New theory about final two gates (there be spoilers here)

[SteveDJ]

I've got a new theory about the fate of the final two gates. At least, I think it is a new theory -- given the number of other threads in this forum, some with 1000s of posts, I suppose it is possible this has been discussed before ... and if so, just point me to said old thread/post and I apologize.

But expecting that this is indeed new - here goes...

(not sure if spoiler wrapping is needed inside a thread labelled spoilers, but better safe than sorry)

Spoiler

It has been discussed recently in another thread that Xykon basically has the exact (and correct) cooridinates to this gate in the desert. So, while our OotS party is still trying to find it, perhaps Xykon is already there?

But my real theory here is -- perhaps at this gate, Xykon actually WINS! Supposing that our OotS party is successfully ... repelled (destroyed/killed just wouldn't work) ... and Xykon gains control of the gate.

Perhaps Xykon/Redcloak even proceed with their spells or whatnot, and mostly gain control of the Snarl. What X/R don't know is that the final gate is what is really holding back the Snarl, while X/R think it is their own spells that are 'controlling' the Snarl. But suffice it to say that the Snarl begins doing their bidding. Things look grim for the realm...

But with one gate left, the OotS decide to go find it, and use their own spells with that gate (and access to the Snarl) to try to undo what Xykon/Redcloak have started.

I think it would definitely be an interesting twist to the story... having the OotS at the final gate - but this time instead of fighting off Xykon (again), they are actually trying to invoke some of the same stuff that they've been trying to stop Xykon from doing before... :)

[Dr.Epic]

Why would any single Gate work differently? We've yet to see any such evidence to that. Also, it's pretty anti-climatic for Xykon to take that Gate and the Order doesn't fight the Big Bad at the finale. Not to mention Red Cloaks pretty much gonna kill Xykon once he gets what he wants. Again, not very climatic or rewarding to see the Big Bad killed off in that way. Also, what spells could the Order have that would control the Snarl? Dorukan and Lirian were epic level and had to do years of research before they figured out a way.

[SteveDJ]

Ah, but who IS the big bad? We all thought it was Xykon, but now is it really Redcloak instead?

Perhaps Xykon wins the gate, to the point that even Redcloak is denied access. Then as Xykon begins to unleash mayhem on the realm, Redcloak teams up with OotS to try to stop Xykon.

So, there'd still be a climactic battle at the last gate, as Redcloak tries to turn on his new 'friends' and/or they discover his true motives...

Edit: So, the gates wouldn't work any differently - just Redcloak tricking the OotS into thinking this way...

[Thessie]

I really think its a pretty good idea. It would be nice for things to get seriously bad before they get better, if you know what I mean.

Essentially, I would like to see everything go wrong before the end of everything.

[suzaliscious]

No. This is not what will happen.

You seem to be forgetting Redcloak's revelation to Tsukiko - or to Right-Eye in Start of Darkness.

The Ritual does not, in fact, control the Snarl.

[Xelbiuj]

What I think is going to happen . . .

Spoiler

Durkon will die in this battle. Why? Because hes not supposed to die. -Malack
This gate will get destroyed and they'll head north, to Kraagor's gate which will be near Durkon's homeland. This fulfills the Oracle's prophecy.
He'll get raised and they'll go round 4? 5? With Xykon and the snarl will be released, spelling ruin for the dwarfs, fulfilling Odin's prophecy.
Or the snarl wont be released nor the ritual completed and the gate will get destroyed. Revealing new information about the truth of the rifts, and they end the campaign in the astral plane, to finish off Xykon.

[Winter]

Originally Posted by SteveDJ

Ah, but who IS the big bad? We all thought it was Xykon, but now is it really Redcloak instead?

I suggest you click on the "Shop" button to your left and proceed with ordering Start of Darkness.

[ti'esar]

Originally Posted by Winter

I suggest you click on the "Shop" button to your left and proceed with ordering Start of Darkness.

I think there's actually a legitimate argument to be made that Xykon and Redcloak are a "dual" Big Bad, with neither one functioning as effectively (both in- and out-of-universe) on their own, SoD or not.

But that said, this theory is ruled out by one simple fact: the Ritual does not control the Snarl.

[fergo]

Originally Posted by ti'esar

I think there's actually a legitimate argument to be made that Xykon and Redcloak are a "dual" Big Bad, with neither one functioning as effectively (both in- and out-of-universe) on their own, SoD or not.

Arguably, Xykon is the Big Bad not just to the Order, but to Redcloak as well. I think on a personal level... (minor SoD spoilers)

Spoiler

Redcloak has been more wronged by Xykon than anyone.

That is in terms of one-on-one individual tragedy, not generic mass-slaughter or random murder, which Xykon does quite well.

.

So when we're talking about the final showdown, I think the fight between the two will be just as important as whatever the Order are up to.

Although for what it's worth, I still think the Order will be central to the overall endgame, for dramatic reasons if nothing else.

[Winter]

Originally Posted by ti'esar

I think there's actually a legitimate argument to be made that Xykon and Redcloak are a "dual" Big Bad, with neither one functioning as effectively (both in- and out-of-universe) on their own, SoD or not.

In the very end, I more think that Redcloak is only a catalyst to make Xykon worse than he is. Redcloak gives Xykon direction, an aim and method. They are not working as "dual big bad", Redcloak is part of what makes the the Big Bad as bad as he is.
Without Redcloak, Xykon* would be content doing medium scale evilness by burning a town here or there or toppling over a country, then vanish after a few years. Redcloak is what blows this to multiverse shattering proportions, but he still stands in the shadow of Xykon.

(* Yes... without Redcloak, Xykon would have died of age long ago ;))

[fergo]

Originally Posted by Winter

In the very end, I more think that Redcloak is only a catalyst to make Xykon worse than he is. Redcloak gives Xykon direction, an aim and method. They are not working as "dual big bad", Redcloak is part of what makes the the Big Bad as bad as he is.
Without Redcloak, Xykon* would be content doing medium scale evilness by burning a town here or there or toppling over a country, then vanish after a few years. Redcloak is what blows this to multiverse shattering proportions, but he still stands in the shadow of Xykon.

(* Yes... without Redcloak, Xykon would have died of age long ago ;))

But surely Xykon has shaped Redcloak just as much, if not more.

Sure, on an obvious level, Xykon has obviously been made much, much worse because of Redcloak. But he was a pretty straight-forward character anyways. Redcloak started out complex, has been twisted 360 degrees by Xykon... and then back again... and then again.

Redcloak has been twisted beyond recognition by Xykon just as much as Xykon has been by Redcloak.

That's what I think, anyways, but to be fair I am a massive Redcloak fanboy

[Dr.Epic]

Originally Posted by SteveDJ

Ah, but who IS the big bad?

The skeleton guy. Not the green guy.

[quote]We all thought it was Xykon, but now is it really Redcloak instead?]/QUOTE]

No, it's really not. And you even go on to deny this in your next comment.

Perhaps Xykon wins the gate, to the point that even Redcloak is denied access.

How? Xykon doesn't even know (spoiler from SoD)...

Spoiler

it's impossible to control the Snarl and Redcloak's true goal is just moving the rifts.

Xykon knows next to knowing about the ritual compared to Redcloak who's literally gotten word of god info about the Gates and Snarl. I doubt Xykon could figure out how to control it.

Then as Xykon begins to unleash mayhem on the realm, Redcloak teams up with OotS to try to stop Xykon.

So, there'd still be a climactic battle at the last gate, as Redcloak tries to turn on his new 'friends' and/or they discover his true motives...

I doubt the Order would be dumb enough to fall for that.

[RebelRogue]

Originally Posted by fergo

Sure, on an obvious level, Xykon has obviously been made much, much worse because of Redcloak. But he was a pretty straight-forward character anyways. Redcloak started out complex, has been twisted 360 degrees by Xykon... and then back again... and then again.

(<- clickable)

[fergo]

Originally Posted by RebelRogue

(<- clickable)

[sims796]

No offense, but I must ask; why must these be in spoilers? Other than the actual SoD spoilers in this thread, why must the rest of it be so? This stuff never even happened, and it's not like Rich gets his ideas for future comics from the threads anyway.

Is it a rule, or just courtesy? I ask because I've seen people do this in other threads, always confused me.

[Winter]

Originally Posted by fergo

But surely Xykon has shaped Redcloak just as much, if not more.

Yes, of course. Xykon is the Big Bad and he did not only shape Redcloak, he broke him.

Spoiler

This is why Right-Eye had to die in the end: Xykon had moved between the two brothers and alienated them from each other but Right-Eye would not break. Xykon disposed of him in the most effective way in regard to breaking Redcloak for good - by making him kill his own brother AND admit he's a coward afterwards.

No matter if Redcloak ever betrays Xykon in the end, or even might kill him. He will never recover from that.

[fergo]

Originally Posted by Winter

No matter if Redcloak ever betrays Xykon in the end, or even might kill him. He will never recover from that.

Although I agree with everything else you say...

No, wait. I agree with this as well. I'm sure you're right.

I just wish it wasn't so . Poor ol' Reddie.

Originally Posted by RebelRogue

(<- clickable)

Actually, can I retroactively change what I meant to say to Redcloak being really dizzy?

[SteveDJ]

I had forgotten about the fact that Redcload's ritual doesn't control the Snarl... but maybe Xykon is just putting on an act, and perhaps he is on to Redcloak all along? ...and maybe he has is own ritual planned in the end...? (it's all speculation anyway, right? )

Perhaps I tried to give too much 'specific example' in my theory -- I was really just trying to suggest the idea that maybe Xykon 'gets' this gate, and the OotS has to rush off to the last gate to 'save the day'?

Originally Posted by sims796

No offense, but I must ask; why must these be in spoilers? Other than the actual SoD spoilers in this thread, why must the rest of it be so? This stuff never even happened, and it's not like Rich gets his ideas for future comics from the threads anyway.

Is it a rule, or just courtesy? I ask because I've seen people do this in other threads, always confused me.

To this - I seem to recall a post quite some time ago, I thought by The Giant himself, saying all predictions had to be in spoilers. But maybe that policy has changed...?

[Dr.Epic]

Originally Posted by sims796

No offense, but I must ask; why must these be in spoilers? Other than the actual SoD spoilers in this thread, why must the rest of it be so? This stuff never even happened, and it's not like Rich gets his ideas for future comics from the threads anyway.

Unless it happened in the future and these people are psychic.

[FujinAkari]

Originally Posted by SteveDJ

To this - I seem to recall a post quite some time ago, I thought by The Giant himself, saying all predictions had to be in spoilers. But maybe that policy has changed...?

It did... like 7 years ago... lol

[sims796]

Originally Posted by Dr.Epic

Unless it happened in the future and these people are psychic.

Which...would then make it spoilers? Blew my mind.

[Dr.Epic]

Originally Posted by sims796

Blew my mind.

I tend to do that. Though not so often with words. Mostly with death beams.