Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

[BRC]

Hey, the Orks have freedom to do whatever they want! Provided it's some combination of Fightin' 'an Lootin'

But really, what Ork would want to do anything else

[Tychris1]

Orks are pretty free form when you think about it. Really like Fire? Bam, your a Burna Boy; Go light some 'umies up. Like going fast? How would you like your speed? In jetpack, car, helicopter, or bike form? Hell, you want to beat the tar out of little things? Became a Runetherd. Orks are just based around what an Ork wants to do, and how he can best apply it to beating the crap out of other people (Which is something all Orks want to do, so hey, living the dream right?).

The Imperium's got nothing on the Greenskins .

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Originally Posted by Trixie

No, we're saying their society is oppressive because the very birth places you behind the bars of inescapable prison. For life.

And then inmates of it are given pulse rifles and are told to drag as many others as they can inside. For their good, of course.

Yeah, that's not, like, warped and oppressive at all, after all, something that can squick even IG officers accustomed to seeing worst things Galaxy has to offer must be good, no?

Tau Caste is not a purely social construct as it would be in us humans, it has a basis in their biology. Imagine a human bemoaning the fact that he can't be a cat or a dog, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about here.

Wait, are we comparing Tau society to the real world or the rest of Warhammer 40,000 universe? The 40k universe where there is only war. The 40k universe in which without a dedicated military you can't dream of having a functioning society.

Yay, we're all free to do whatever we want! Oh no, Orks are attacking! Where are our soldiers? We don't have any, nobody wants to fight lol. Oh no, we're all dead.

[Tehnar]

Originally Posted by Tychris1

Orks are pretty free form when you think about it. Really like Fire? Bam, your a Burna Boy; Go light some 'umies up. Like going fast? How would you like your speed? In jetpack, car, helicopter, or bike form? Hell, you want to beat the tar out of little things? Became a Runetherd. Orks are just based around what an Ork wants to do, and how he can best apply it to beating the crap out of other people (Which is something all Orks want to do, so hey, living the dream right?).

The Imperium's got nothing on the Greenskins .

Its even got significant upward mobility as well. Unsatisfied with your lot? If you are choppy enough you can even get to be a warboss. It doesn't matter where and how you spawned (unless you are a gretchin, but hey its better then being a snotty).

[Zorg]

Even the grots have their rebellions now and then

-

I think people are underrepresenting the Imperium, or at least overrepresenting the bad parts. Hiveworlds and life in the priesthood can suck, but thay are statistical minorities. Hives are the Adeptus Terra's version of Forge Worlds, so are planets dedicated to industry and thus everyone there works in the factory cities or to support them.
Most sources depicting "civilised" worlds (ie fairly anologous to modern Earth) show a world which whilst lacking in what we would consider basic freedoms such as democracy there is a great degree of self-determination (and many worlds do have elected leaders).

The concept of being born into a job in the Imperium is generally on aplicable to members of the priesthood or Mechanicus. There you have people who have hereditary roles as scribes for the Administratum or whathaveyou, but for many it's just a job. Ravenor has a bit where they infiltrate an administratum facility and there are people who are basically there as office workers. It's their day job, and it's not a great job but who here hasn't had a dreary job they hated? Ok, maybe it doesn't make your head spontaneously rupture, but still...

Obviously there are extremes which are more interesting to explore from a writer's perspective, but the Imperium has as much social mobility as our own world when taken as a whole - not just the 1st world - it seems less because the scale is so much bigger.


As an aside Space Marine, though no longer 100% canon, has a discussion on joining the guard. The main character lives on Necromunda, and is hoping to get into the PDF, so then he might get drafted for the guard and get off world. As you can guess from the title something else happens, but unless you're Cadian or a Krieger there's no guarantee you'll get into the guard - your planet might only be drafted once every hundred years for instance or be a planet that doesn't produce regiments for some reason (vital manufacturing / mining or somesuch).

Related thought: the 13th Black Crusade would have been dealt with a lot easier if they hadn't shipped approximately eleventy bajillion dudes off of Cadia across the galaxy. Hell, given how often Cadians turn up they probably could have kept them all there and launched a successful crusade into the eye

[Squark]

A case can be even made that the Orks are the only actually sane species in WH40k (In an insane universe, the only true insanity is insisting on sanity. Ergo, the Orks, who just enjoy fighting for the sake of fighting, are the only people with a sane approach to warfare in the year 40000)

So, yeah. Clearly Orks are the true protagonists in the 40k universe.

[Zorg]

Well I've long said that they should have called Imperial Armour 8 "Armour of Gork (or possibly Mork) vol 1".

I actually find Orks one of the best alien races when done well - the right nuance of their constant need for conflict balanced with a thriving society based around that same driving force. An interesting culture and one in many ways foreign but in many ways similar to our own.
Sadly they are too often portrayed as mindless brutes or dumb cardboard bad guys.

[GolemsVoice]

Related thought: the 13th Black Crusade would have been dealt with a lot easier if they hadn't shipped approximately eleventy bajillion dudes off of Cadia across the galaxy. Hell, given how often Cadians turn up they probably could have kept them all there and launched a successful crusade into the eye

I wondered that, too. I mean, I know that the Cadians have become something like the Ultramarines of the Guard, and that they are really tough even on basic troop level, so you'd want them around, but really? Cadia, the most defended place aside from Holy Terra, where they make a point of making everything both a fortress and a weapon, a world that is constantly threatened by literal hell? Let's draw some soldiers from there!

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I think it's just not feasible to keep every Cadian Regiment on Cadia, all the time. Black Crusades are supposed to be rare events, no? Based on how badass Cadian soldiers are, they are probably sorely needed elsewhere, probably against Orks. Of course when a Black Crusade comes down they'll call as many dudes as possible but they can't be waiting on Cadia 100 years a century.

[Acanous]

Isn't it current canon that Cadia is contested by Chaos?
(Added alliterative appeal ho!)
Like, don't they have something around half the planet as a beachhead?

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I don't know what the timeline is, honestly. I would assume that once Chaos got their foothold, "exports" out of Cadia would slow down or stop. But before that, there would be many regiments sent away who stayed away. Based on what I read, a regiment that survives their current campaign will just keep moving to where they're needed. Maybe all those Cadian regiments currently off Cadia were sent before the 13th Black Crusade?

Or someone lost the paperwork. Either one makes sense.

[GolemsVoice]

I think during the 13th Black Crusada chaos HAD a huge foothold, but they've been driven off since. I don't think the Imperium would allow any Chaos power to establish itself on Cadia as long as a single soldier within the Imperium draws breath. Not to mention that a foothold would likely draw Chaos like nothing else.

Lexicanum however says that you're right, they have a major foothold, but no reinforcements from space, and since, at least out of game, the 13th BC is a few years past already, they might have been driven off since.

Chaos "won" the campaign, though, because,a s far as I remember, they captured a lot of the surrounding planets.

[Carry2]

Originally Posted by Zorg

I actually find Orks one of the best alien races when done well - the right nuance of their constant need for conflict balanced with a thriving society based around that same driving force. An interesting culture and one in many ways foreign but in many ways similar to our own.
Sadly they are too often portrayed as mindless brutes or dumb cardboard bad guys.

My problem is more with the whole "Yes, Ork Virginia, there is moar dakka, and you have the right to be-leeeeef" free pass they get when it comes to explaining 'most everything they do. Their technology is ramshackle and hammered together by cretins with rocks? The Waaagh does it! Their base ecology would be rapidly displaced by native competitors that don't suffer the calory burden of gestating more orks? The Waaagh does it! A race of latent psykers is somehow immune to the ravages of daemon infestation? The Waaagh does it!

Sure, on a cultural level you can make a reasonable argument that orks are happier than any other species in the setting, given that they have no instinct for self-preservation and luurv a good scrap. Of course, they die like flies, typically at the hands of other orks, but they are happy right up to the moment they are dead.

And it seems to meeee, that you lived your life, like a candle on the wiiind...

[Zorg]

Well I'm from the old-school era when Orks actually had good, if crude looking, technology (old pictures include one of a bunch of Meks looking at blueprints for a gargant); there were female orks before all this badgerbadgerbadger mushroom nonesense; and Gork (or possibly Mork) kept chaos away by running around the warp punching it in the face - so my view is slanted somewhat.

And the last Ork codex has a blurb that does feature a daemon coming out of a weirdboyz 'ead whilst in the warp. I see their protection as the same as the Sororitas or, perhaps as a closer analogue, the Harlequins. Neither group is otherwise protected, but displays what could be seen as latent psychic abilities (Acts of Faith) or are actually psykers with no outside protection save their god (Harlies).

[Carry2]

Originally Posted by Zorg

Well I'm from the old-school era when Orks actually had good, if crude looking, technology (old pictures include one of a bunch of Meks looking at blueprints for a gargant); there were female orks before all this badgerbadgerbadger mushroom nonesense; and Gork (or possibly Mork) kept chaos away by running around the warp punching it in the face - so my view is slanted somewhat.

Oh. ...Well, that does sound a lot more reasonable.

Your ideas intrigue me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

And the last Ork codex has a blurb that does feature a daemon coming out of a weirdboyz 'ead whilst in the warp. I see their protection as the same as the Sororitas or, perhaps as a closer analogue, the Harlequins. Neither group is otherwise protected, but displays what could be seen as latent psychic abilities (Acts of Faith) or are actually psykers with no outside protection save their god (Harlies).

I always kind of got the impression that anyone with psyker potential needed some kind of outstanding self-discipline (like the Eldar, or soul-bound astropaths,) to avoid daemon infestation. But, well, if you have Orks actually building technology because they genuinely understand it, then they don't need to all be psykers.

Though, in that case, it's hard to see how they wouldn't rapidly outstrip the imperium in the tech arms race. Hmm.

[BRC]

Originally Posted by Zorg

Well I'm from the old-school era when Orks actually had good, if crude looking, technology (old pictures include one of a bunch of Meks looking at blueprints for a gargant); there were female orks before all this badgerbadgerbadger mushroom nonesense; and Gork (or possibly Mork) kept chaos away by running around the warp punching it in the face - so my view is slanted somewhat.

This is my view of how it works, and no amount of Canonical evidence will convince me otherwise.

[Zorg]

Originally Posted by Carry2

Oh. ...Well, that does sound a lot more reasonable.

Your ideas intrigue me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

It's called Rogue Trader

I always kind of got the impression that anyone with psyker potential needed some kind of outstanding self-discipline (like the Eldar, or soul-bound astropaths,) to avoid daemon infestation. But, well, if you have Orks actually building technology because they genuinely understand it, then they don't need to all be psykers.

Yes and no - a non-psyker is at zero risk of posession or triggering an incursion. A psyker, even a latent one, is at risk, but this only becomes a real likelyhood when they start using their powers.
It's somewhat like if you have a tap in your sink. It might spontaneously come off and spray water everywhere, but it's more likely to do that if you keep using it a lot and have it under greater pressure than it was designed to withstand.
Eldar are only protected from the warp as they channel their powers through their wraithbone runes, which act as filters/buffers, otherwise they are vulnerable like everyone else (perhaps moreso). They are generally stronger so can resist better, but the vulnerability is there.

There's nothing psychic about a mekboyz understanding, it's implied to be more genetic engineering from the old ones than anything psychic.

Though, in that case, it's hard to see how they wouldn't rapidly outstrip the imperium in the tech arms race. Hmm.

I don't see why - Orks are masters at teleportation and force field manipulation, true, but that doesn't mean they'll understand how to build plasma weaponry.

[shadow_archmagi]

Originally Posted by Carry2

Though, in that case, it's hard to see how they wouldn't rapidly outstrip the imperium in the tech arms race. Hmm.

The Ork's understanding is largely genetic, which means that each generation doesn't learn so much as gradually gains access to increasing amounts of premade information (thus why pretty much all Orks have certain types of vehicles and tech, despite being galaxy-wide.)

For example, Flash Gitz represent the pinnacle of Shoota technology. They understand it as much as anyone ever will, and they won't pass on their knowledge to the next generation because the next generation will simply grow up to be Flash Gitz. In 80k, the Orks will not have bigger and flashier guns, except by looting Tau weapons.

Also, it is possible to avoid warp possession through faith and willpower, and the Ork's faith in Gork and Mork is unshakeable.

It's also worth noting that the Eldar only have to be super careful because there's a chaos god waiting specifically for them, who has a unique bond with them. Pre-Slaanesh, they were a race of latent psykers that didn't live in constant fear of daemonic possession.

[lord_khaine]

It's also worth noting that the Eldar only have to be super careful because there's a chaos god waiting specifically for them, who has a unique bond with them. Pre-Slaanesh, they were a race of latent psykers that didn't live in constant fear of daemonic possession.

They were a race of psykers before the fall as well, seing as it were their seers who saved the race by predicting the fall and warning enough people about it.

[shadow_archmagi]

Originally Posted by lord_khaine

They were a race of psykers before the fall as well, seing as it were their seers who saved the race by predicting the fall and warning enough people about it.

Oh, yeah. I meant that the vast majority of Eldar both before and after the fall were, to some degree, psychic. They're a very psychic race, and it's only in recent years that they've had to really work to protect themselves.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi

They're a very psychic race, and it's only in recent years that they've had to really work to protect themselves.

Protect themselves from what? Slaanesh? As long as they've got a shiny rock on their person when they die, they're all good. Spirit Stones do all the work, the rest is just trying not to party too hard.

[Wraith]

Originally Posted by Carry2

A race of latent psykers is somehow immune to the ravages of daemon infestation? The Waaagh does it!

It's implied that this is because Orks don't have souls.

At least, not individually - an Ork horde has a soul, made up of the tiny little parts brought together by the Orks within it, and this manifests via the Weirdboy. This is why Weirdboys are more powerful in bigger Waaaghs (they have a 'bigger' and thus more powerful soul) and why only they explode when things go wrong.

I've heard the theory that this is because they are artificial lifeforms created by the Old Ones. Similar to the Tau, who are also blanks and VERY strongly implied to be the result of Eldar tinkering. Unlike the Tau, they were created as a 'warrior race and as such were given a few Psykers as an in-built weapon, of sorts.
This is an interesting theory but it struggles to explain the Eldar, who were also created by the Old Ones and are exclusively psykers. You could just say that the twos races were just designed that way, but that leaves me with the unfortunate conclusion that souls are not inherently valuable, if they can be given or taken away on such scale, and that contradicts a large portion of the canon regarding Psykers, the Fall, the appetites of the Chaos Gods and the Imperium.

[Squark]

On the topic of Demonic Posession of Orks: I was under the impression that Orks (and wierdboys) are on occasion possessed by Demons, but their behavior seldom changes, because all you've done is given the ork the ability to argue with himself.

[Tiki Snakes]

Originally Posted by Zorg

Well I'm from the old-school era when Orks actually had good, if crude looking, technology (old pictures include one of a bunch of Meks looking at blueprints for a gargant); there were female orks before all this badgerbadgerbadger mushroom nonesense; and Gork (or possibly Mork) kept chaos away by running around the warp punching it in the face - so my view is slanted somewhat.

I'm pretty hazy on the Orks even compared to other factions, but none of this sounds remotely controversial. I mean, what else would Gork and Mork be doing?

Also, take the AK47. It is such a simple, efficient and durable design that you can put it back together with some of the bits the wrong way round and it will continue to work just fine, apparently. I could see the imperium taking a look at it and claiming it couldn't possibly work. They probably wouldn't, but I could imagine it. I figure that Ork tech is this, applied to everything and turned up to 11.

It almost all works in legitimate, scientific ways. It's ramshackle and horrendously unsafe, but also simple enough that if it gets filled with mud blood and bones, they just need to shake the crud out of it and it'll go back to working just fine. It's completely mechanical, without so much as a machine spirit and most of it is bodged together with old rope like the contestants of an episode of Scrapheap Challenge developed murderous insanity.

But it's not innately powered by Waagh. Mostly.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Wraith

I've heard the theory that this is because they are artificial lifeforms created by the Old Ones. Similar to the Tau, who are also blanks and VERY strongly implied to be the result of Eldar tinkering. Unlike the Tau, they were created as a 'warrior race and as such were given a few Psykers as an in-built weapon, of sorts.

The Orks - or, the Krork - were a genetically engineered race developed by the Old Ones to fight the C'Tan, specifically, Nightbringer. As Orks love to fight and are immune to 'the fear of death'.

Similarly, the Eldar were created to fight the Necrons, being heavily psychic, that didn't work out too well since Necrons laugh at silly Warp Users. So, the Old Ones moved to Plan B - the Krork. All this is from the 3rd Ed. Necron Codex. As both Orks and Eldar were created by the Old Ones, it's heavily implied in Xenology that the Eldar and Ork Gods are one and the same.

The two major Gods left being Khaine and Cegorach - the Laughing God. Who are analogous to Gork and Mork.

It's also implied somewhere (I can't remember), that the Emperor is the greatest weapon against Chaos that the C'Tan have. What!? The Emperor is a C'Tan weapon!? Yes. Or it's at least implied that He is.
...It may also explain why Cypher is so keen to get at him. Since he's also an agent of the C'Tan - or at least he used to be.

[Hazzardevil]

Originally Posted by Wraith

It's implied that this is because Orks don't have souls.

At least, not individually - an Ork horde has a soul, made up of the tiny little parts brought together by the Orks within it, and this manifests via the Weirdboy. This is why Weirdboys are more powerful in bigger Waaaghs (they have a 'bigger' and thus more powerful soul) and why only they explode when things go wrong.

According the the 40k wiki other Orks will sometimes explode as well when a weirdboy goes wrong, this is explained by the WAAGH! energy overflows from the Weirdboy and into the other Orks.

[Carry2]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

I'm pretty hazy on the Orks even compared to other factions, but none of this sounds remotely controversial. I mean, what else would Gork and Mork be doing?

That doesn't really solve the problem, though. In theory, the God-Emperor spends his time doing battling the Chaos Gods too, but that doesn't make human psykers immune to daemon influence. (I'm not sure I buy the notion of orks lacking souls, as that has it's own side effects. Collective ensoulment just means collective possession.)

On the subject of Ork technology: I'm pretty sure there are canon sources which state that it basically stops working if you take away the 'Waaagh field' that powers it. To the point that a human guardsman who picks up a shoota would likely have it explode in their face.

I'm aware that most Ork technology is supposed to be genetically encoded, but this runs into two other questions:
(1) Why not simply go the Tyranid route, and grow weapons as an extension of your body? It seems vastly more efficient.
(2) Why, over aeons of natural selection for dakka output, hasn't Ork technology outstripped the imperium? I mean, genetic knowledge would change more slowly than intellectual knowledge, but for a species as live-fast-and-die-hard as the orks, that's gotta accumulate over time.

[shadow_archmagi]

Originally Posted by Carry2

On the subject of Ork technology: I'm pretty sure there are canon sources which state that it basically stops working if you take away the 'Waaagh field' that powers it. To the point that a human guardsman who picks up a shoota would likely have it explode in their face.

While this is true, there are also canon sources (Of which the RT core rulebook is one, and I'm sure there are others) which state that Ork tech functions without orks, just not nearly as well.

Hooray conflicting canon! (Is there a punny word for when two canons fight? Perhaps it's called a broadside?)

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi

While this is true, there are also canon sources (Of which the RT core rulebook is one, and I'm sure there are others) which state that Ork tech functions without orks, just not nearly as well.

The 'Orks tech works because it works' has mostly been phased out since 4th. 'Conflicting canon' isn't so much a thing anymore since 4th, or the end of 3rd. Unless you're deliberately bringing up something from 15 years ago (stuff in 3rd Ed. Codex) in comparison to something very recent - like Rogue Trader.

Unfortunately, the majority of the Internet and 'casuals' get their information from wikis and not from books. However, a quick look on Lexicanum shows me that the 'stupid' side of Ork technology (i.e; It works because it works) isn't there. Which is a good thing. It seems like the community is catching up. Although stuff from the Horus Heresy novels are usually incomplete or missing, which is weird as the Horus Heresy books are considered the 'most canon source yet'.

Ork Tech is now just crude and/or unsafe. The Gargant's fusion core is leaking radiation? Sure is. Probably isn't harmful to the Orks because they're a mixture of fungus, plant and mammal and love radiation (it's why their skin is green, for photosynthesis). But to humans? Deadly. And, because of the near-backwards nature of technology, the Imperium is also really bad at understanding anything they didn't build themselves - and even if they did, they sometimes still don't get it.

[Selrahc]

Since he's also an agent of the C'Tan - or at least he used to be.

Based on what? Cypher used to have a C'Tan phase sword, but so do Callidus assassins. In his hero and villains spotlight yonks ago, it was explained that he lost that same C'Tan blade battling the Necrons...

Cypher has never had an unambiguous motive given for him. So a theory that he was an agent of the C'Tan could make sense, and still include him losing his blade since the C'Tan have a lot of infighting, but you're stating it in pretty bald terms.