Fanservice, Opinions?

[Serpentine]

And in that case, it's probably not fanservice *shrug*

[Surrealistik]

Originally Posted by Serpentine

Then submit the sexy yet non-fanservice scene of your choice.

Virtually every scene involving Michelle Pfeiffer in Scarface.

I just don't see the sexual appeal/eroticism of gore/tortureporn I'm afraid; American Psycho did less than nothing for me.

[Serpentine]

Originally Posted by Surrealistik

Virtually every scene involving Michelle Pfeiffer in Scarface.

(I haven't seen the movie, and looking at the photos that come up when I search for it this could well fit perfectly well with the character and her situations and the context and so not really be the sort of fanservice I'm thinking of, but anyway...)
Now imagine that when she's shown walking there's a shot with the camera down on the floor looking straight at her underwear, and every time she moves her boobs jiggle and bounce dramatically, possibly with sound effects*. Is it still as sexy? More to the point, is it sexier?


*granted, I'm thinking of the HSotD nurse with that last bit, and that was pretty funny and clearly meant to be.

[Dienekes]

Originally Posted by Surrealistik

Virtually every scene involving Michelle Pfeiffer in Scarface.

I just don't see the sexual appeal/eroticism of gore/tortureporn I'm afraid; American Psycho did less than nothing for me.

That movie was supposed to be sexy? I thought we were just supposed to be intrigued/amused by how insane Bateman was. Dude threw a chainsaw from a spiral stairway to impale someone and tried to feed a cat to an ATM. Great movie.

Originally Posted by Zrak

Are Martin's descriptions of breasts particularly detailed? I pretty much just remember him mentioning them being there. While, normally, that would be more detail than required, since a reasonable reader would typically assume that they were there, Westeros is a really, really awful place, and I feel like it's useful to catalogue which body parts a character retains, from time to time.

He has a tendency to focus more on the beauty of females than males. In fairness to him though, when he takes a female perspective that female does tend to notice exemplars of masculinity, however, it's pretty obvious that he personally isn't interested in it and so the actual descriptions are rather simplistic.

[Avilan the Grey]

Originally Posted by Serpentine

...or when a movie comes up with a contrived and flagrant excuse to have a main character running around in their underwear. Does anyone here *seriously* find that sort of thing titillating?

Yes and no. Halle Barry in her underwear? Of course I find that titillating. However if it feels too contrived, it takes away from it.

[Traab]

Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey

Yes and no. Halle Barry in her underwear? Of course I find that titillating. However if it feels too contrived, it takes away from it.

Halle Berry topless in Swordfish. Contrived? Yes. Titillating? Surprisingly not as much as I would have expected.

[Avilan the Grey]

Originally Posted by Traab

Halle Berry topless in Swordfish. Contrived? Yes. Titillating? Surprisingly not as much as I would have expected.

Exactly.

Also, Halle Barry in the "Catwoman" movie with the "Catwoman" costume: Horrible. IN alll ways.

But yes, I think Chuck was an example of Fanservice done well; the show was running on it like I am running on cola...

[Surrealistik]

Originally Posted by Dienekes

That movie was supposed to be sexy? I thought we were just supposed to be intrigued/amused by how insane Bateman was. Dude threw a chainsaw from a spiral stairway to impale someone and tried to feed a cat to an ATM. Great movie.

It clearly was not intended to be sexy; I'm holding the visceral bits up as something that might 'resonate' with a torture porn affictionado, but that personally repulsed me. It was very much gallows humour, without question. I enjoyed it, much as the goriest parts were stomach churning.


@ Serpentine: No. I generally don't enjoy excess fan service that borders on (or crosses over to) silliness. The possible exception is if I haven't been laid in a week+ or it's deliberately meant to be satire and succeeds. That said, I have nothing against sexy outfits and the like, so long as it remains shy of being ludicrous; anime is often guilty of that.

[Zrak]

I'm with Serpentine. I'd be way more into a bloodspattered warrior than a glamorous moll with, shall we say, an expensive allergy.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Fanservice never really bothers me no matter how blatant it gets. It will sometimes spark the thought "that's a nice set of 'features'" but that's about it.

The only time it really grabs my attention is in shows like Girls Bravo, where it's practically the entire point of the show.

Incidentally, Girls Bravo is one of the few shows that has put me in danger of rolling off the couch with laughter. In the one scene where Yukinari actually says "wow, you are bat-**** crazy aren't'cha?" at Lisa's back, the very line I've been thinking since they introduced her, I lost it. Had to pause netflix and collect myself so I wouldn't get hurt.

I'm pretty sure I'm a pervert though (at least the wife says so regularly enough), so take anything I have to say on this subject with a big grain of salt.

[Serpentine]

Originally Posted by Zrak

I'm with Serpentine. I'd be way more into a bloodspattered warrior than a glamorous moll with, shall we say, an expensive allergy.

It's not really a matter of which one I'm into (and I'm not sure what I'm into, but I don't think it's either of those two options, really), but the ridiculous, gratuitous and completely unnecessary extra stuff they shoehorn in. My point was that you can have sexy and sexual without being pervy and pointless.

[Zrak]

Well, then, that's just more bloodspattered warriors for this guy.

[The_Shaman]

I like fanservice when it is tasteful and well-integrated in the setting and the general narrative. For example, (huge) cleavages and bared midriff/thighs in an armor designed for battle gets on my nerves, because I expect a scene to make sense - and in battle, you want a functional protection, not a showpiece (unless for some reason you aren't taking the battle seriously). Mages and the like are exempt if they can count on a protective field, but fighters have only themselves and their gear to make sure they make it. On the other hand, in a gladiatorial show, the same armor can be quite okay - the purpose of the fight is to be entertaining to the audience and look good; the life and death of the competitors are not the biggest concern. "Armor" that doesn't really stop that many blows but shows off the warriors' bodies was made for such events.

There is time and place for everything, including sexuality. If you want to show us the physical assets of the cast, have a scene that allows you to do this - chilling out at home, party, shower scene, etc. The same character uses practical armor in battle can wear a fairly revealing cocktail dress or walk around with little on when alone in her appartment. Just do it in a way that makes sense for the character.

[Kato]

Originally Posted by Dienekes

He has a tendency to focus more on the beauty of females than males. In fairness to him though, when he takes a female perspective that female does tend to notice exemplars of masculinity, however, it's pretty obvious that he personally isn't interested in it and so the actual descriptions are rather simplistic.

Well, in his defense, he is a straight male as far as I know.
No matter how hard I tried I don't think I could write down a way to describe a man in a way that a woman would feel... aroused. Or interested. Whatever word one would prefer. Okay, he is a professional writer but still. I don't think it is easy for a man to capture what really attracts a woman and the other way round.


So, speaking of female friendly fanservice... Is there really such a thing? Okay, I'm sure there is, but a topless male is... pretty normal. When is it female friendly fanservice, when you can see some well trained buttocks?

[Avilan the Grey]

Originally Posted by Kato

So, speaking of female friendly fanservice... Is there really such a thing? Okay, I'm sure there is, but a topless male is... pretty normal. When is it female friendly fanservice, when you can see some well trained buttocks?

Well George of the Jungle... for example.

[Traab]

Originally Posted by Kato

Well, in his defense, he is a straight male as far as I know.
No matter how hard I tried I don't think I could write down a way to describe a man in a way that a woman would feel... aroused. Or interested. Whatever word one would prefer. Okay, he is a professional writer but still. I don't think it is easy for a man to capture what really attracts a woman and the other way round.


So, speaking of female friendly fanservice... Is there really such a thing? Okay, I'm sure there is, but a topless male is... pretty normal. When is it female friendly fanservice, when you can see some well trained buttocks?

Well, there is always this kind of thing

[Serpentine]

I found some female/gay gaze fanservice art just last night. It's not as common and often not as obvious, but it exists.

[warty goblin]

I don't know if it does anything for women or men who are into men, but as a straight man I can watch an awful lot of Jason Mamoa as Khal Drogo. Doesn't do anything for me sexually, but my god he's a beautiful man...

[Avilan the Grey]

About fanservice for women:

"Look at me. Now look ar your man. Now back at me." ...

[Zrak]

I think fanservice aimed at women is more common than people here seem to think. It's just important to remember that fanservice is created with the intention, not the result, of appealing to a certain demographic's vapidly lustful eye. Recall, in example, Leonard Stiltskin's discussion of Channing Tatum on Party Down.

[Scowling Dragon]

Jhonny Depp and Hugh Jackman are living female fanservice.

[Kitten Champion]

It's funny, I'm reading a fantasy series called The Seventh Sword by Dave Duncan. The protagonist, who's a middle-aged office worker from Waterloo, Ontario has been killed by encephalitis after a hiking trip and wakes up in the body of a swordmaster in a largely Japanese inspired fantasy world flavoured with an Aztec setting.

At first he sees the ubiquitous exposed skin on behalf of the younger female population (the slaves in particular) as a sort of sexual fantasy, then he gets massively self-conscious about it once he starts to truly interact with the women in the world.

In the end, he ends up burying most of his preconceptions which an average modern-day Westerner labours under. He comes to realize that he -- wearing only a loin cloth, head scarf. and sandals while wielding a giant phallic sword -- is probably not that different from the skimpy clothes women are expected to tie themselves into.
______________________________

I've encounter lots of female fanservice, the modern urban fantasy market is chock full of it. Mostly they make me want to hit the female protagonist for getting massively off-track.

[Chen]

Originally Posted by Traab

Even more clearly fanservice, the episode where xander did the love spell and buffy is trying to seduce him wearing a trench coat over lingerie. I mean, the swim team episode was fanservicey, but as you said, it fit the episode. Buffy in a nighty trying to seduce xander? Far less so, because it required some extra contrived steps to reach that point. Instead of buffy just walking up and saying she wants him, she runs home, gets dressed in sexy undies, pulls on a large coat, then runs out to meet him. Way more involved to arrange than xander climbing out of a pool when he is investigating the swim team. At least then you can say, "Of COURSE he is going to be wearing a speedo. He is on the swim team! Duh." But, "Of course she is going to be wearing lingerie, he cast a love spell! Duh." Yeah, that doesnt work as obviously. Its not impossible, but it is more unlikely than the swim team one.

I don't see this as really fanservice though. This was specifically needed by the plot of the episode. She only had lingerie on because they couldn't have her naked under the coat on network television (which might have been more realistic considering the power of that love spell). Xander in a speedo in and of itself is also not fanservice. The slow motion coming out of the water bit is certainly MORE fanservicey, though there was a point to that too since it was showing that Cordelia really was attracted to him.

It just feels like fanservice is the gratuitous use of sexuality for no other reason. The sex during exposition on Game of Throne? The lesbians going at it in the first season of Boss for some reason? Fanservice. As stated Denarys' sex scenes (some of them at least) are used to properly further the plot so I wouldn't consider those ones fanservice.

[Das Platyvark]

I'm usually just sort of weirded out, especially when it really doesn't fit the context. If I wanted pornography, I have the internet. The most glaring example is in things like, say, BSG and Firefly. I could deal with the more intimate scenes when they actually worked, i.e. Simon and Kaylee in the BIG DAMN MOVIE or Starbuck & Lee's various exploits, but things like Inara and her clients rarely served any particular purpose besides being a very embarrassing thing to be watching when someone walks into the room.

[Traab]

Originally Posted by Chen

I don't see this as really fanservice though. This was specifically needed by the plot of the episode. She only had lingerie on because they couldn't have her naked under the coat on network television (which might have been more realistic considering the power of that love spell). Xander in a speedo in and of itself is also not fanservice. The slow motion coming out of the water bit is certainly MORE fanservicey, though there was a point to that too since it was showing that Cordelia really was attracted to him.

It just feels like fanservice is the gratuitous use of sexuality for no other reason. The sex during exposition on Game of Throne? The lesbians going at it in the first season of Boss for some reason? Fanservice. As stated Denarys' sex scenes (some of them at least) are used to properly further the plot so I wouldn't consider those ones fanservice.

Oh I agree it wasnt pure fanservice, as in the context it was done it did make some sense, but my point was just that it was a bit more clearly fanservice, if only because it required a bit more of a stretch for that event to happen. Not a huge stretch, but more of one. Both events were fanservice in that they showed us something that wasnt strictly speaking necessary, but it wasnt gratuitous because it actually fit in the scene.

[ThunderCat]

Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey

About fanservice for women:

"Look at me. Now look ar your man. Now back at me." ...

Originally Posted by warty goblin

I don't know if it does anything for women or men who are into men, but as a straight man I can watch an awful lot of Jason Mamoa as Khal Drogo. Doesn't do anything for me sexually, but my god he's a beautiful man...

Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon

Jhonny Depp and Hugh Jackman are living female fanservice.

It's telling that most of the examples of fanservice for men include things like armours with cleavage, bikinis in situations where bikinis make no sense, and contrived, implausible panty shots, but whenever the topic shifts to fanservice to women, the first examples people think of seem be no more than than the mere presence of an attractive man, with no mention of whether he's implausibly dressed or shown from improbable angles.

Originally Posted by Kitten Champion

In the end, he ends up burying most of his preconceptions which an average modern-day Westerner labours under. He comes to realize that he -- wearing only a largely a loin cloth, head scarf. and sandals while wielding a giant phallic sword -- is probably not that different from the skimpy clothes women are expected to tie themselves into.

Do average modern-day westerners really harbour such preconceptions? Outside of certain very religious and conservative societies, I have actually never seen a single example of anyone having anything against skimpy clothing in itself, not even the most ardent fanservice hater. I have seen plenty of people accuse others of harbouring these preconceptions, or simply assume that they do, but I haven't actually seen them expressed, especially not in regards to fanservice.

Originally Posted by Kitten Champion

I've encounter lots of female fanservice, the modern urban fantasy market is chock full of it. Mostly they make me want to hit the female protagonist for getting massively off-track.

Could you give some examples? Especially some visual ones (easier to look up)?

[warty goblin]

Originally Posted by ThunderCat

It's telling that most of the examples of fanservice for men include things like armours with cleavage, bikinis in situations where bikinis make no sense, and contrived, implausible panty shots, but whenever the topic shifts to fanservice to women, the first examples people think of seem be no more than than the mere presence of an attractive man, with no mention of whether he's implausibly dressed or shown from improbable angles.

Not really. I like looking at Jason Mamoa because he's aesthetically pleasing. There's nothing sexual going on, so weird costumes or camera angles to amplify sexual characteristics don't do anything to make him more pretty.

[Kitten Champion]

Originally Posted by ThunderCat

Do average modern-day westerners really harbour such preconceptions? Outside of certain very religious and conservative societies, I have actually never seen a single example of anyone having anything against skimpy clothing in itself, not even the most ardent fanservice hater. I have seen plenty of people accuse others of harbouring these preconceptions, or simply assume that they do, but I haven't actually seen them expressed, especially not in regards to fanservice.

The writer's intention was to poke at the eggregious sexuality in Sword and Sorcery -- "skimpy" as in exotic sex slave/harem girl fantasy skimpy. As to your broader point, yes, I think we do. Perhaps not against fiction, but women who dress provocatively do have social mores working against them. The fact that the fashion in this fantasy world is highly sexualized and women generally servile was an affront to his decency. Largely because women have very little control over any aspects of their lives, this simply was another facet.

Originally Posted by ThunderCat

Could you give some examples? Especially some visual ones (easier to look up)?

Most of my examples would be literary, you can generally spot them at your local bookstore for having a well-developed muscular chest on the cover or of a sexy, strong looking woman in a dramatic pose. Not all of them are bad, but they know their target audience pretty well and not being a romantic person myself it can get tedious. I'm talking dozens of series that span over 5-6 books, most of modern Urban Fantasy is aimed towards women now -- of what age group specifically I couldn't tell you.

For visual examples, the vampire craze on television/movies is deeply fan service-y. Twilight is the most famous, but there are many copies, and they have a plan.

[Traab]

Maybe the reason why there seem to be less examples of female fanservice pics is because female fanservice is less about sweaty musclemen in odd positions than it is about the emotional content? Sort of like how alot of the vamp stuff out there is about the dark broody vamps who are eternally lonely and need some good woman to comfort them or whatever the hell the premise is. Their fanservice is less visual and more mental/emotional. That and its a lot harder to do panty shots for men, unless you are dealing with a lot of scottish highlanders. I mean, you can only have so many scenes involving the beefcake having to fight his way out of the shower/bedroom before it gets silly. And other than stuff like that, the best you will get is shirtless sweaty guys wearing tight pants. ("Yesh toight like a tiger!")

[Karoht]

Four words for you.
Kilts and Leaf Blowers.
Oh Jennie Breedan, what madness have you inflicted upon the world in your years?