn, all in tiny form.
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This is mostly correct. From the PHB: "You can perform one or more free
actions while taking another action normally." That "another action" could be an immediate action, so you could piggyback a "free" onto an "immediate" outside of your turn, if need be. Readying an action also allows you to interrupt the turn order, but while you could ready a "free action", it's more likely that you'll want to ready some other standard action, such as an attack, and combine it with the free action. Turn order would look something like:
10: Player B readies an action, stating he will make a standard attack when thrown into melee range of an enemy.
9: Player A, a Hulking Hurler, picks up Player A and hurls him at an enemy.
9: Player B now takes his readied action, shapechanging first as a free action, and then making a standard attack in mid-air.
9: Assuming Player A hit his target with a normal ranged attack, improvised weapon damage is calculated based on Player B's weight.
8: initiative order continues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordDrakulzen
Does the throw land short?
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Why would it land short? If Player A misses his attack roll with a thrown weapon, you use the "Missing With a Thrown Weapon" diagram on page 158 of the PHB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordDrakulzen
Does Player A hit the spot he aimed for (provided the ranged touch attack was successful)?
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It's only a ranged *touch* attack if you're throwing a splash weapon. If Player A is throwing at a particular square/intersection, rather than a specific creature, then that's considerably easier to hit. From the PHB:
"You can instead target a specific grid intersection. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5. However, if you target a grid intersection, creatures in all adjacent squares are dealt the splash damage, and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature. (You can’t target a grid intersection occupied by a creature, such as a Large or larger creature; in this case, you’re aiming at the creature.)"
However... if you throw at a square/intersection above your target's head, you *could* use the easier AC 5 (adjusted for range), and you *could* use the Falling Object rules.
If you're just using the Core rules, then there's a quirk to the Falling Object rules in that the damage is calculated by weight, which caps at 20d6 max. (The PHB rules are ambiguous on whether this damage cap applies only to the distance fallen or the weight calculation, but the Rules Compendium unambiguously states, "A falling object can deal a maximum of 20d6 points of damage.") Unfortunately, the Rules Compendium didn't attempt to close one of the more interesting loopholes in Core: there is no explicit Ref save to avoid the Falling Object damage. You can argue that an attack roll or Ref save is implied, but there are no clear guidelines in the Core rules to cover what happens when you drop heavy objects on a target. Some DMs may allow a Ref save or require an attack roll, perhaps treating the falling object as a "Falling Block Trap" (DMG p. 72).
If your group has access to Heroes of Battle, then you can use the Aerial Bombardment rules on page 68. AC is 5, range increment is 50', -4 penalty for an improvised weapon, and the flying creature's maneuverability may incur an additional penalty. The target is allowed a Ref save DC 15 to avoid damage. An attack that misses uses the thrown weapon scatter diagram from the PHB, but since this never scatters more than 5', dropping a huge-sized projectile ensures a hit on at least the target square.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordDrakulzen
Does being thrown count against Player B's movement, and thus count as a move action?
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No. Player B is being moved via another entity/agency. He's not using any of his movement modes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordDrakulzen
When hit by the now Nagahydra (our current favorite form) Player B, does the creature take damage from the now Huge, 20,000 pound creature? Which would then bite the creature?
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As an improvised thrown weapon, yes. 5d6 damage per the table
, assuming you are not extending the table to cover weights higher than 400 lbs., +1d6 per additional 200 lbs. 20,000 lbs = 103d6. (If you can convince your DM that the projectile is "sharp", you can double the effective weight to 203d6).
If Player B readied an action to attack, yes, he could get in a bite attack.
Note that Player B does not take any damage for being a projectile. Some DMs may incur falling damage on Player B, using the distance thrown as the height of the fall. If so, you may be able to use a Tumble check,
catfall power, boots of landing, or the Landing armor property to negate some of this.
If you really want to uber-optimize this tactic...
1) Player B readies an action to attack when thrown within melee range.
2) Player A (Hulking Hurler) grabs Player B, and throws him into a square 10' above his target. AC 5, adjusted for range.
3) Player B falls 10', activating Battle Jump (Unapproachable East), turning his 10' fall into a Charge attack. As he falls into melee range, his readed action triggers, and he shapechanges into a Nagahydra as a free action.
4) Presumably, Player B picked up Pounce somewhere, so his Charge attack is now a Full Attack. Nagahydra gets 7 bites + poison. Add Ubercharger damage multipliers as needed.
5) Player B has six levels of Fighter, Dungeon Crasher ACF, and the Knockback feat. Every attack that hits, he gets a bull rush attempt to push the target into the ground, doing 8d6 damage on each successful bull rush.
6) Player B lands on the target, doing 20d6 falling object damage.
7) You may now have a stacking violation in the target square. You can treat this as an improvised Bull Rush or Overrun: target gets an AoO on the Nagahydra when it enters his square. You then both make an opposed Str or Dex check, modified by size, to resolve who gets knocked to the ground. If you win, your target is knocked prone and you land in his square. If your opponent wins, you're knocked prone, and "move back 5'", which is 5' above the target square, and essentially fall back prone into your opponent's square.
8) If you knocked your opponent prone, some DMs may require a Balance or Tumble check to see if you land on your feet. Using the
catfeet power or Landing armor property allows you to automatically land on your feet.
9) Target not dead yet? Still have a swift action left? Repeat the whole thing with a swift-action teleport, such as the
dimension hop power, Anklets of Translocation, Shadow Blink maneuver, Abrupt Jaunt, etc.
10) At the end of your turn, use a Glyph Seal (1000 GP, MIC) attached to a pocket to draw ammunition or a spell component (free action). This triggers a
dimension hop spell (PHBII). Teleport 10' straight up, Battle Jump turns your fall into another Charge attack, rinse and repeat with multiple pockets/Glyph Seals.
We might be able to make it considerably worse if we go back to Player A and make him the
King of Pong... but then it gets considerably more wonky. We're not really using falling object damage or Battle Jump anymore, and the King of Pong needs to be able to bench-press a 40,000 lb Nagahydra, and the Nagahydra can't ready an action more than once, but the King of Pong gets to throw the Nagahydra with his iterative attacks. Assuming four iteratives, the King of Pong could use Lightning Ricochet+return for the first three attacks, then throw 10' above the target on his last throw, triggering Battle Jump + Charge/Pounce attack, and then after Player B lands he can re-activate Battle Jump with Anklets of Translocation/Glyph Seal teleports. Assuming there's even anything left at that point beyond a bloody smear that you could call a target.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordDrakulzen
Has been bothering me for little while now, and there is nothing I can think of in the real world to simulate this, as the object being thrown is changing shape, and nothing in the real world goes from hedgehog size to elephant size in less than 6 seconds.
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There are projectiles that may change their physical size (parachutes, for example) and thus incur significant changes in air/fluid resistance, but no, nothing in the real world changes *mass* in mid-flight. I'm not really sure getting into the math of calculating the momentum/velocity/etc. would really be worthwhile. Besides, D&D gets really, really strange whenever you try and bring momentum into the discussion (e.g., the "Commoner Railgun"). Think of the catgirls, of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitz10019
Are you allowing this without requiring the Fling Ally feat in Races of Stone (p.139)? It's worth a read even if you are not using it.
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Not worth it, actually. Fling Ally requires a move action to grab and limits you to a standard action to throw. You can get more mileage out of your actions by just treating an ally as an improvised weapon. Improved Grab lets you combine a touch attack/grapple to grab/lift, and "Really Throw Anything" from Hulking Hurler lets you use your iteratives to throw instead of limiting you to a standard action. This leaves you with your move action and any remaining iteratives to do something else.
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