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I am considering the nature of the divine. I know I don't want the usual fruit basket of competing divinities and yet I also want the kind of all to human bickering gods.
Any relevant thoughts and ideas would be appreciated.
Archetypes/Patrons
These are sort of gods. They are:
Timeless: They do not age and can't be killed.
Mindless: Or if they have a mind no one has ever found it.
Celestial: They are visible as bodies (planets?) in the nights sky.
Amoral: They exist quite apart from good and evil.
Polly: 9-16 of them
Destiny: They are used in a similar way to birthsigns
Each archetype represents a force or role in peoples lives and society. For example
The warrior
The shepherd
The Mother
The Reaper
...extra
Titans
Similar to the patrons.
They where the old physical gods.
The are divine giants.
They dream or are otherwise asleep.
They embody the power of nature rather than that culture
They are the pregonators of the giants
The eldest of their children are the Jhontus (Divine nature giants)
Exarch
These are ascendant beings who have somehow managed to tap into the power of the archetypes. They are somewhere between saints, arch-beings and gods.
An archetype in this acts something like a portfolio; an exarch in someway has to be alined and resonate with his archetype.
As a person the exarch may be good, evil, neither or both in a way that the non-sentient archetypes may not. It is probably just as well that they rarely take a direct hand (or indeed interest) in mortal affairs
Most take up residence in the outer planes. They take or share a home plane to act not only as their residence but also as a soul clearing house. Some exarchs are living beings (saints).
Physical gods
These are living immortal beings who are worshiped and consume soul energy.
It is believed but not known that they can tap into the power of the patrons and the titans.
Souls
The Exarchs don't particularly need your worship or faith except as a means to an end. They want your soul; worship helps them get it.
When they get a hold of your soul they subject it to "reward" or "torment" (strong emotional stimuli). By doing so they harness the energy of your soul, sucking the power out of it until you are spent; where upon they eject you soul out of the celestial plains and if your lucky back down to earth to be reused.
Sort of like combining the Exalted cosmology with The Elder Scrolls astrological symbolism?
You might want to look into Buddhism and Hinduism for inspiration -- namely, the various religious canon on the Bodhisattva, Hindu Deities and spiritual entities. I think there`s more for you there.
Trickster is good. I was kind of stumped for a full list so that one is in.
The bodhisattva/hindu deity concept is one I like. I will look into it.
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Sort of like combining the Exalted cosmology with The Elder Scrolls astrological symbolism?
I was considering the elder scrolls a little when I thought of it. I am considering pulling apart the class system somewhat in favor of something else. Archetype might be used to give background feats/class skill as something else to stack with race/templates.
I have never read into exalted though; is it worth finding out more?
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You know how the gilyanthi and the gilzathi live in the bodies of dead god? The archetypes physical forms are a little like that only they where never alive in any real sense. They are kind of a standing wave of power which at first arose from and now enforce the way people live. This is part of the reason for the medieval stasis.
I like the idea that they act as a sort of clerical domains except for exarchs and not priests. An exarch can sort of pick and mix when creating their divinity.
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Instead of creating lots and lots of pathons I can create a tool-kit for DMs to create their own gods/daemons. I mean that's what I am really trying to do now to create the gods. I just need a fistful of examples.
God of War
God of Love
God of Family
God of Leadership
God of Trade and the Seas
God of Knowledge and magic (Mystra, but not a mary sue)
God of Death
God of Fire and Forge
God of Night and Hunt
God of Light and Good
God of PCs (whats his name from PF is hilarious. Get drunk> make bet> become god)
God of Lawful Evil (Asmodeus is awesome)
You need two gods of war. Almost every pantheon has two. An honorable god & a savage god. Athena & Ares is the go-to example of this but there are more
The archetypes are universal; one set of patrons and one set of titans.
A soldier who became an exarch through the warrior archetype have a different outlook and nature as would a berserker or a warlord.
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I like the idea that the stars are planes. Most of the brightest stars are the heavens (afterlifes and divine home planes). Pantheons cluster their planes together in relatively stable formations (the constellations). The links between the constellations are clearly visible under mage sight.
When two pantheons go to war you can see their constellations fighting. When gods die their stars fade and when pantheons fall their constellations fall apart.
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Exarch come in various ranks of power from a lowly deva through seraphim, archons and all the way to an exalted throne.
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Dijn are souls who resonate with the titans. When they aren't off granting horrifically distorted wishes or collecting/tormenting mortal souls they act as the servants and attendants of the titans.
Trickster is good. I was kind of stumped for a full list so that one is in.
The bodhisattva/hindu deity concept is one I like. I will look into it.
I was considering the elder scrolls a little when I thought of it. I am considering pulling apart the class system somewhat in favor of something else. Archetype might be used to give background feats/class skill as something else to stack with race/templates.
I have never read into exalted though; is it worth finding out more?
Exalted astronomical bodies have Celestial Incarnations which represent their power, they're based largely on some obvious archetypes we usually associate with them in our collective myths. They've also got Primordials, which are stand-ins for Greek Titans -- Including Gaia, who became the Earth itself and birthed the elemental Devas. Then there are a variety of concepts lifted from Eastern religions -- including reincarnation and deification.
It's got a number of similarities to your perspective. The idea of a morally neutral or ambiguous pantheon is fairly well represented.
Last edited by Kitten Champion : 11-12-2012 at 04:01 PM.
This doesn't fit your framework, but maybe you can get an idea from it.
Generally, gods in fantasy games are either the human sort of the fruit basket because they start from humanocentric values and then become more extreme, so you get things like archetypes, whatever people care about a lot, etc.
What if instead you start by assuming that the gods are completely external and completely predate humanity, including even basic things about what it means to be human. Instead, they are there because they are necessary and are doing some task according to their own motives. E.g. 'we must create a world and fill it with life, but let us not make it in our own image - let us make it in the image of what we need'.
So instead of the usual bickering, god-vs-god opposed pantheon you have a pantheon who all work together (perhaps barring minor disagreements, but nothing like an alignment war) towards a goal that is incomprehensible (or at least, unobvious) to mortals. If one of them is called the god of rain, it is because his job somehow involves rain from time to time, not because he thinks rain is neat and embodies the concept.
Because the goal of the gods may not align with mankind, you don't get a 'perfect world' where everyone is happy because the gods agree and use omnipotence to make everyone happy. Instead you get a world where sure, there may be occasional divine intervention or aid, but there is a true ineffability to the gods and they have no reason to be loyal to their worshippers unless it aligns with their true purpose.
You cannot come up with a pantheon separate from a cosmology.
How was the Universe created. Are the goods creators or creatures (i.e., did they create the universe or did it create them?)
Where and under what conditions do they have power?
After those basic questions are answered, it will be easier to produce a set of powerful beings that fit within it.
I once created a universe whose origin is that it was created by a being to play games in for others of its ilk, which after all, was the simple truth. The conclusion I drew was that any god should be an outgrowth of my personality and mind.
Something else to think about. Is the power of a god separate from the being? Do they have mantles of power that others can take up? Say the God of War was slain, can another take up the mantle & become the new God of War? If the God of Vigilance wants to step down & become a mortal, can she give her mantle of power to a worthy mortal? Can another god steal another god's mantle?
Here's my go to list of custom gods, for when the Dm asks me to choose a god, but doesn't specify or just doesn't care where i pull them from.
Stabbity McAxeforface,
Alignment: evil, chaotic
Domains: fear, chaos, destruction
Portfolio: fear: death, destruction, stabbing, headbunting
Weapon: Mithral helmet shaped like an axe, used for head bunt smite attempts.
Granted power: fear as a spell like ability, 3/day. unarmed strike (head bunt only) as a bonus feat at 1st level.
Gender: male
Heally McNiceNice
Aligment: lawful good
Domains: good, healing, protection
Portfolio: healing, being nice, making nice
Weapon: Heally McNiceNice doesn’t believe in using weapons
Granted power: healing spells are treated as being +1 caster level. charm person as a spell like ability 3/day
Gender: female
Apathy Von Doesn’tcare
Alignment: true neutral,
Domains: good, evil
Portfolio: apathy, neutrality, not giving a damn, indecisiveness
Weapon: any 1 weapon, Apathy doesn’t care enough to pick one
Granted power: Priests of Apathy receive 1 XP/level every hour they spend doing nothing at all.
Gender: doesn’t care.
Note: Apathy doesn’t care enough to choose a gender, which has caused a rift in the church of Apathy. One faction believes apathy to be male, another side female but the third side (and the true side) doesn’t care.
I also want the kind of all to human bickering gods.
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Originally Posted by toapat
God of War
God of Love
God of Family
God of Leadership...
This kind of one-sided personality doesn't really provide "all too human" gods. Even gods need hobbies. Look at the Olympians. Poseidon isn't just a water god: he's the god of the sea, and earthquakes, and horses. Apollo is the god of poetry, music, the sun, disease, medicine, archery, and prophecy. Hermes is the god of thieves, guards, messengers, and magic. Apollo controls both the spreading and curing of diseases, while Hermes helps both cops and robbers. They get them "coming and going". Ares is the god of WAR... and also farming.
If you want human-like gods with personalities, then make them as characters first. Don't make "The Sea God". Make Poseidon: the god who loves the crashing waves of the sea, the deep rumbling of earthquakes, the pounding hooves of running horses, and John Bonham's 20-minute drum solo.
Think of them like superheroes. Do you want "The Flash is really, really fast"? Or do you want "The Flash is super fast and he loves to eat anything because he's always really hungry and he's always making jokes and he procrastinates a lot because he can always get everything done at the last minute"? Do you want the boring old Aquaman who just talks to fish once in a while or do you want the cool new Aquaman who's the king of Atlantis and commands sea life with his telepathy and who cut off his own hand to save his son and then replaced it with a harpoon/hook thing and doesn't take any crap from anyone?
Also...
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Originally Posted by Blightedmarsh
When they get a hold of your soul they subject it to "reward" or "torment" (strong emotional stimuli). By doing so they harness the energy of your soul, sucking the power out of it until you are spent; where upon they eject you soul out of the celestial plains and if your lucky back down to earth to be reused.
Do people know about this? This is a pretty strong argument for not worshiping them.
Have more gods that normal people would worship, not just adventurers looking for the best domains and secret cults that make messes even the most laid back janitor might take issue with.
I recommend looking up actual mythology for some inspiration, though obviously we can't discuss the specifics here.
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Originally Posted by Calanon
Raven_Cry's comments often have the effects of a +5 Tome of Understanding
Have more gods that normal people would worship, not just adventurers looking for the best domains and secret cults that make messes even the most laid back janitor might take issue with.
I recommend looking up actual mythology for some inspiration, though obviously we can't discuss the specifics here.
I think that only really applies to religions that have a larger religious following then Jedism (which leaves us with Babylonian, Egytian, Greek/roman, and Norse)
Jedism: RAW faith of all paladins (the actual Lore group is Budhism, trading out the cycle of reincarnation for the Chivalric Code.)
I think that only really applies to religions that have a larger religious following then Jedism (which leaves us with Babylonian, Egytian, Greek/roman, and Norse)
Jedism: RAW faith of all paladins (the actual Lore group is Budhism, trading out the cycle of reincarnation for "Heart is pretty badass")
What are you talking about? What's Jedism? ALso, I am not sure what you mean by Budhism, though I have a guess.
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Originally Posted by Calanon
Raven_Cry's comments often have the effects of a +5 Tome of Understanding
What are you talking about? What's Jedism? ALso, I am not sure what you mean by Budhism, though I have a guess.
Jedi-ism, is the following of the Tennants of the Jedi Order IRL. It basically comes down to Buddhism trading out the circle of life concept for Psionics and the codes of Chivalry.
Its basically LG: the religion. And it is really popular in England, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand
Jedi-ism, is the following of the Tennants of the Jedi Order IRL. It basically comes down to Buddhism trading out the circle of life concept for Psionics and the codes of Chivalry.
Its basically LG: the religion. And it is really popular in England, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand
Oh, I've heard of that; the trouble is you spelled it and Buddhism wrong the first time.This made it look like you said Jud-ism and Bud-hism, and both prefixes are names.
Still not sure what that has to do with my recommendation's however.
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Originally Posted by Calanon
Raven_Cry's comments often have the effects of a +5 Tome of Understanding
Oh, I've heard of that; the trouble is you spelled it and Buddhism wrong the first time.This made it look like you said Jud-ism and Bud-hism, and both prefixes are names.
Still not sure what that has to do with my recommendation's however.
IE, can talk about the religions that are nigh extinct and people only follow on Wikipedia and obscure websites, who bicker on them endlessly over minute details from tomes lost to time and sand/ice.
IE, can talk about the religions that are nigh extinct and people only follow on Wikipedia and obscure websites, who bicker on them endlessly over minute details from tomes lost to time and sand/ice.
Oh! Still somewhat confused, but the basic rule of ' Real Life™ mythology counts as discussing religion' applies as far as I know, even if as a religion it is basically extinct.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calanon
Raven_Cry's comments often have the effects of a +5 Tome of Understanding
Reward/Torment afterlives may be a bit black & white. You could have it that the mortal soul goes to serve the god they worshiped/owed allegiance to/most identified with, & they continue to serve them in death. So the Reaper god has you till his field, the War god drafts you into his/her glorious army, evil gods make you their torture slaves. You could also apply a metaphysical surrealism to it. The Eternal Scribe might use your soul to like paper, writing upon you like you were a stickynote, or you are transformed into a book containing everything you know, & placed on a shelf in his Endless Archive, to be used by those seeking the Eternal Scribe's assistance & asking for divine aid. Maybe your are forced to remember an array of obscure facts & continuously repeat, the number of pi, or how many steps the Temple of the West King has, or the lineage of a lowly farmer, or to describe & quantify the number of hairs on the back of a stray cat in some little coastal village.
Oh! Still somewhat confused, but the basic rule of ' Real Life™ mythology counts as discussing religion' applies as far as I know, even if as a religion it is basically extinct.
We could always talk about the religions that D&D covers within it's source material right? The Egyptian, Norse, & Greek pantheons are all in Deities & Demigods so they are free game right?
We could always talk about the religions that D&D covers within it's source material right? The Egyptian, Norse, & Greek pantheons are all in Deities & Demigods so they are free game right?
Ask a mod, to be honest, though in my opinion we would have to restrict things very carefully to within their representation in said source material, no more, no less.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calanon
Raven_Cry's comments often have the effects of a +5 Tome of Understanding
I envisage that the universe is a kind of heat exchange engine between the positive and negative energy planes.
Many people believe that the universe itself is a kind of god; a Cthulian denizen of the far planes if you will. Nobody really knows for certain and no one is sure they want to actually find out.
The war between good and evil is more about resources and ideology than it is about dominion and so forth. Its also more of a shifting cold war with border skirmishes and proxy wars that an all out blood war.
Good and evil (objective) do not necessarily equate to righteousness and wickedness (subjective).
There is no forces of order or chaos.
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How was the Universe created. Are the goods creators or creatures (i.e., did they create the universe or did it create them?)
The dreaming
Spoiler
The old wars
In the old world of the before the world was inhabited by a plethora of races. A huge diversity of aberrant races of which humans where only one. Each race wielded one of the great magics; humanities magic was faith, their gods where physical beings that walked the earth.
The race wars that followed where a series of protracted conflicts to determine the dominion of the world. It destroyed the aberrant species one by one as they where driven to near (or absolute) extinction, exiled from the earth or sealed away. In the end humanity won.
The remaking
Using the secrets we had won we built a tippyverse (sans golems) and for an age of the world it was good. But the world is cyclic, the powers that sustain it periodically destroy and remake it. Humanity wasn't going to just let this happen; not after sacrificing so much, not after coming so far.
We attempted to use (abuse) true naming to change the nature of humanity, change the fate of the world. It went disastrously wrong. Eldrich energy flooded into the world through the teleportal networks remaking the world as it was.
The space time of the landscape was changed into a shifting and twisting taffy (kind of fae wild).
The gods where pulled apart; the bodies becoming the titans and the mandates becoming the patrons.
The mages of the city became Alfar (insane immortal elves and living demi-gods)
The surviving peoples of the city became trow (immortal baby trolls) or worse.
Humanity (and all humans) lost its truname
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Something else to think about. Is the power of a god separate from the being? Do they have mantles of power that others can take up? Say the God of War was slain, can another take up the mantle & become the new God of War? If the God of Vigilance wants to step down & become a mortal, can she give her mantle of power to a worthy mortal? Can another god steal another god's mantle?
Since their "mantle" is part and parcel of a gods soul technically yes but it won't be pretty.
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Do people know about this? This is a pretty strong argument for not worshiping them.
Some people are aware but their are reasons to worship in-spite (or because) of this.
Its a wild ride whilst it lasts
Priests (and living but not celestial gods) draw power from the faith and worship of the faithful.
Unclaimed souls are drawn into the positive or negative energy planes never to be seen or heard of again. It is generally assumed that the are destroyed but very few people want to find out personally; of those that have none are in any position to tell about it.
Because the world is an extremely dangerous place for mortals and any spiritual protection (at almost any price) is welcomed.
Of course some people have had more than enough of the gods and the fae and have developed their own counter argument (see sig for a sub-setting of the overall work I am progressing on)
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Have more gods that normal people would worship, not just adventurers looking for the best domains and secret cults that make messes even the most laid back janitor might take issue with.
I like the idea that there are about a dozen or so patrons an equal number of titans (a kind of skeksis thing if you follow but with man/nature rather than good/evil).
The exarchs are kind of like regional saints or kami. Every region, people and individual have their favorites though some are wider known than others. The could be thousands of them both real and imagined.
Gobliniods interpret it differently; as stories and character archetypes.
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Reward/Torment afterlives may be a bit black & white. You could have it that the mortal soul goes to serve the god they worshiped/owed allegiance to/most identified with, & they continue to serve them in death. So the Reaper god has you till his field, the War god drafts you into his/her glorious army, evil gods make you their torture slaves. You could also apply a metaphysical surrealism to it. The Eternal Scribe might use your soul to like paper, writing upon you like you were a stickynote, or you are transformed into a book containing everything you know, & placed on a shelf in his Endless Archive, to be used by those seeking the Eternal Scribe's assistance & asking for divine aid. Maybe your are forced to remember an array of obscure facts & continuously repeat, the number of pi, or how many steps the Temple of the West King has, or the lineage of a lowly farmer, or to describe & quantify the number of hairs on the back of a stray cat in some little coastal village.
Now that is good; I like.
Duality
Patrons (a better name for the cultural achetypes) I have good fleshout concept of are:
The Lover/Mother:
The patron of fools and parents. All about growing up, the mistakes we make
and the lessons it that teaches us. Symbol is the circle/ring.
The Sage:
Trickster and teacher. At bet benevolent and fun loving, at worst manipulative and destructive. Symbol is the quill
The Warrior:
Protector (guardian) and destroyer (reaver). Symbols are the shield and spear respectively.
The Balance: (the judge)
All about fairness and justice. About judgement and forgiveness, vengeance and mercy, duty and charity. Symbol are the scales and cudgel.
The Farmer:
About the planting (plowman) and the harvest (reaper). Fertility, death and fatherhood. The symbol is grain.
The Shepherd:
This one is all about looking after (herdsman) and standing judgement over (butcher) the flock. Is a metaphor for leadership (also known as the steward/tyrant). The symbols are the crook / brand.
Others I have a basic concept of/need help with:
The hunter: Hunting/watching/tracking/stealth. Patron of thieves and police.
The merchant
The artisan: Craft/art. Education and inspiration
I think wordplay can produce some interesting gods.
For example, consider having a god of Time and Money.
Or expand a domain of an existing god. For example, the roman god Vesta was the goddess of the heath (fire) and home... and by twisting it a bit, you can maker her the godess of arson.
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