Lucid Dreaming skill rework (3.5)

[Qwertystop]

I was thinking about the Lucid Dreaming skill from MotP. I had several problems with it .It can't be used to do much in dreams beyond the superficial, it can be used as astoundingly easy assassination, and it forces you into a campaign world where dreaming is actually more like unconsciously Astral Projecting into a specific plane where stuff trends to be a bit odd. So, I asked around, and after I found that no fix existed,I made one myself.This can absolutely be communal thing, so if anybody has ideas for new functions, they are welcome.Lacking that, I'd like critique on my choice of DCs.

Here goes nothing!
(I'll edit it into a table when I get to am actual computer)


Lucid Dreaming (Cha):

Use	DC
Realize you are dreaming	15 *
Cause superficial/aesthetic change to dream	15*
Cause superficial/aesthetic change to dreamer	15*
Mimic spell effect modifying dream or dreamer	10+(spell level squared)
If you do not have a high enough score in the relevant casting stat to cast the spell	+(twice difference between your score and minimum)
If you do not have any levels in a class that can cast the spell	+10

*Anybody with at least one rank in this skill and at least a +5 modifier to it can take 10 on this check in situations which normally allow taking 10.

When one realizes that they are in a dream, they are no longer bound to following along with it as they normally would.

Attempting to alter another dreamer or their dream against their will requires winning a contested Lucid Dreaming check. The one attempting to not be changed gets a +5 insight bonus to this check in that case.

Damage taken in a lucid dream manifests on waking as nonlethal damage equal to one-third the amount of lethal damage taken in the dream. Death in a lucid dream manifests as immediate waking, nonlethal damage equal to half the dreamers max HP, and two points of Cha burn (this overwrites the normal effect of taking damage in a lucid dream).

Taking 10: No in most cases, but see *.
Use Untrained: Yes, but only for things marked with a *, and for opposing someone else's attempt to change you.
Synergies: Sense Motive, Bluff

[tuggyne]

This looks good on the whole. I have only two comments at present: first, you should specifically call out that being damaged in a lucid dream has consequences for restful sleep (i.e., you lose an hour of sleep, for spellcasters, or something of that nature), and there should be a larger penalty for being "killed" in a lucid dream.

Secondly, the synergy with Forgery is odd; I would expect Bluff to work better, since you're not writing anything down.

[Domriso]

Depending on the nature of dreams within the campaign, I would also add in higher checks that allow for accessing communal dreams, interacting with Dream, and otherwise messing with dreams with your companions.

[nonsi]

Originally Posted by tuggyne

. . . there should be a larger penalty for being "killed" in a lucid dream.

Absolutely.
Many times In literature/movies, getting killed in a manipulated dream is potentially lethal, or at least something that can scar you for life.

Repeated manipulation, OTOH, should raise the DC significantly and have reduced consequences, because the target becomes experienced in this kind of manipulation.

[Qwertystop]

Originally Posted by tuggyne

This looks good on the whole. I have only two comments at present: first, you should specifically call out that being damaged in a lucid dream has consequences for restful sleep (i.e., you lose an hour of sleep, for spellcasters, or something of that nature), and there should be a larger penalty for being "killed" in a lucid dream.

Secondly, the synergy with Forgery is odd; I would expect Bluff to work better, since you're not writing anything down.

A far as restful sleep, what about dividing damage by health and getting that fraction less sleep?
On the note of synergies, I suppose that does sort of fit better. Fixing now.

Originally Posted by Domriso

Depending on the nature of dreams within the campaign, I would also add in higher checks that allow for accessing communal dreams, interacting with Dream, and otherwise messing with dreams with your companions.

Hmmm... Problem with that its it locks you right back into the dreaming-is-its-own-plane interpretation that I wanted to avoid. Maybe a Bard spell to go into someone else's dream that can be cast from inside the dream?

Originally Posted by nonsi

Absolutely.
Many times In literature/movies, getting killed in a manipulated dream is potentially lethal, or at least something that can scar you for life.

Repeated manipulation, OTOH, should raise the DC significantly and have reduced consequences, because the target becomes experienced in this kind of manipulation.

What do you think about making it ability drain instead of damage? Or possibly burn?

And... Did you just request that the skill get weaker and harder to use the more you use it? I'm not going to redo the Truenamer, here.

Edit: clarified what happens if you try to change someone else.

[nonsi]

Originally Posted by Qwertystop

What do you think about making it ability drain instead of damage? Or possibly burn?

Good call. Burn or drain. I'll leave the details to you.

[Qwertystop]

Originally Posted by nonsi

Good call. Burn or drain. I'll leave the details to you.

Yeah, Burn sounded better to me, but I wasn't sure. Change incoming.

[willpell]

I like this as a starting point, but I feel as if all the DCs except the first one ought to be 5 higher. Lucid dreaming is a very rare thing; I've done it precisely thrice, and I was never able to make any changes to the dreamscape during those episodes, so I suspect it's more difficult - knowing you're dreaming just involves becoming aware, while changing anything requires enforcing your will over your perceptions and thus is akin to disbelieving a high-level illusion (with your subconscious as the caster, so it'd be vaguely as if you were possessed by a demon that was casting illusions on your own eyes which it disbelieves while looking out through them).

I also think there's a problem with the fact that the nonlethal damage on awakening is incapable of killing someone, even if they have a heart condition or the like. Use of lucid dreaming as an assassination effort should be almost impossible, but not inherently defined by the system as completely so. I'd go for something like "roll the target's Hit Dice as nonlethal damage; if reduced to 0, the target fails to awaken. Make a Will save 5 minutes later to wake up; if you fail, you slip into a coma. While comatose, make a Fortitude save; on a failure you die." Something along those lines. The probability of death is extremely low, but if you spammed this effect nightly you'd have a chance of it eventually working, especially if you targeted people who appeared frail or weak-willed.

Originally Posted by tuggyne

Secondly, the synergy with Forgery is odd; I would expect Bluff to work better, since you're not writing anything down.

The problem is just that Bluff already has three full synergies and a conditional one attached to it; I'd be happier not having it become more of a god-skill. Perhaps Knowledge: Psionics or Concentration instead?

Originally Posted by nonsi

Absolutely.
Many times In literature/movies, getting killed in a manipulated dream is potentially lethal, or at least something that can scar you for life.

To the extent where this is far too much of a cliche, IMO. Reality suggests that there is little evidence for this, and so I disfavor the idea of making it too reliable, as it breaks suspension of disbelief.

[General Patton]

Originally Posted by willpell

The problem is just that Bluff already has three full synergies and a conditional one attached to it; I'd be happier not having it become more of a god-skill. Perhaps Knowledge: Psionics or Concentration instead?

Autohypnosis?

[Eldan]

Should it even be its own skill? It sounds like it could just be a sub-set of Autohypnosis.

Another possible application: defeat a Nightmare spell.

[Qwertystop]

Originally Posted by willpell

I like this as a starting point, but I feel as if all the DCs except the first one ought to be 5 higher. Lucid dreaming is a very rare thing; I've done it precisely thrice, and I was never able to make any changes to the dreamscape during those episodes, so I suspect it's more difficult - knowing you're dreaming just involves becoming aware, while changing anything requires enforcing your will over your perceptions and thus is akin to disbelieving a high-level illusion (with your subconscious as the caster, so it'd be vaguely as if you were possessed by a demon that was casting illusions on your own eyes which it disbelieves while looking out through them).

While I get it's a difficult thing, remember how much a single skill point can do in some cases. Jump, for example. Or Knowledge - even half a skill point brings you from "only knows common-knowledge stuff" to "might know something up to DC 20 or more, with luck". Five points in Ride, for someone with completely average Dexterity, allows them to not fall out when the horse rears unexpectedly, and to guide the horse, not just without reins, but without hands.

I also think there's a problem with the fact that the nonlethal damage on awakening is incapable of killing someone, even if they have a heart condition or the like. Use of lucid dreaming as an assassination effort should be almost impossible, but not inherently defined by the system as completely so. I'd go for something like "roll the target's Hit Dice as nonlethal damage; if reduced to 0, the target fails to awaken. Make a Will save 5 minutes later to wake up; if you fail, you slip into a coma. While comatose, make a Fortitude save; on a failure you die." Something along those lines. The probability of death is extremely low, but if you spammed this effect nightly you'd have a chance of it eventually working, especially if you targeted people who appeared frail or weak-willed.

Actually, that sounds like a really good idea. I couldn't figure a way for it to work that it was possible for them to die but not likely or abusable, and you've got a great one right there. Mind if I tweak it a bit? Specifically, saying "If you fail the Will save, take Wisdom damage equal to your Wisdom score" so that there is a clear way out of the coma (I figured that the larger amount of damage makes up for it being damage instead of burn).

The problem is just that Bluff already has three full synergies and a conditional one attached to it; I'd be happier not having it become more of a god-skill. Perhaps Knowledge: Psionics or Concentration instead?

Now why didn't I think of Concentration for this?

Originally Posted by General Patton

Autohypnosis?

That too.

Originally Posted by Eldan

Should it even be its own skill? It sounds like it could just be a sub-set of Autohypnosis.

Another possible application: defeat a Nightmare spell.

Subset? No. While it might sort of fit, Autohypnosis is good enough as a utility skill as-is without adding more.
Defeating a Nightmare? That's a good use. How should I scale the DC to the caster level, do you think?

[Qwertystop]

Here's an idea I had for getting into other people's dreams:


Dreamshare
Bard 3
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 10 feet per two caster levels
Target: One creature per two caster levels
Duration: Eight hours or see text
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

This spell can be cast either awake or from in a lucid dream. If it is cast while awake, it has it's "from inside a lucid dream" effect, but delayed until the caster and at least one target fall asleep. When cast from inside a lucid dream, the caster and all targets (targets are chosen from people sleeping within range in reality, not from dream-figments) join a communal dream (and are lucid while in that dream). This is basically the same as any other lucid dream except that there are multiple actual people present in it.

[Debihuman]

Attempting to alter another dreamer or their dream against their will requires winning a contested Lucid Dreaming check. The one attempting to not be changes gets +5 to this check in that case.

You might want to rephrase this a bit and note what kind of bonus is gained.

For example:

Attempting to alter another dreamer or its dream against its will requires winning a contested Lucid Dreaming check. The one attempting not to be changed gains a +5 Insight bonus to this check in that case.

Debby

[Eldan]

Originally Posted by Qwertystop

Subset? No. While it might sort of fit, Autohypnosis is good enough as a utility skill as-is without adding more.
Defeating a Nightmare? That's a good use. How should I scale the DC to the caster level, do you think?

Hmm.
"You may use your Lucid Dreaming skill in place of a will save against any effect that can only be cast on you while you are sleeping"?

[Qwertystop]

Originally Posted by Debihuman

You might want to rephrase this a bit and note what kind of bonus is gained.

For example:

Attempting to alter another dreamer or its dream against its will requires winning a contested Lucid Dreaming check. The one attempting not to be changed gains a +5 Insight bonus to this check in that case.

Debby

Umm... Why can't it be an untyped bonus?

Originally Posted by Eldan;

Hmm.
"You may use your Lucid Dreaming skill in place of a will save against any effect that can only be cast on you while you are sleeping"?

Yeah, that looks good.

[radmelon]

In response to what willpell mentioned, the rate of lucidity varies from person to person. For example, most of my dreams (that I remember) are lucid, although I have never been able to successfully change anything. If anything, it makes my nightmares even more terrifying, as I know that logic can't help me, and that I can never entirely outrun the monster.

With that over with, I like these rules, simple and efficient. I'm assuming that for the most part spell duplication isn't all that necessary, as most effects can fall under 'cause significant chance to dream.'

[Qwertystop]

Originally Posted by radmelon

With that over with, I like these rules, simple and efficient. I'm assuming that for the most part spell duplication isn't all that necessary, as most effects can fall under 'cause significant chance to dream.'

Actually, I was considering removal "cause significant change", because there's such a wide variety of possible changes that it seems a bit off to give all of it one static DC. I was just going to put in a few specific DCs for the more typical changes like creating objects, and leave it to "create spell effect" otherwise.

[Debihuman]

Originally Posted by Qwertystop

Umm... Why can't it be an untyped bonus?

It could be but it is makes more sense to have it as an Insight bonus or a Circumstance bonus since it comes from having the skill. Untyped bonuses stack and this probably shouldn't.

Debby

[Qwertystop]

Originally Posted by Debihuman

It could be but it is makes more sense to have it as an Insight bonus or a Circumstance bonus since it comes from having the skill. Untyped bonuses stack and this probably shouldn't.

Debby

Um... It doesn't come from having the skill (Though I did make it Insight). It comes from the inherent instability of the fact that (at least in my interpretation) it's easier to stop yourself from changing than to change somebody else (Hence Insight - you know yourself). The skill can be used untrained for minor effects and defending yoursel-

Oh. I forgot to put that bit in, didn't I.

Yep. Oops.


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On another note, the class I was doing this rework for is... Well, it's nowhere near complete, but it is public. Here.