Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

[shadow_archmagi]

Originally Posted by Eldan

To expand a bit:
Winter Assault adds the Imperial guard to the mix. Their thing is that their units can be moved inside buildings for better defence, and that they have tunnels connecting their buildings. Campaign is Imperial Guard.

I forgot what was special about the Tau. There's one campaign for each race, but they are all pretty similar, in that they are all thrown on an overworld map filled with standard missions to take territories.

Soulstorm I haven't played, but it's apparently quite bad. It adds air support for all races, Dark Eldar and Sisters.

Correction: Winter Assault has two campaigns- a Guard/Eldar campaign and an Ork/Chaos campaign, where you alternate between the two (temporarily) allied races, and then you pick which one you want to finish the campaign with for the last level.

Tau don't really have a GIMMICK per se, beyond lackluster melee and terrific ranged firepower.

Soulstorm's campaign is essentially exactly like Dark Crusade, but with a bigger world map and no interesting missions other than the strongholds (Dark Crusade had variety of special locations that'd give special abilities, and then the battles for these locations were unique. For example, the Mark of Khorne location let you attack twice per turn, but to win the battle for it, you had to be the first player to amass two thousand kills.) The strongholds were still fun though.

That said, Soulstorm adds additional units and UI improvements over Dark Crusade that make it definitely worth picking up if you've got friends to do multiplayer with.

[Hazzardevil]

So, I have gone crazy and I am running a Rogue Trader game, and my players want to know about their ship.

They named it the Dauntless and it has roughly 10,000 crew-men. I know very little about ships in 40K though, so I want to know what equipment it would likely be equipped with.

They do have a scanner that tracks heartbeats or body heat, I haven't confirmed which to them.

So, shall we get this thread moving again?

[Tome]

Originally Posted by Hazzardevil

So, I have gone crazy and I am running a Rogue Trader game, and my players want to know about their ship.

They named it the Dauntless and it has roughly 10,000 crew-men. I know very little about ships in 40K though, so I want to know what equipment it would likely be equipped with.

They do have a scanner that tracks heartbeats or body heat, I haven't confirmed which to them.

So, shall we get this thread moving again?

I believe that the Rogue Trader books are fairly in depth on the subject, particularly the core and Battlefleet Koronus.

[Slylizard]

Originally Posted by Hazzardevil

So, I have gone crazy and I am running a Rogue Trader game, and my players want to know about their ship.

They named it the Dauntless and it has roughly 10,000 crew-men. I know very little about ships in 40K though, so I want to know what equipment it would likely be equipped with.

They do have a scanner that tracks heartbeats or body heat, I haven't confirmed which to them.

So, shall we get this thread moving again?

If the book hasn't helped there is a 40k RPG thread here.

[Acanous]

Read Know No Fear, in which we are introduced to Oll Persson. Dunno if I like the idea that some hithero unknown super-immortal thing is going to be the one what helps the Emperor cut down Horus.
Liked it better when it was a Custodes terminator, that was a little more believable, or a regular human troop, which is more relateable.

It being some random immortal guy who isn't something the Emperor did, makes it kind of jarring.

Writing was good, though

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Acanous

Read Know No Fear, in which we are introduced to Oll Persson. Dunno if I like the idea that some hithero unknown super-immortal thing is going to be the one what helps the Emperor cut down Horus.

lol. New kids. Ollanius Pius - Patron Saint of the Imperial Guard - has been around since 2nd Ed. The fact that he's back in continuity after so many retcons, and, the fact that he's

Spoiler

Perpetual like John Grammaticus

is worth much rejoicing.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I think the problem with the revelation about Pius is that he was originally just a normal guardsman. For the tropers in the house, a Badass Normal. Now that he's some kind of superhuman, who didn't even sacrifice his life like in the "legend", the valor of the event is a bit reduced. At least, that's my take on it.

EDIT: Argh. There were no guardsmen in those days. A Imperial soldier then.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Haruspex_Pariah

Now that he's some kind of superhuman, who didn't even sacrifice his life like in the "legend", the valor of the event is a bit reduced. At least, that's my take on it.

Maybe he loses it for y'know, when he does it like he does in the end.

But, you can say the same thing for Ciaphas Cain. His 'legend' isn't what people say it is. Cain, in fact, has very little valour at all. But look how that turns out.

[Zorg]

Ollanius Pious is older than 2nd. He's been around since almost the beginning of 40k and before the Primarchs existed (originally Horus was just a man, and the final battle took place on the surface of Terra in Horus' bunker, so it was more plausible a random mook was present for their showdown).

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Maybe he loses it for y'know, when he does it like he does in the end.

But, you can say the same thing for Ciaphas Cain. His 'legend' isn't what people say it is. Cain, in fact, has very little valour at all. But look how that turns out.

D'oh. I haven't read the book, just the article on Lexicanum, which I misread. Sorry bout that. Need to get me some Horus Heresy novels...

[Maugan Ra]

Ollanious Pious has always existed, and I've always been fond of him. Even the idea that he's an immortal doesn't matter too much to me, really... he has no actual superpowers beyond an inability to die. There was still nothing he could have done to Horus, and he still has every reason to believe intervening would be fatal.

[Platinius]

To me Ollanious Pious never died even as his flesh was disintegrated by Horus, from that point on he wasn't a man anymore, but an idea. The idea the even normal dude can influence the history of mankind, especially in the GrimDarkness of the far future. Isn't that what the Imperial Guard is all about? This man is probably more important than most if not all the loyalist Primarchs. Why is that? Because his bravery made him the Patron Saint of the Imperial Guard, the biggest military force in the 40k universe, the actual hammer and shield of humanity against the enemies within and without, you know, the guys that do the lion's share of all the fighting.

[Cheesegear]

CROSS-PROMOTIONAL!

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

I figure that, generally, living on a Tau world would be better than living on an Imperial world, but it would depend on the Tau worlds and Imperial planets in question.

Actually it doesn't. It depends on the attitudes of the inhabitants. Tau are essentially Big Brother. If you play nice and get along, you'll be fine.

Some will be treated better, some worse.

Like I said, it's up to the inhabitants.

Originally Posted by Carry2

I'm skeptical of this. The idea that life under the Tau is no better than Imperial rule is difficult to reconcile with a number of human worlds that apparently defected to their side voluntarily, even running a significant risk of Imperial reprisals.
[...]
but (to my knowledge) there's very little evidence for systematic brutality on a par with the Imperium. Like Gol Dukat, they could go either way.

The difference is this;

Gue'vesa Bob murders one of his fellow Gue'vesa. In the morning, all Bob's friends wonder where Bob is. He's gone. His room is spotless, it's like he was never even there. Gue'vesa Jane asks her Tau Overseer where did Bob go? Mr. Overseer looks at his census list, and comments that he doesn't know Gue'vesa Bob, there never was a Gue'vesa Bob. And for asking stupid questions, Gue'vesa Jane's medical records state that as of five seconds ago, she's sterile. Now back to work for the Greater Good!

Citizen Bill murders one of his fellow Imperial Citizens. In the morning, all Bill's friends find Bill's decapitated head on the ground next to his crucified body in front of the local Arbitrator's Precinct. And, in big, flashing, neon letters, are the words "Don't commit murder!" connected to Citizen Bill's cruciform. Now everyone move along and play nice.

One method is subtle. The other is not.

Originally Posted by Squark

The inquisition is still there, just without the idiots who failed subtlety 101. All other ideals are supressed, in particular religions (Which is doubly bad considering worship of the emperor is the only thing keeping humanity going). And while they may offer you a place in their empire before the conquer you... If they're making that offer, it means the invasion fleet is already waiting in the wings, ready to descend (And, to be fair to humanity, part of the xenophobia in the imperium is due to the fact that just about every alien species humanity has encountered has justified said belief).

Couldn't agree more.

[Carry2]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Actually it doesn't. It depends on the attitudes of the inhabitants. Tau are essentially Big Brother. If you play nice and get along, you'll be fine...
...Gue'vesa Jane asks her Tau Overseer where did Bob go? Mr. Overseer looks at his census list, and comments that he doesn't know Gue'vesa Bob, there never was a Gue'vesa Bob. And for asking stupid questions, Gue'vesa Jane's medical records state that as of five seconds ago, she's sterile. Now back to work for the Greater Good!

That's a very... interesting scenario. What are your sources for this?

I'm not claiming that the Tau are particularly humanitarian by modern standards (European colonialism being, I think, the best historical parallel,) but as bad as they can occasionally be, the accusation that they treat indigenous or assimilated populations with the same degree of consistent brutality as the average imperial citizen is, I think, lacking in substance.

[Squark]

Well, quality of life may be better. Then again, quality of life during humanity's expansionary phase was also probably much higher. The Imperium doesn't have draconian laws and oppressive policies because the High Lords of Terra are complete monsters; The Imperium is the way it is Because that's the way it needs to be to survive at this point. For a species as psychically attuned as Humanity is, Warp corruption is a major, major concern. As the Tau expand and absorb more species that don't have the luxury of a small presence in the warp, they're going to have to become more like the Imperium to prevent their own Horus Heresy from taking place.

And then there's the issue of FTL; The Tau's empire only works because it's tiny compared to the Imperium; Without FTL comparable to the Imperium's (Only possible for them with Navigators and Astropaths of their own. Which again, requires Psykers; And that involves courting disaster), The Tau's responses will be too sluggish to deal with threats.

[The Glyphstone]

I don't see the Tau being so overtly Big-Brotherish either, that's the way the Imperium does it. If Gue'Vesa Bob murders someone, he doesn't become an Unperson, it's openly stated that Bob proved to be an unfortunate social deviant who's been sent for re-education to restore his psychological health, possibly indefinitely. Gue'Vesa Jane isn't overtly punished for her inquiry, and only if she questions the official record is she punished covertly - remember they want to present the 'helping hand' imagery to the people they've already converted, as well as prospects.

[hamishspence]

The main source for "regular sterilizations to keep population under control" and for troublemakers

"they disappear, and it is the way of the Greater Good to pretend they never existed at all"- is Deathwatch.

It may have gotten those from Dawn of War: Dark Crusade.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

The main source for "regular sterilizations to keep population under control" and for troublemakers

"they disappear, and it is the way of the Greater Good to pretend they never existed at all"- is Deathwatch.

It may have gotten those from Dawn of War: Dark Crusade.

Somebody gets me.

[bluntpencil]

Again, I think that saying this is a bit much. There are a lot of Tau worlds, they won't be the exact same. Much like the Imperium. One Tau governor may be particularly harsh, and sterilise people for minor crimes, or if their family commits crimes (Criminality is, of course, an inherited attribute), or they may rely more on brainwashing education. It may depend. Another Tau governor may let the human planet do whatever it likes, so long as they give them crops or something.

Some will be progressive, others regressive. Mostly regressive though. I don't want to paint them as happy nice dudes.

Yes, they sterilise the population. Yes, they are Big Brother. However, this may vary in flavour from world to world. Just like the Imperium.

Also, nitpick. Arbites don't punish folk for murder. That's out of their jurisdiction and a heresy. ;)

Mentioning Arbites, though, is a good point. They are fairly consistent planet to planet. The punishments for not tithing to the Imperium are quite consistent, and the Arbites ensure that planets tithe required troops, supplies and unsanctioned psykers to the Imperium. They also take a hand in dealing with heresy and anti-Imperial sedition.

Punishments for lower level crimes, like murder and theft will vary widely depending on local traditions.

I imagine the Tau would be similar. On one planet they may allow local traditions, as part of social experimentation, not due to any respect for their subjects. They would likely treat social sciences as something similar to hard science, getting quite cold and creepy at times.

"Hmm, how effective will 80% tax compare to 60%? Try each on two different Hives. Keep it secret, so they do not know they are test subjects."

"Do public executions prevent murder more than sterilisation? We can consult case studies from the following planets..."

[GolemsVoice]

I'd still say that Tau worlds are more unified in their views than the Imperium, but I'd not swear by it. I know at least that military doctrine varies slightly between septs.

But since when do Arbites not punish people for murder? They're normal law enforcements, basically today's police. Only Grimdark.

[Squark]

Originally Posted by GolemsVoice

I'd still say that Tau worlds are more unified in their views than the Imperium, but I'd not swear by it. I know at least that military doctrine varies slightly between septs.

But since when do Arbites not punish people for murder? They're normal law enforcements, basically today's police. Only Grimdark.

Not exactly; The Adeptus Arbites are few and far in between on a planet; If a geniune Arbitrator is getting involved, in means something really serious is going on. However, there's a tendancy among authors to refer to any local law enforcement officer in 40k as an Abitrator, hence the confusion.

[DaedalusMkV]

Originally Posted by GolemsVoice

I'd still say that Tau worlds are more unified in their views than the Imperium, but I'd not swear by it. I know at least that military doctrine varies slightly between septs.

But since when do Arbites not punish people for murder? They're normal law enforcements, basically today's police. Only Grimdark.

What, the actual Arbites? They couldn't care less about such trivial problems. If it's not a riot, a bunch of treasonous rebels or a moral threat to the entire planet, the Arbitrators have better things to do than waste their time on it. Local law enforcement can handle the petty, insignificant breaches. Not that an Arbitrator won't cave a murderer's skull in if he happens upon one while doing his actual job, but there are usually only a handful of Arbitrators in any given planetary system. They're too worried about minor chaos cults, secular anti-imperial rebels, Xenos infiltration, riots and corruption among a planet's top authorities to bother with a trivial murder case.

As to the Tau... The way I see it, they have a very, very dim view of anyone who works against the Greater Good. They won't necessarily kill you, or even sterilize or anything, but they'll probably whisk you away to a reeducation camp in the middle of the night until they've got you thouroughly brainwashed. After all, anyone who doesn't follow the wisdom of the Etherials must be mentally ill...

[BRC]

Yeah, IIRC every planet has it's own local police force. The Arbites serve as the "Supercops". They serve two purposes, they keep an eye on the local government on behalf of sector government or the High Council, and they handle crimes of a more-than-local scope.

Each world/society can have it's own name for these local police. One of the Cain novels mentions that, rather than keep track of whether the locals call them "Marshals" or "Enforcers" or "Lawmen" or whatever, experienced interplanetary travelers just call them all "Arbites".

As I understand it, a murderer gets handled locally. If you murder somebody, then flee to another planet, then you're probably in the clear. If you murder somebody really important, then flee to another planet, then the Arbites will try to track you down, or they'll tell the local cops to track you down and hand you over to them.

[bluntpencil]

Originally Posted by GolemsVoice

I'd still say that Tau worlds are more unified in their views than the Imperium, but I'd not swear by it. I know at least that military doctrine varies slightly between septs.

But since when do Arbites not punish people for murder? They're normal law enforcements, basically today's police. Only Grimdark.

They probably are more unified in their views, as it's smaller and younger, yeah, but there will be some variation.

The others covered the Adeptus Arbites question very well. ;)

[GolemsVoice]

Oh, my bad then. You live and learn, truly.

[shadow_archmagi]

Yeah, the Arbites are probably closer to FBI or MPs than ordinary policemen.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

Again, I think that saying this is a bit much. There are a lot of Tau worlds, they won't be the exact same. Much like the Imperium.

Unfortunately, the Tau are not the Imperium. The Tau are very homogeneous in the way that they do things. Difference = Bad. Remember, Farsight is an abomination, not the norm. They could be different planet-to-planet, but they most likely aren't.

Second, the Tau are as harsh as they need to be for their population. It has nothing to do with the Tau themselves. If the inhabitants want to start a riot. Fine. Tau will play that game. If you want to play nice, the only Tau you see are going to be your Overseer and lots of those Drone things the Tau like to build...In fact, the Drones always look like they're staring at you...

[The Glyphstone]

They're also adorable. Flying dinner plates, guns optional, and they make very loyal pets.

[DaedalusMkV]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Unfortunately, the Tau are not the Imperium. The Tau are very homogeneous in the way that they do things. Difference = Bad. Remember, Farsight is an abomination, not the norm. They could be different planet-to-planet, but they most likely aren't.

Second, the Tau are as harsh as they need to be for their population. It has nothing to do with the Tau themselves. If the inhabitants want to start a riot. Fine. Tau will play that game. If you want to play nice, the only Tau you see are going to be your Overseer and lots of those Drone things the Tau like to build...In fact, the Drones always look like they're staring at you...

In some ways the Tau are homogenizing. In others, they really don't care very much. As long as you respect the Greater Good, give your unquestioning loyalty to the Etherial Caste and follow orders as best you can, you're totally free to worship that primitive human God-Emperor. After all, what's the harm in a little bit of nonthreatening freedom? Practicing cannibalism? Distasteful, but otherwise your species isn't too bad, so you can keep on with it.

The Tau aren't Big Brother. They're very careful, very well-managed and absolutely ruthless in persecuting anything that they see as opposing the Greater Good, but they don't do 'thought police'. Questions are encouraged, because careful consideration and self-education are the first steps on the road to truly understanding the Greater Good. Independent thought is cultivated; constant innovation is the lifeblood of the Tau Empire, and only through independent, motivated thinkers and differing points of view can the rate of innovation be maintained. Small freedoms and recreational time are provided as necessary, because happy workers are productive workers. As long as you're doing what the Etherials want you to do, life in the Tau Empire is going to be peaceful, happy and, in general, far more free than the vast majority of Imperial citizens. It's just that while the Tau are plenty happy to give you as much freedom as you want in the little things, they have absolutely no tolerance for anyone who doesn't do the big things the right way. Want to move to another planet? No, Aun'la assigned you to this facility. If you want a transfer, please submit a well-reasoned proposal to him, and if it benefits the Greater Good you'll get to move. Want to join the military? No, your skills as a farmer are far too valuable. Don't enjoy that Aun'ui sent you to the mines? Tough luck, that's where you're going. Want to leave the Empire? Only an insane being would want to abandon the Greater Good. Off to the reeducation camps until we can deal with those mental deficiencies.

Basically, it's true that the Tau Empire isn't the shining utopia they like to describe themselves as. They have a ruthless streak nearly as deep as the Eldar and will stop at absolutely nothing to conquer the entire galaxy. Their society is based on a rigid caste system that basically precludes any element of personal choice in your career. But, still, they're stable, well-managed and generally a lot more concerned about the quality of life of their citizens than the Imperium. A Gue'vesa in the Empire can expect to have a nice home, plenty to eat and lots of gadgets to make their lives easier. It's no surprise a lot of ex-Imperials are happy there.

[houlio]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

They could be different planet-to-planet, but they most likely aren't.

I don't normally like nitpicking, but: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tau_Sept#.UIiMyMXA_ng