Older D&D/AD&D and Other SystemsThe forum for discussions specifically related to the rules and procedures of either any of the older editions of Dungeons & Dragons (1e, 2e, BECMI, OD&D) or any other non-D&D roleplaying rules (Vampire: The Requiem, Dread), including non-fantasy d20 systems (such as Mutants & Masterminds).
We're World of Darkness: Gotham and we're seeking players and Storytellers in an engaging crossover-orientated game. You will choose from one of four venues - Vampire: the Masquerade, Werewolf: the Apocalypse, Mage: the Ascension, or Mortal. This is a world where nothing is free and everything must be fought for or stolen but can be claimed the same way from you.
We offer:
An active community;
Active Storytellers;
Levels of involvement: from part-timers all the way to hardcore players;
We seek:
Compelling and rich characters;
Players who want challenging and serious stories;
Storytellers capable of leading intense and engaging stories;
Particularly Werewolf Storytellers at the moment
We are a strict game with high standards which only furthers the number of rich and compelling characters found within. As said before, there is nothing free in this world and the price of failure is very steep indeed.
Initial impression: Looks like it's a very ambitious project that wants to span the entirety of the oWoD, but with only the player/storyteller base to do one of them. I might be wrong though, but seems like most of the forum threads are either months since last posted in, or stickies.
Also, not sure I like the implications of a head Storyteller who insists that a vampire character lighting a cigarette must make a frenzy check...
Still, I submitted an idea for a vampire character, so I'll check this out in more detail once I manage to get it approved.
Second impression: Character not approved due to not apparently fitting with what the head storyteller's idea of what a Ventrue should be. Also, powerlevel is apparently measured primarily in terms of the generation background (ie: I wasn't allowed to have a power grandsire since generation is rolled randomly). Pretty sure this isn't the game for me, seems to me this is one of those online games where the players pretty much have to thank the ST for being allowed to conform to their awesome vision.
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"Malt does more than Milton can to justify the ways of God to man, ale, man, ale's the thing to drink for those whom it hurt to think"
Last edited by Driderman : 09-10-2012 at 03:20 PM.
Initial Impression: This game is still in its childhood, the chat being less than a year old. It takes time to build a sturdy player/staff base but that's why we're here! :)
This game is a serious game where supernaturals live on the edge of a knife. We play close to the heart and really focus on the personal horror and danger of each venue, particularly Vampire as it is specifically a game of personal horror.
Second Impression: The power level of a Vampire may be measured in Generation, as it seems most players see it. 'If I'm not 8th Generation, I can't use some powers effectively.' And, to a degree, this might be true. But we're more about accumulating power, scheming, manipulating, getting Boons, and this can be done without the power of the Blood. Just good old fashioned politicking.
All I can say is this, we are strict with character creation. No lying or hiding the truth of that. As of now, we have a small but loyal player base and we're aware our game isn't for everyone. Still, our core players have yet to be disappointed by the Staff. We hope you still give it a go and see for yourself through experience, though!
Thank you for taking the time to share your opinion with us. :)
Initial Impression: This game is still in its childhood, the chat being less than a year old. It takes time to build a sturdy player/staff base but that's why we're here! :)
This game is a serious game where supernaturals live on the edge of a knife. We play close to the heart and really focus on the personal horror and danger of each venue, particularly Vampire as it is specifically a game of personal horror.
Second Impression: The power level of a Vampire may be measured in Generation, as it seems most players see it. 'If I'm not 8th Generation, I can't use some powers effectively.' And, to a degree, this might be true. But we're more about accumulating power, scheming, manipulating, getting Boons, and this can be done without the power of the Blood. Just good old fashioned politicking.
All I can say is this, we are strict with character creation. No lying or hiding the truth of that. As of now, we have a small but loyal player base and we're aware our game isn't for everyone. Still, our core players have yet to be disappointed by the Staff. We hope you still give it a go and see for yourself through experience, though!
Thank you for taking the time to share your opinion with us. :)
I'm seeing all the signs of a strong head Storyteller who doesn't want/dare to let new players in on the decision-making of their own character because it doesn't comform to his vision.
I was also pretty disappointed that the only reply to my character was basically "Nah, that doesn't fit how I want things to be" without any sort of input or suggestion on how to make it work. Especially since I personally think the concept was simple but effective and had lots of room for development. But the "you don't know if your grandsire is a powerful elder, we roll for generation here" comment from the head Storyteller really clinched it as I find that people who think generation = power aren't usually people i play well with.
To be clear, this chat might be an awesome place full of great RP, I guess I just got a bad feeling from it and decided to pull out rather than waste a lot of time on something I wouldn't really enjoy in the end anyway.
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"Malt does more than Milton can to justify the ways of God to man, ale, man, ale's the thing to drink for those whom it hurt to think"
We at World of Darkness: Gotham would like to restate the following:
We are an active community with varying levels of involvement to fit any play style.
We are seeking players and particularly Storytellers of all stripes. If you're interested in Storytelling and love to craft intricate, complex story lines and push your group to its limit then we're the community for you. You must be willing to handle the sheet work of your group of players, or chunk, and commit to one session a week! We want intense and engaging stories for our players and Storytellers who enjoy plotting and scheming.
The other side of the character approval process is awesome. I've been in for nine months now and there aren't a bunch of people running around with the same character concept, or really weird non-format stuff.
You get a real feeling that everyone you're playing with is on the same page about the setting, and is taking it at least both the game, and you, at least somewhat seriously.
At World of Darkness: Gotham, we're happy to inform everyone about something brand new in our coding department!
We have recently added a brand new system which awards Willpower, Blood Pool, Rage, and Quintessence every week based on defined parameters! Less worry for the player! In addition, for Vampire characters, we have a Hunting system which allows for greater ease to refill Blood when base amount each week doesn't satisfy!
There has also been an increase in the player base! There is no better time than now to join us and roleplay with your fellow WoDians! Scheme! Lie! Cheat! Steal! And murder your way to success in the World of Darkness! And there isn't a Chronicle out there as willing to allow hardcore PvP than us! With strict character creation and no-nonsense Stortellers, every character you meet is just as fleshed out and ready to rock it as you are!
I am astonished that you market both the difficulty of gettin into the game and the ease with which a fellow can murder you in the same area of your pitch. Would those not be contradictory?
It is a cross-over game and we do not have a Chronicle which promotes sitting around, gaining experience, and not taking risks. In each venue, there is the chance of player-versus-player situations and particularly Vampire players understand everything is a struggle with each other.
Obviously if a character does not take great pains to cover his or her tracks, consequences will follow quickly and inevitably!
I say hardcore because there is no *****-footing around and when player-versus-player happens, it is vicious and merciless. This is the World of Darkness. It's a bleak and dangerous place to dwell. There are no sparkling vampires or house-trained werewolves.
We don't lie to potential recruits and there's no need to hide the reality of the Chronicle. We also understand this is not for everyone (or most everyone). We make no apologies for the Chronicle or its themes.
It is a cross-over game and we do not have a Chronicle which promotes sitting around, gaining experience, and not taking risks. In each venue, there is the chance of player-versus-player situations and particularly Vampire players understand everything is a struggle with each other.
Obviously if a character does not take great pains to cover his or her tracks, consequences will follow quickly and inevitably!
I say hardcore because there is no *****-footing around and when player-versus-player happens, it is vicious and merciless. This is the World of Darkness. It's a bleak and dangerous place to dwell. There are no sparkling vampires or house-trained werewolves.
We don't lie to potential recruits and there's no need to hide the reality of the Chronicle. We also understand this is not for everyone (or most everyone). We make no apologies for the Chronicle or its themes.
But you've got a self-contradicting meta system. What you're tellin me is that your chronicle integrity is so important that it's possible if I die, I can't come up with another character who "fits" your "theme" for months on end. You make it hard to join, easy to be booted, and hard to get back in free you're booted. That just promotes recycling of Concepts and prevents deviation. I don't understand how you think forcing that level of stagnation is a good thing.
On the other hand, paranoia, oncern for your safety as stagnation are wonderful, wonderful vampire chronicle themes. Terrible terrible idea for werewolf, of course, but the zeitgeist seems to be screw everything but vampires nowadays.
There seems to be an automatic response when it comes to Player-versus-Player. Maybe it's because as a species we automatically think violence as it is our nature. Or because video games show that as the only viable form of PvP. We have had many successful PvP scenes which did not result in combat or violence. I mention combat because it is a possibility.
In the end this is a Chronicle for mature individuals who understand without risk there is no reward. That antagonism from fellow PCs is in the nature of the game universe. If a plan fails and a player end up severely punished for his or her mistakes, then the player should be able to handle the repercussions. Our Storytellers do not put on the kid gloves or restrain punishment out of fear of losing a player.
This is the World of Darkness. It is an antagonistic setting. Tradition Mages war with the Technocracy while dealing with their own internal strife, sometimes result in hatred between fellow Tradition Magi. Werewolves bicker with each other over territory and rights of leadership, even going so far as to developing rivalries between one another. And Vampires are Vampires, scraping for ever morsel of power they can grasp.
We do not apologize for the nature of the game. Or it's PvP content. But this is not a game in which combat monkeys excel. Many plots and intrigues are political and social in nature and while combat can happen, it will not aid a character against a bulldozer aimed at your Haven during the day.
There seems to be an automatic response when it comes to Player-versus-Player. Maybe it's because as a species we automatically think violence as it is our nature. Or because video games show that as the only viable form of PvP. We have had many successful PvP scenes which did not result in combat or violence. I mention combat because it is a possibility.
Ah, I see. That is because PvP, while composed of the letters to make an acronym of Player versus Player, is its one discrete thing which is more than the sum of it's word components. Player versus Player is killing each other for sport. It's even more so when you consider that having social and political goals contrary to a fellow player isn't PvP in any sense, it's just role playing verisimilitude.
What got me in particular was;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinxed_Oracle
scheme! Lie! Cheat! Steal! And murder your way to success in the World of Darkness! And there isn't a Chronicle out there as willing to allow hardcore PvP than us!
which reads very specifically like murder in PvP is encouraged, followed very closely by statements about how hard iris to get a character through CharGen. I was commenting mostly on how your upsell read as self-contradictory.
On the other hand, though, I've read some of your wiki spaces and it seems like a pretty solid game, so there is that.
Ah, I see. That is because PvP, while composed of the letters to make an acronym of Player versus Player, is its one discrete thing which is more than the sum of it's word components. Player versus Player is killing each other for sport. It's even more so when you consider that having social and political goals contrary to a fellow player isn't PvP in any sense, it's just role playing verisimilitude.
What got me in particular was;
which reads very specifically like murder in PvP is encouraged, followed very closely by statements about how hard iris to get a character through CharGen. I was commenting mostly on how your upsell read as self-contradictory.
On the other hand, though, I've read some of your wiki spaces and it seems like a pretty solid game, so there is that.
Hi I joined WoD:Gotham about 4 months ago and this is a completely impartial review.
There are aspects of this game I really do love, mainly the fact that it's a oWoD game. ST are decent though very demanding, in fact overly so. It took me about a week and a half to get a character through the approval process and they completely raped my original character design. Whatever. I just wanted to get into some rp. {Scrubbed} The ST allow any OOC information that the players might pick up as completely organic info IC. {Scrubbed}
YOU PLAY AS YOUR CHARACTER. IF YOU READ SOMETHING IN CHAT YOUR CHARACTER MAGICALLY LEARNS IT AS WELL. IF YOU READ A CHARACTER PROFILE ON THE WIKI, YOUR CHARACTER AUTOMATICALLY LEARNS IT SUPERNATURALLY!
{Scrubbed}
A lot of effort went into this and I can appreciate it, but a very flawed concept.
Last edited by The Glyphstone : 02-15-2013 at 05:59 PM.
{Scrubbed} The ST allow any OOC information that the players might pick up as completely organic info IC. {Scrubbed}
The Staff has provided a Wiki environment for players to post the common information regarding their character. If a player adds information which is venue-sensitive or sensitive in general, then it is taken as common knowledge. A little digging or prodding can reveal the information and therefore, it is a tool for players to have the vaguest understanding of their fellow characters.
For players who wish to post information available to their own venue then there are venue-specific pages for such information. The player has only need but ask the Staff about such amenities.
As meta-gaming is a very serious threat, we do our best as the Staff to combat it but when a player does not follow our precautions mentioned here then policing becomes, in a word, silly. We believe in the accountability of characters and their players. We discuss this in detail here.
Quote:
ST are decent though very demanding, in fact overly so. It took me about a week and a half to get a character through the approval process and they completely raped my original character design.
Our expectations for player characters are plainly stated here. We do not apologize for the potential difficulty of the character generation process. Stringent creation creates more lively and well-crafted characters to better withstand the rigors of a very dangerous Classic World of Darkness Chronicle. No one wants to roleplay with paper cutout character concepts. Players want compelling concepts which work with the setting that they already know and appreciate. That is the purpose of our very demanding and thorough character creation process.
In addition, new players are given a link to a guide which impresses upon the newcomer exactly what we want and what is expected within the Chronicle. The link can be found here. We ensure players are given fair warning before they start down the character creation path.
We do not make apologies and understand this game is not for everyone.
Last edited by Jinxed_Oracle : 02-18-2013 at 07:36 AM.
Clear warning phrases "make no apologies" and "not for everyone."
Lost all interest.
These are merely my personal opinions, being an experienced ST for, what, about 17 years now? Those phrases have become warning signs in my brain for a group or ST that's going to be trouble (also, I just like Mokolé >_>). As follows:
I would ask as a verisimilitude question: "everything must be fought for or stolen but can be claimed the same way from you." Do you live in some kind of crime ridden hateworld where violence is always the answer and nobody ever leans on their infrastructures? I mean, these games are about infrastructures. Any individual who strikes out on their own and tries to fight or steal their way to the top needs to be slapped. Hard. These games are not about being a lone badass marching their way across a violent city. They are about political maneuvering and outwitting your enemies by remaining concealed in your infrastructure. As an experienced ST, I think everyone who wants to run a WoD game (especially Vampire) should not watch anything about supernatural creatures. They should, instead, be forced to watch Deadwood and Ocean's Eleven.
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"Scary magical hoodoo and technology are the same thing; their difference is merely one of cultural context." - Arthur C. Clarke (paraphrased)
I would ask as a verisimilitude question: "everything must be fought for or stolen but can be claimed the same way from you." Do you live in some kind of crime ridden hateworld where violence is always the answer and nobody ever leans on their infrastructures?
I have addressed this issue before. When we talk about "fought" in a roleplaying setting, everyone assumes violence. Yet within fiction or non-fiction an individual can talk about having fought for every ounce of (insert intangible desire here: power, wealth, prestige) he or she has. We use phrases such as "he clawed his way to the top" as metaphors and there is no problem there. But as I said above, Player-versus-Player tends to carry, unfortunately, violent baggage. No Vampire, no Werewolf, no Mage is give anything for free. Even Mortals must deal with this. It has to be fought for, even in our world. The World of Darkness is a world of political intrigues which can destroy a character faster than a walk through the sun, a silver bullet to the brain, or any number of other deadly forms of physical assault.
It's all conflict. It's all fighting. The arena changes. But if it wasn't, then Sun Tzu's words could not be used in the political arena. In the boardroom. In the classroom. His philosophies about combat apply to every aspect of life. More so in the World of Darkness where every night might be a struggle for survival against forces beyond comprehension or hidden foes bent on a character's destruction for a perceived slight.
The games are about conflict. Every organization in the World of Darkness is at war with someone else. Camarilla against Sabbat. Traditions against Technocracy. Garou against the Wyrm. Then they conflict with one another as well. And these conflicts need not be physical and rarely are.
I've been playing at Gotham for over a year now and it really is a unique and well structured game. I'm really glad that I found it -- playing is a lot of fun.
The character proposal and development stages are challenging, but for good reason. It promotes well developed characters that are thought through and not just slapped together. The characters are rich and diverse and make for an interesting RPing world.
The staff and STs are great. They are quick to answer questions, receptive to suggestions, and provide interesting SLs. They challenge players and don't let the game get stagnant. There is also something going on to get involved in.
This is certainly a game for mature players. There is no OOC drama and there are no IC 'cliques'. Players are happy to engage in open gaming with available players.
While it might appear to be an ambitious project, in practice it works well and is worth taking a look at.
You kinda lost me at oWoD, but then you lost me again at emphasizing crossover. Aside from the horror that is the inconsistent metaphysics/metaplot, how in the hell do you think you solved the issue of mutually exclusive and conflicting rules?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilingsworth
Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
Aside from the horror that is the inconsistent metaphysics/metaplot, how in the hell do you think you solved the issue of mutually exclusive and conflicting rules?
Rather than state every policy and modified system we have for cross-over, I will instead link you here. This is a link to our Wiki page. The House Rules section contains many in-depth rulings for cross-over and each venue section also specifically discusses how other Supernaturals may resist or overcome the venue's particular powers.
In addition, our setting also handles the infamous Metaplot as stated here.
The Staff has provided a Wiki environment for players to post the common information regarding their character. If a player adds information which is venue-sensitive or sensitive in general, then it is taken as common knowledge. A little digging or prodding can reveal the information and therefore, it is a tool for players to have the vaguest understanding of their fellow characters.
For players who wish to post information available to their own venue then there are venue-specific pages for such information. The player has only need but ask the Staff about such amenities.
As meta-gaming is a very serious threat, we do our best as the Staff to combat it but when a player does not follow our precautions mentioned here then policing becomes, in a word, silly. We believe in the accountability of characters and their players. We discuss this in detail here.
Our expectations for player characters are plainly stated here. We do not apologize for the potential difficulty of the character generation process. Stringent creation creates more lively and well-crafted characters to better withstand the rigors of a very dangerous Classic World of Darkness Chronicle. No one wants to roleplay with paper cutout character concepts. Players want compelling concepts which work with the setting that they already know and appreciate. That is the purpose of our very demanding and thorough character creation process.
In addition, new players are given a link to a guide which impresses upon the newcomer exactly what we want and what is expected within the Chronicle. The link can be found here. We ensure players are given fair warning before they start down the character creation path.
We do not make apologies and understand this game is not for everyone.
Ah, having a clear reference for what you want and will accept is a huge obviating feature. Excellent; BEfore, you made it seem like there was a nebulous counicl which passed or vetoed all things bsed on some arcane formulae. Having them actually stated and upheld changes that from overly controlling to having standards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiryuu
No slots for Mokolé.
Clear warning phrases "make no apologies" and "not for everyone."
Lost all interest.
These are merely my personal opinions, being an experienced ST for, what, about 17 years now? Those phrases have become warning signs in my brain for a group or ST that's going to be trouble (also, I just like Mokolé >_>). As follows:
I would ask as a verisimilitude question: "everything must be fought for or stolen but can be claimed the same way from you." Do you live in some kind of crime ridden hateworld where violence is always the answer and nobody ever leans on their infrastructures? I mean, these games are about infrastructures. Any individual who strikes out on their own and tries to fight or steal their way to the top needs to be slapped. Hard. These games are not about being a lone badass marching their way across a violent city. They are about political maneuvering and outwitting your enemies by remaining concealed in your infrastructure. As an experienced ST, I think everyone who wants to run a WoD game (especially Vampire) should not watch anything about supernatural creatures. They should, instead, be forced to watch Deadwood and Ocean's Eleven.
The necessity of dice or similar means that the only difference between a fight and an argument is whether you use Weaponry or Persuasion, for example. Sure, you might not die of blood loss from losing an argument badly, but it could directly lead to similarly severe consequences. It's not the best presentation, but the ideas behind it are dynamism, and paranoia, antagonism and conflict as overall themes. There's just very little segue between the levels of abstraction in the presentation.
That said, Aye, those are some red flags on my part. Saying "we don't make excuses" comes across like knowing you're going to do something bad, instead of just being niche.
EDIT: Okay, actually reading the listed links, I think this is a great study in presentation.
Nothing I've seen has been bad. In fact, it is a lot of the stuff that the good STs I've met have said and done. Jinxed_Oracle is simply continuing the tone of the game here, which presents the setting itself as catechist, antagonist and deciever. This may not be the best way to sell the game in general, but it does ensure that the people who do buy the pitch are a good fit.
I wouldn't exactly use the same language structures, but I can see why they do and it's nice to see a secondary presentation of something I'm already familiar with... Especially since it was so different I didn't recognise it as a secondary presentation! So not quite as bad as it seems, though as said, probably not for everyone.
I've been playing in the WoD: Gotham for a few months now, here are my general impressions:
The rules they set down for character creation are there for good reason, it keeps the world alive and interesting. You won't see a bunch of uber-powerful godcharacters coming in for people to twink with and say "Look how cool and sparkly I am." This is a part of my rebuttal to the post about Vampires rolling a frenzy check for lighting up a smoke. It's instinct, There's no just sitting on your butt collecting Experience for doing nothing, you have to be out there playing the game, furthering your character and its goals. The game breathes life into each character, each one with its own secrets, goals and agendas.
There's been a lot of talk about the player vs player on here, and it seems that people think it's like most video games. There are a lot of ways to hurt another players character without physical violence. The goal is to further your own goals, no matter who gets in your way. Are you faced with a stronger foe? Outwit them, think outside the box. No one goes and marches up to say a very VERY old vampire, super experienced Mage, or a Werewolf that's been around the block for a very, very long time and smacks them in the face. You use your brain, when in doubt, "If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck."
The ST's: The chronicle is still very young and flushing itself out, gaining new players and stories constantly. There has been criticism about "Heavy handed ST's" on here, specifically hiryuus post. The ST's are harsh, yet fair with the way each character is treated in the game, just like in real life there are heavy consequences if you do the wrong thing. Would you go up to say the Russian Mafia and say "**** You guys, I'm going to start my own game and take up your rackets?" No. The world will fall on your head and you'll end up tortured, then dead. This is a World of Darkness, no character is invincible, you're in a world of the supernatural and crazy things that will happily kill you to increase their chances of survival. To give an example using the Vampire setting, what would happen if a Neonate starts trouncing around an Elders domain? Things hit the fan and you end up a pile of dust.
Tl;Dr: Actions have consequences.
Overall: I'm sticking with the game, that's all part of the fun. You don't know who's what, or who's who. Are your friends really friends, or are they enemies keeping strict tabs on you and working to make sure you don't get what you're really trying to get?
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Classic World of Darkness Chat-based RPG
