Runner Base Class [3.5]

[Soliloquy]

I would like to state that I agree with Raiki, that ToB doesn't fit this class, and would like to propose an alternative.

Quickening Run: Each round in which a Runner takes a full round action to run as fast as he can in a straight line, his speed temporarily increases by 10ft.

At X level the Runner may turn up to X degrees while using Quickening Run.

At X level the Runner may turn up to X degrees while using Quickening Run.

At X level the Runner may turn up to X degrees while using Quickening Run.

At X level the Runner may turn as much as desired while using Quickening Run.

A Runner whose speed reaches 50 can do blank.

A Runner whose speed reaches 80 can do a better blank.

A Runner whose speed reaches 100 can do an ultimate blank.

A Runner whose speed reaches 250 can do whatever he wants.

[zetsu1919]

Wow, great Jon with the class, this is the first runner class that has impressed me, it's a hard archetype to make good, and you've done a fine job

[JKTrickster]

I disagree - I think an initiator would be perfect for this.

What you can do is that you can key the recovery method to work off of how much feet the Runner has moved in a single round. For example, every 10 ft allows the Runner to recover one maneuver.

Now I didn't make this up: this is an idea from another piece of homebrew, the Vanguard - which is more or less the same thing as yours.

I like how the Vanguard has one of the most unique recovery methods for initiators and it ties in so well with the general idea of Runners.

Of course that class has some lackings of its own and I would greatly appreciate if you picked up where Person_Man left off!

[Merchant]

My suggestions for Disciplines should be any that focus on unarmed base because I see a Free runner being unarmed about 99% of the time while free running.

Though I said that about being unarmed by choices would be:
Oncoming Storm (a few very cool disarming abilities)
Monkey Grip aka Maula Kae (focuses on grappling I see the free runner as those martial arts where they protagonist is very mobile grabbing at odd moments and throwing or punching someone)
Dancing Leaf(counters and bonuses to dodge)
Army of One(iffy because it is so battle-centered but to me it focuses on speed)
Lightening Fox(Person Man's seems perfect as well)

Though the rogue has its own abilities, but I see Defensive Roll a very FreeRunner technique. Maybe create a class feature similar to it and then improve on it.

That's all I got so far. But I just wanted to say that I think you did great work on this class. The more I read the less I was able to critique. I had ideas but it seems like the basics of the whole principle of free running has been brought out in this class.

Oh one more thing. Should there be a penalty if you can not use one or your hands? I know you have the running on walls and jumping from a run, but it just crossed my mind. What about getting a circumstance bonus if you stretch for an hour in the morning? Sort of like using masterwork tools, but for parkour it is just stretching and preparing your body?

EDIT:
Army of One is actually quite redundant seeing as how you get many attacks already. Same goes for those 'air' based Disciplines. They are redundant with the class features you already have. I'm not particularly thrilled by putting in Disciplines but at the same time it makes sense that people that refine movement would probably come up with fighting style of sorts for when they get into tough situations.

If you don't want to focus on fighting then perhaps bonuses to escape artist which adds both to combat as well as slipping through tight spaces, right? Disarming and Escape artistry should be added. If this is not a combat oriented class then simply putting others on the same field as him/her should be priority.

EDIT2:

I know you can run up a wall. Is free falling considered "running" down a wall?

There is no running on a ceiling, right? I'm currently trying to visualize a battle versus two Runners. If you do add disciplines. I would say they have to choose 1 maybe(!) 2 out of the 4 or 5 choices. That way each runner has his own style ingrained through his training/personality.

EDIT3:

Saw a maneuver (Oncoming Storm) that got rid of concealment which made me think, what if you got a class feature that helped you make use of your surroundings to gain concealment.

There was a maneuver (Lightning Fox) that allowed you to kick up dust, dirt, etc.. That seems like a good and right flavored ability for the user.

Fools grip is good simply for the weapons that one might find while running. What about doing some ranged combat while running. Like kicking a can to ricochet and hit someone following, all while running? I think whips might be flavorful weapon and tool. Maybe some kind of technique for swinging though it isn't really free running.

Increase reach by 5 feet(class feature)
Zig Zagging- Sidestepping while running, giving a blur effect?
Tripping seems important too while tumbling. Tripping bonus?

(lightning fox) had a Momentum maneuver. I suggest a class feature that gives you a bonus to bull rushes, strength checks, etc [check the maneuver] depending the distance you have traveled in one round.

[JKTrickster]

A cool mechanic that could emulate how Runners "dodge" attacks:

You could have them gain the ability to move X amount of feet each time they are targeted by a spell/attack or if that spell/attack misses and the Runner makes her save. The amount the Runner can move can be scaling with level as well.

Basically it would allow the Runner to re-position herself constantly throughout the battlefield as opponents try to take hits at her.

[EdroGrimshell]

Originally Posted by Soliloquy

I would like to state that I agree with Raiki, that ToB doesn't fit this class, and would like to propose an alternative.

Spoiler

Quickening Run: Each round in which a Runner takes a full round action to run as fast as he can in a straight line, his speed temporarily increases by 10ft.

At X level the Runner may turn up to X degrees while using Quickening Run.

At X level the Runner may turn up to X degrees while using Quickening Run.

At X level the Runner may turn up to X degrees while using Quickening Run.

At X level the Runner may turn as much as desired while using Quickening Run.

A Runner whose speed reaches 50 can do blank.

A Runner whose speed reaches 80 can do a better blank.

A Runner whose speed reaches 100 can do an ultimate blank.

A Runner whose speed reaches 250 can do whatever he wants.

Heh, I would have done something like this from the beginning if I didn't have trouble with thinking up stuff for it. If I think of something, I may add it to the run modifiers I have on the class.

Originally Posted by zetsu1919

Wow, great Jon with the class, this is the first runner class that has impressed me, it's a hard archetype to make good, and you've done a fine job

Thanks, I saw this video of a Parkour Artist that actually used it to fight, and that was essentially the inspiration behind this class. I used what I saw, and mechanically made it, then gave some extras to match what I see being the draw of the archtype brought to the extreme.

Originally Posted by JKTrickster

I disagree - I think an initiator would be perfect for this.

What you can do is that you can key the recovery method to work off of how much feet the Runner has moved in a single round. For example, every 10 ft allows the Runner to recover one maneuver.

Now I didn't make this up: this is an idea from another piece of homebrew, the Vanguard - which is more or less the same thing as yours.

I like how the Vanguard has one of the most unique recovery methods for initiators and it ties in so well with the general idea of Runners.

Of course that class has some lackings of its own and I would greatly appreciate if you picked up where Person_Man left off!

I saw the Vanguard, and I have to admit, there is one part of it I like that I hadn't thought of, the Spring Attack line. Gonna see about implementing that somewhere since it fits so well.

Originally Posted by Merchant

My suggestions for Disciplines should be any that focus on unarmed base because I see a Free runner being unarmed about 99% of the time while free running.

I see improvised weapons (a la Jackie Chan) being a staple as much as unarmed. Specifically, I have an image of a runner using a modified grappling hook as a weapon.

Originally Posted by Merchant

Though I said that about being unarmed by choices would be:
Oncoming Storm (a few very cool disarming abilities)
Monkey Grip aka Maula Kae (focuses on grappling I see the free runner as those martial arts where they protagonist is very mobile grabbing at odd moments and throwing or punching someone)
Dancing Leaf(counters and bonuses to dodge)
Army of One(iffy because it is so battle-centered but to me it focuses on speed)
Lightening Fox(Person Man's seems perfect as well)

I do have a few of those listed, I've seen the Lightning Fox discipline, and I don't think it quite Clicks. I will try remaking it to be more up to my own image of the runner, a mobile improviser.

Originally Posted by Merchant

Though the rogue has its own abilities, but I see Defensive Roll a very FreeRunner technique. Maybe create a class feature similar to it and then improve on it.

I can see that, I'll see about working it in there. It does make sense to do that, and I like the ability. May make a modified version.

Originally Posted by Merchant

That's all I got so far. But I just wanted to say that I think you did great work on this class. The more I read the less I was able to critique. I had ideas but it seems like the basics of the whole principle of free running has been brought out in this class.

Glad to hear it, this was a relatively simple class compared to what I usually attempt to create, but it still needs some tweaking.

Originally Posted by Merchant

Oh one more thing. Should there be a penalty if you can not use one or your hands? I know you have the running on walls and jumping from a run, but it just crossed my mind. What about getting a circumstance bonus if you stretch for an hour in the morning? Sort of like using masterwork tools, but for parkour it is just stretching and preparing your body?

Hm, maybe a feat for the stretching, that'd be useful and a good option, but not so good that everyone would take it. I don't think there'd be a penalty for having no hands, at least not mechanically ATM. GMs would probably rule it though.

Originally Posted by Merchant

EDIT:
Army of One is actually quite redundant seeing as how you get many attacks already. Same goes for those 'air' based Disciplines. They are redundant with the class features you already have. I'm not particularly thrilled by putting in Disciplines but at the same time it makes sense that people that refine movement would probably come up with fighting style of sorts for when they get into tough situations.

Part of what I'm doing would be if I made this an initiator would be to remove redundant features, or meld together some disciplines to make this ones unique discipline. Not direct Copy Pastes, of course, but as inspiration they should be interesting.

Originally Posted by Merchant

If you don't want to focus on fighting then perhaps bonuses to escape artist which adds both to combat as well as slipping through tight spaces, right? Disarming and Escape artistry should be added. If this is not a combat oriented class then simply putting others on the same field as him/her should be priority.

That'd be an interesting take, it'd definitely be a good way to build the runner. I'll open up some options for it.

Originally Posted by Merchant

EDIT2:

I know you can run up a wall. Is free falling considered "running" down a wall?

No, but with the freefall expertise ability it may as well be.

Originally Posted by Merchant

There is no running on a ceiling, right? I'm currently trying to visualize a battle versus two Runners. If you do add disciplines. I would say they have to choose 1 maybe(!) 2 out of the 4 or 5 choices. That way each runner has his own style ingrained through his training/personality.

Not unless you have Spider Climb on ya. No running on the ceiling. And the maneuvers known and readied would be rather low because it's a secondary focus. It's just tricks they pick up, really.

Originally Posted by Merchant

EDIT3:

Saw a maneuver (Oncoming Storm) that got rid of concealment which made me think, what if you got a class feature that helped you make use of your surroundings to gain concealment.

Yea, like dodging around an attack, pulling items in front of you, and that sort of thing, I can see that working and may incorporate it as a class feature or a feat. Not sure which yet.

Originally Posted by Merchant

There was a maneuver (Lightning Fox) that allowed you to kick up dust, dirt, etc.. That seems like a good and right flavored ability for the user.

Like i said, I may redo the Lightning Fox Discipline, and that may be one of the maneuvers that carries over. I'm going to look through the disciplines for inspiration.

Originally Posted by Merchant

Fools grip is good simply for the weapons that one might find while running. What about doing some ranged combat while running. Like kicking a can to ricochet and hit someone following, all while running? I think whips might be flavorful weapon and tool. Maybe some kind of technique for swinging though it isn't really free running.

Yep, this is exactly what I was thinking when I thought of adding it. Same with the Stolid Sphinx

Originally Posted by Merchant

Increase reach by 5 feet(class feature)
Zig Zagging- Sidestepping while running, giving a blur effect?
Tripping seems important too while tumbling. Tripping bonus?

(lightning fox) had a Momentum maneuver. I suggest a class feature that gives you a bonus to bull rushes, strength checks, etc [check the maneuver] depending the distance you have traveled in one round.

I've already got ideas for that.

Originally Posted by JKTrickster

A cool mechanic that could emulate how Runners "dodge" attacks:

You could have them gain the ability to move X amount of feet each time they are targeted by a spell/attack or if that spell/attack misses and the Runner makes her save. The amount the Runner can move can be scaling with level as well.

Basically it would allow the Runner to re-position herself constantly throughout the battlefield as opponents try to take hits at her.

Sounds interesting, and definitely useful. Will almost definitely incorporate it into the class features somewhere.

[lt_murgen]

I am going to ask a simple question. Please do not take this as a criticism of your work above, which I think is excellent.

But why not simply make a set of feats to accomplish what you want, and make them thief / skill pre-requisite based? Why do we need another base class?

[Fawriel]

I find it interesting how we took a pretty similar concept and approached it in very different ways! This class looks like a lot of fun and I might want to play it at some point! I've been meaning to make a parkour-style Prestige Class myself, but now I wonder if that's actually going to be necessary...

I can't give you a lot of criticism on game mechanics, but there's two things I'd like to comment on. This is a minor point, but one of the first things you mention in the description is "dirty tricks" and the works, but the class itself doesn't really have any of that, except for the ability to attack with a skillful tumble, which sounds less dirty and more awesome. So the point is, I think calling the class a class for dirty fighters doesn't really hit the core of it, which I think lies in the thrill-seeking, so it only serves to make it more restrictive than it needs to be in terms of flavor.

The other thing I find odd is that the obscene speed at which the runner ends up moving eventually seems to be at odds with how it's a class focused on moving in a city environment, which seems too crowded to allow moving at that sort of speed without breaking some sort of speed limit and a lot of pedestrian bones. Buuut that feature's obviously too deeply implemented to change. I just think it's a little strange, but nothing horrible.

[EdroGrimshell]

Originally Posted by Fawriel

I find it interesting how we took a pretty similar concept and approached it in very different ways! This class looks like a lot of fun and I might want to play it at some point! I've been meaning to make a parkour-style Prestige Class myself, but now I wonder if that's actually going to be necessary...

Thank you, I just saw your Wanderer class myself. However, I will point out that there is a major thematic difference in our classes, yours is an explorer, mine is a thrill seeker. Honestly, I think the two could actually work well together with little trouble or overlap.

Originally Posted by Fawriel

I can't give you a lot of criticism on game mechanics, but there's two things I'd like to comment on. This is a minor point, but one of the first things you mention in the description is "dirty tricks" and the works, but the class itself doesn't really have any of that, except for the ability to attack with a skillful tumble, which sounds less dirty and more awesome. So the point is, I think calling the class a class for dirty fighters doesn't really hit the core of it, which I think lies in the thrill-seeking, so it only serves to make it more restrictive than it needs to be in terms of flavor.

Sudden Strike and the Feint abilities is essentially what encompasses the dirty tricks. The Maneuvers I may add (which will likely include a couple homebrew disciplines I will make myself) will cover more specific cases.

Originally Posted by Fawriel

The other thing I find odd is that the obscene speed at which the runner ends up moving eventually seems to be at odds with how it's a class focused on moving in a city environment, which seems too crowded to allow moving at that sort of speed without breaking some sort of speed limit and a lot of pedestrian bones. Buuut that feature's obviously too deeply implemented to change. I just think it's a little strange, but nothing horrible.

Heh, yea, these guys are built to run, they move fast and make it work. Also, crowded areas aren't really a problem, these guys are roof runners, backalley acrobats, and crowd walkers for a living, they can get around them fairly easily. The speed is pretty high, I admit, but it's their shtick. Plus, parkour is about getting around obstacles, people included, so it's not as farfetched as you think.

[EdroGrimshell]

Progress for the homebrew disciplines is slow, I'm hoping to have the first one up in the next couple of months. I have a whole list of disciplines for inspiration that I've been looking through, and I decided to make three homebrew disciplines specifically for the runner.

Skyline Daredevil: This is the runner's speed/acrobatics discipline, the main one they'll get and the one that will offer the most damage options. It's essentially for adrenalline junkies.

Alleyway Armory: Essentially a discipline focused heavily on improvisation and improvised weapons. This one will offer some versatility to the runner and ensure they always have a weapon.

Pitfighter's Salvation: This one is for the more devious options, dirty street fighting and gritty combat, will offer a lot of debilitating effects, but not a lot of damage.

Note that the names for these things are placeholders that i picked because they were descriptive. If anyone has better ideas please give a suggestion, esspecially for the last one...

[JKTrickster]

Those sound cool!

Can't wait!

[WyvernLord]

Echoing above statement. Can't wait for those disciplines.
Also I love those names.

[EdroGrimshell]

Originally Posted by EdroGrimshell

Progress for the homebrew disciplines is slow, I'm hoping to have the first one up in the next couple of months. I have a whole list of disciplines for inspiration that I've been looking through, and I decided to make three homebrew disciplines specifically for the runner.

Skyline Daredevil: This is the runner's speed/acrobatics discipline, the main one they'll get and the one that will offer the most damage options. It's essentially for adrenalline junkies.

Alleyway Armory: Essentially a discipline focused heavily on improvisation and improvised weapons. This one will offer some versatility to the runner and ensure they always have a weapon.

Pitfighter's Salvation: This one is for the more devious options, dirty street fighting and gritty combat, will offer a lot of debilitating effects, but not a lot of damage.

Note that the names for these things are placeholders that i picked because they were descriptive. If anyone has better ideas please give a suggestion, esspecially for the last one...

I know I've said I'd get to these, but I've had writer's block since the very start and haven't been able to get very far even with all the inspiration I have lined up. I'm hoping to commission someone to make these with what little I have because I honestly cannot get these things down.

And the fact I've never done a discipline before isn't helping any, because these disciplines are kind of ambitious.

Anyone think they could help?

[Dainbramaged01]

Originally Posted by Raiki

Ugh. I followed this thread back in January because I loved the concept, and while I don't think it's perfect, adding melee spell-lists certainly won't make it more interesting or more appropriate to its niche.

I'll stop back in tomorrow or the next day to re-read the class and offer suggestions (unfortunately, I don't have the spare time today), but at the moment just let me go on record saying that taking a perfectly functional, mundane class and adding ToB mechanics to it is, in my opinion, the wrong decision.

~R~

I'm going to directly contradict you, here. Strictly speaking, if one is playing in a campaign that allows and makes use of ToB classes and mechanics, the inclusion of those elements to a T4 class such as this is almost a necesitty. I believe Raiki may be letting his obviously negative opinion of ToB elements color his willingness to neutrally analyze whether, crunch-wise, this is a viable option.

That said, if one is playing more of a core-based game, like Pathfinder, I'd say it's not such a great idea. Also, if maneuvers find their way into the class, I would remove the point-pool mechanic altogether, as various stances and maneuvers can accomplish these same ends, especially if other diciplines from around the Playground are allowed. Another option would be to construct a parkour-styled dicipline, either in lieu of, or in addition to, this class. In the former case, Swordsages would make for perfect practitioners of such a form; in the latter, granting Runners limited access to the dicipline, along with a handful of others, would improve their combat versatility and staying power.

Edit: Wow, bonehead moment on my part. I'd read the entire first page of the thread, and thought it was the end. Diiiiidn't see 'page 2.' So yeah...forget what I said, since you've already done what I suggested!

[WyvernLord]

I'd be willing to try, do you have any notes or basics. I'm thinking a lot of boosts and counters.

[EdroGrimshell]

Originally Posted by WyvernLord

I'd be willing to try, do you have any notes or basics. I'm thinking a lot of boosts and counters.

I have possibly skills and weapons, a lot of bookmarked disciplines to draw inspiration from, and the fluff. Every maneuver I've made before now I've scrapped because they sucked so badly or directly copied from other people, which I didn't want to do.

Skyline Daredevil: Tumble, Balance, or Escape Artist. Unarmed Strike, Dagger, Shortspear, Quarterstaff, Spear, Shortsword, Rapier, and Whip.

Alleyway Armory: Survival or Appraise. All Improvised Weapons, Unarmed Strike, Dagger, Club, Quarterstaff, Whip, and Spiked Chain.

Pitfighter's Salvation: Bluff or Sleight of Hand. Mainly small weapons: Unarmed Strike, Dagger, Kukri, Punching Dagger, Sickle, Club, Shortspear, and Spiked Chain.

Beyond that is fluff, which is mutable anyway.

[WyvernLord]

I was wondering if you would mind if I used Rushes. It will be awhile till I have anything to show either way.

[Milo v3]

If and when you turn this into an initiator, will any of the other features be changed or removed?

[EdroGrimshell]

Originally Posted by WyvernLord

I was wondering if you would mind if I used Rushes. It will be awhile till I have anything to show either way.

Rushes are absolutely okay, they make sense for the class and I like the mechanic, personally.

Originally Posted by Milo v3

If and when you turn this into an initiator, will any of the other features be changed or removed?

Adrenaline will probably be extremely reworked or removed entirely, and the Improved Running features and Fast Movement will be altered to make use of Rushes.