[PF] Whip or Spiked Chain for tripping

[Hybrid Monkey D]

Nitty-gritty: Playing a 3/4 BAB class, would it be better to trip using a whip or a spiked chain ruled to have reach?


So, we recently started a Pathfinder game were all PCs began as 0th level goblins. At the end of the first session, I am only 30 experience away from gaining my first class level, and I plan on taking bard. Without any other players taking up the mantle of arcane caster, I've taken it upon myself to handle battlefield control. As part of this, my original intent was to pick up the Improved Trip feats alongside Improved Whip Mastery so I could threaten everyone out to 15 feet and attempt a trip on anyone that provokes. This all sounds fine, until I think about how the build so far eats up 5 of my feats, and can't be completed until level 7. So, on one hand, this build is slow to start and expensive to implement, but with 15 feet of tripping power and the arcane duelist archetype, not even casters would be safe from my tripping fury.

And then, in the first session, my DM pulled out a spiked chain wielding halfling as a part of a fairly large group of enemies that we eventually defeated. It must have been a holdover from all those years of 3.5, but can you believe it, the damned thing had reach. After combat, we talked to him about the deviation from the CRB's entry, and he declared that for this campaign, he's going to give all spiked chains the same style of reach that 3.5 had. If I chose to start using spiked chains instead of a whip, I'd be able to drop Weapon Focus (Whip)>Whip Mastery>Improved Whip Mastery and just get Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) instead, meaning I could fit feats like Lingering Performance into my build sooner, but I'd lose out on that amazing 15 feet.

I'm sort of torn on which path to go down. What do you guys think?

[herrhauptmann]

If they have reach, take the spiked chain.
10ft reach isn't as good as 15 ft.
But the whip doesn't normally allow melee aoos, and it sucks waiting until bab=5 to do so. Especially since you'll also spend your first few levels taking an AOO every time you attack while in melee.

Why are you a 3/4 bab class? Why not multiclass into fighter a little? You'll get a bab boost, and more feats (which you sorely need).

Beyond that, check out the 3.5 jack b quick. Maybe you can find some similar things in pathfinder. http://community.wizards.com/go/thre..._Jack_B._Quick
or chain gatling tripper http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...Gun34;_Tripper

[Hybrid Monkey D]

Well, I want to go straight bard, but I didn't quite know what to do with my character outside of being something akin to a goblin drill instructor. Although my. focus is more on the the bardic performance feature, i'd rather not hinder my spellcasting.

[herrhauptmann]

Sounds like you're trying to do a little too much with one character...
What's the rest of the party doing?

[grarrrg]

Originally Posted by Hybrid Monkey D

Improved Whip Mastery so I could threaten everyone out to 15 feet

Nope.
Improved Whip Mastery threatens "the area of your natural reach plus 5 feet".
Natural Reach for Small/Medium races is 5ft.
So you'd still only threaten 10ft. the same as any other Reach weapon.
Your 'normal' attacks would still reach 15ft.

Overall, go with the Spiked Chain as long as it's Reach. Much less hassle, similar bonuses.

[Hybrid Monkey D]

One oracle, going healer. One antipaladin, one ninja, one alchemist that I think wants to go doctor jekyll and mister hyde.

[herrhauptmann]

Originally Posted by Hybrid Monkey D

One oracle, going healer. One antipaladin, one ninja, one alchemist that I think wants to go doctor jekyll and mister hyde.

Anti-paladin. So... LE Paladin? CE Paladin? Fallen paladin/blackguard?

Anyway.
1)A warriors battlefield control is much weaker than the battlefield control of a wizard. Partly because you gotta be in the middle of it while the wizard is safely off to the side. And yours will be worse still, because you have fewer feats and lower BAB. The right selection of bard spells might make up the difference, but I'm not sure.

2)Remember as a small race, your tripping/disarming is going to be at a disadvantage over the hordes of human adventurers that regularly attack your warren/cave. This will get worse as you find yourself fighting higher level or higher CR creatures. Especially once they start getting to be size large, or having multiple legs. At that point, your tripping will be worse than useless.

3)You might be able to score an enlarge person or something, but from what I remember of my halfling gish, going from small to medium is actually a penalty. I wasn't really getting a higher to-hit, or dealing appreciably higher damage. At teh same time, my AC was lower, so I was getting hit more. So enlarge person probably won't help you trip your enemies.

4)So, if you're going for a trip/disarm build, the sooner the feat combo is complete, the better. That means you'll spend less time with an incomplete combo, and more time actually using your combo before enemy selection invalidates your combo completely.

5)Once you can't use your combo regularly, how will you contribute? You gotta ask yourself that now.
Delivering lots of aid another actions or flanking to your allies is a good way to do it. But once your enemies realize that killing you stops most/all flanking, you're going to be the number 1 target. The right equipment/spells should help protect you in that case.

6)Another option you'll have, will be to pile status effects on people. I don't know how easily you can do it in PF, but in 3.5, there were a lot of options you could get just with your weapons alone.
If each hit on an enemy forced them to make a will/fort/ref save vs stun, daze, stat damage, whatever, then you'll find yourself able to contribute even if you're using a whip for 1d3+2 damage. You just have to find ways to up your number of attacks. Which is the basis for the 'weapon effects' link in my signature.
To that end, I recommend a lifedrinker custom weapon (38k), with some form of deathward. Permanent/extended spell, armor property...

[jmelesky]

Originally Posted by herrhauptmann

Anti-paladin. So... LE Paladin? CE Paladin? Fallen paladin/blackguard?

I'm going to go ahead and assume he meant antipaladin.

[Dresler]

I like spiked chain for tripping, especially the Living Spiked Chain, +2 trip checks. Although I play 3.5 haven't played PF yet. Playing a unarmored swordsage with 2 lvls monk dip (DM ruled that SS wis to AC and monk wis to AC stack when not wearing armor).

Feats: Exotic Weapons, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, have some decent strength, and equipment for tripping, overall my trip check is 14 and 18 if I use a tripping maneuver from sword sage (about to turn lvl 12). Although at 12 I get to quicken truestrike 3/day since my race has truestrike and I took Magic in the blood for 3/day, can't wait to be quickening it.

I didn't like the whip mostly because of the in melee negatives it has, although no idea if you can get rid of those and make whips better, pretty new to D&D in general.

[Ravens_cry]

Originally Posted by grarrrg

Nope.
Improved Whip Mastery threatens "the area of your natural reach plus 5 feet".
Natural Reach for Small/Medium races is 5ft.
So you'd still only threaten 10ft. the same as any other Reach weapon.
Your 'normal' attacks would still reach 15ft.

Overall, go with the Spiked Chain as long as it's Reach. Much less hassle, similar bonuses.

Except, unlike a normal reach weapon, it threatens at 5 feet as well.
Still, Spiked Chain 3.5 sounds superior.