Gunslinger Handbook?

[Kelb_Panthera]

As I continue to ponder the idea of porting the gunslinger to 3.5, I'd like to get a bit better idea of its op-ceiling.

I've seen the handbook here in the playground, but I was wondering if there was another (complete) gunslinger handbook floating around, that I could take a look at.

Can anybody help me out with a link?

[FESage333]

I haven't seen a complete handbook anywhere I have looked (I may have over looked something) at most I found a mini-guide here. Other than that the most "complete" one I found was found here but from your post I take it you have seen that one.


Edit: I also feel I should note that the guide I linked does have problems but some of the information is useful

[grarrrg]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

As I continue to ponder the idea of porting the gunslinger to 3.5, I'd like to get a bit better idea of its op-ceiling.

Tier-wise, it's the same Tier as Fighter (whether you consider PF Fighter Tier 4 or 5 is up to you though...).

In combat, it's much more specialized than a Fighter+Gun would be.
Outside of combat, you have 2 more Skill Points per level, increasing your usefulness.

So Fighter=Gunslinger power level wise.

There is a...certain build...that combines Gunslinger with Sythesist Summoner to achieve ridiculous amounts of damage. But that's still only Tier 3 at best (more by virtue of "Eidolon + Evolution Surge" than anything).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by grarrrg

Tier-wise, it's the same Tier as Fighter (whether you consider PF Fighter Tier 4 or 5 is up to you though...).

In combat, it's much more specialized than a Fighter+Gun would be.
Outside of combat, you have 2 more Skill Points per level, increasing your usefulness.

So Fighter=Gunslinger power level wise.

There is a...certain build...that combines Gunslinger with Sythesist Summoner to achieve ridiculous amounts of damage. But that's still only Tier 3 at best (more by virtue of "Eidolon + Evolution Surge" than anything).

Not to be a D-bag, but that is remarkably unhelpful.

I've already pegged the mean power of the gunslinger (you do have that pretty spot-on), but what I'm trying to find is where his power caps after being full-tilt hyper-optimized.

To elaborate; a fighter is T5, and even after being optimized to hell-and-back he's still only going to make T4 levels of power and versatility at best. Paladin on the otherhand is also T5, but when optimized to the nines reaches the upper end of T3 or even the very bottom of T2 levels of power and versatility. I'm trying to figure out if gunslinger is closer to Fighter or Paladin in this regard, and by exactly what margin.

[RFLS]

Originally Posted by FESage333

I haven't seen a complete handbook anywhere I have looked

*nose goes* Not writing it =P

[Tanuki Tales]

Didn't....Cieyrin (I think) make one?

Edit:

Yup, he did: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...3#post11719683

[grarrrg]

Originally Posted by Troll Brau

Didn't....Cieyrin (I think) make one?

Yup, he did: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...3#post11719683

I think he wanted more of a Finished handbook.
Cieyrins, while thorough, is only about 50-70% finished.
But it is the _most_ complete one I know about.

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

Not to be a D-bag, but that is remarkably unhelpful.

Saying "not to be a d-bag" kind of has the opposite meaning...
And your original question was pretty vague.

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

I've already pegged the mean power of the gunslinger (you do have that pretty spot-on), but what I'm trying to find is where his power caps after being full-tilt hyper-optimized.
...Paladin on the otherhand is also T5, but when optimized to the nines reaches the upper end of T3 or even the very bottom of T2 levels of power and versatility.

Assuming we are talking Straight PF here, and no 3.5, I don't think the Paladin quite reaches low T2 or High T3. He's still mainly a "fighting" class, and only gets 4th level spells at best.

But back to the main topic:
Assuming a Single Class Gunslinger, I'd say it has the same ceiling as the Fighter, T4
You have NO spells, and all you can really do is Shoot things.
4 Skills/Level with no reason to boost INT means you aren't going to be Skill-Monkey-ing, although Mysterious Stranger can make a decent Party-Face in a pinch, but even then, it has no real Bonuses to the Diplo-skills outside of it being CHA-dependent.

In-combat it will be good, with a variety of ways to shoot things.
Through various Deeds it can pile all of it's Shots into 'one big Shot'
It can inflict Bleed damage based on your DEX mod, OR 1/round STR, DEX, or CON bleed.
It has very limited Debuffing ability.
It gets a DEX-based Death Attack.

Final verdict: VERY Firearm-Combat specialized, and not much use outside of combat. T4 at best.


If you take Muticlassing into consideration, then it possibly becomes MUCH better, as it is a VERY dippable class, 5 level of most Archetypes gets you DEX to Damage, and Mysterious Stranger is solid with just 1 level.
But, with Multiclassing, your Tier Limit is potentially more based on your NON-Gunslinger class than anything.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by grarrrg

I think he wanted more of a Finished handbook.
Cieyrins, while thorough, is only about 50-70% finished.
But it is the _most_ complete one I know about.



Saying "not to be a d-bag" kind of has the opposite meaning...
And your original question was pretty vague.



Assuming we are talking Straight PF here, and no 3.5, I don't think the Paladin quite reaches low T2 or High T3. He's still mainly a "fighting" class, and only gets 4th level spells at best.

But back to the main topic:
Assuming a Single Class Gunslinger, I'd say it has the same ceiling as the Fighter, T4
You have NO spells, and all you can really do is Shoot things.
4 Skills/Level with no reason to boost INT means you aren't going to be Skill-Monkey-ing, although Mysterious Stranger can make a decent Party-Face in a pinch, but even then, it has no real Bonuses to the Diplo-skills outside of it being CHA-dependent.

In-combat it will be good, with a variety of ways to shoot things.
Through various Deeds it can pile all of it's Shots into 'one big Shot'
It can inflict Bleed damage based on your DEX mod, OR 1/round STR, DEX, or CON bleed.
It has very limited Debuffing ability.
It gets a DEX-based Death Attack.

Final verdict: VERY Firearm-Combat specialized, and not much use outside of combat. T4 at best.


If you take Muticlassing into consideration, then it possibly becomes MUCH better, as it is a VERY dippable class, 5 level of most Archetypes gets you DEX to Damage, and Mysterious Stranger is solid with just 1 level.
But, with Multiclassing, your Tier Limit is potentially more based on your NON-Gunslinger class than anything.

Sorry about that. I really shouldn't post when I've had that little sleep.

I didn't think my OP was that unclear. I said that I was considering porting gunslinger to 3.5 and that I wanted to find its op-ceiling. What would op-ceiling mean other than the highest level of power the class can achieve with maximum optimization?

My comments about the fighter and paladin were for the 3.5 versions. I know fairly little about the PF versions of either.


I'm beggining to get the impression that there isn't a complete handbook for the class then?

Damn. That's going to mean a lot of extra work before I make my decision. Oh well. Thanks everybody.