Metal Thread VII: The Mosh Pit Don't Start 'Til We Walk In

[grimbold]

comrade

that is awesome



in other news
http://www.metalsucks.net/2012/11/14...-cover-mayhem/
OH MY GOD YES

[Feytalist]

Accidentally listened to some In Flames again last night. I had forgotten how good their earlier stuff actually is. Whoracle is quite excellent.

Maybe I was just in the mood.

[AllIHaveIsCrunk]

Now what the hell is blackgaze? Isn't black metal and the various fractal subgenres and sub-subgenres convoluted and labyrinthine enough without adding shoegaze to the gene pool? Can't we have Melodic Black Metal with low pitched vocals or Atmospheric Black Metal with a semi-melodic focus? This entire thing is giving me a headache.

And now people are talking about blackgrass? Oh to hell with it. Let's JJ Abrams this mess and reboot the whole thing. Alright guys, all metal is now "Heavy Metal" and we'll sort out the rest as we go along. First level subgenres will be autoapproved but second level subgenres and fusions will have to be cleared with the board. Third level subgenres will be punishable by death. Should deter horrible shambling creations like "Atmospheric Blackened Death Metal".

[Faulty]

I refuse to believe blackgaze is a thing. At best it's just shoegaze with black metal vocals which IMO doesn't change the genre. It'd be like saying instrumental hip-hop isn't hip-hop because there's no rapping.

[Nameless]

The term "Blackgaze" only came about because artists started creating Shoegaze with elements from Black Metal. So, naturally, people started saying "Black Metal Shoegaze" as an easy way to describe it. Note that "Black Metal" comes before "Shoegaze" instead of the other way around. That's because it's Shoegaze, not Black Metal. I guess "Blackgaze" just came about because it's easier to say then "Black Metal Shoegaze". Kind of like how people say "Melodeath Metal" instead of "Melodic Death Metal".

[Faulty]

I don't like calling melodeath "melodic death metal" because that insinuates that it's real death metal. lolz

[Moff Chumley]

"Blackgaze" has always cracked me up because it's applying metal naming conventions to what is fundamentally an offshoot of indie rock. No one calls The Telescopes noisegaze, no one calls Astrobrite shoepop. Even though both bands are farther from the shoegaze paradigm than most of the blackgaze I've heard. From a shoegaze point of view, Alcest and the like are just shoegaze.

[RebelRogue]

Speaking of Alcest, I saw them live as support for Katatonia the other day. Good shows, both of them. Alcest's mix could have been slightly better I think - the drums were a bit too punchy and the guitars too low, at least for the mellower parts. But that's minor details.

[godspit]

I just call it "Blackened Shoegaze". I agree with Faulty though, just because it's shoegaze with black metal elements it doesn't mean it's nessessarily black metal. Same thing goes with blackened death metal in my "oh so humble" opinion.

Edit: Found these guys a couple of weeks ago and they're pretty awesome

[Moff Chumley]

Niegecore also works.

Fun fact, if you google niegecore one of the top results is one of my posts from earlier in the thread.

[JoshL]

I'm also for just calling Alcest shoegazer, and I love them very much. Genres for bands are only really good for marketing anyway. I can see why metal fans might not be ready to associate with, say, Slowdive fans, so a gradual gateway drug as it were might not be a bad thing.

That said, a lot of the metal influenced shoegaze and post-metal (Jesu, Isis, Sun O))), etc) is what got me listening to more metal these days anyway. Sleep's "Dopesmoker" really blew my mind when I heard it.

[AllIHaveIsCrunk]

It's not really about blackgaze specifically, it's about the whole system, man. It's the fact that every single nichey fusion or experimentation seems to be getting its own subgenre these days. Especially frustrating for metal given what a difficult to navigate behemoth it already was.

[godspit]

It's an eventuality to pretty much everything. A lot of mediums (music genres, book genres, movie genres, etc. etc.) have the same problem. Not to say your point isn't valid though, it can be head-ache inducing getting all the sub-genres straight.

[AllIHaveIsCrunk]

Originally Posted by godspit

It's an eventuality to pretty much everything. A lot of mediums (music genres, book genres, movie genres, etc. etc.) have the same problem. Not to say your point isn't valid though, it can be head-ache inducing getting all the sub-genres straight.

Yeah and I can tolerate it to an extent but in my experience metal has it worse than anything else. That's why I'm kicking up a fuss here of all places.

[aethernox]

Originally Posted by AllIHaveIsCrunk

Yeah and I can tolerate it to an extent but in my experience metal has it worse than anything else. That's why I'm kicking up a fuss here of all places.

I would be inclined to disagree. Perhaps you're just more familiar with metal, so it seems more pronounced? Most genres open up considerably once you immerse yourself in them, and I don't think that metal is particularly more diverse than most. It definitely doesn't strike me as being larger than the electronica supergenre.

[grimbold]

the opener of the show i saw last night
has thing song called "I hate you"
last time i saw them live
the singer was just running around the pit
because it was a smaller venue
this time he was leaning over into the pit
screaming I HAAAATE YOUUUUU
into everyones face
SO METAL
especialy when the dude is like 6 inches off your face
i had a good time


expect a full review forthwith

[AllIHaveIsCrunk]

Originally Posted by aethernox

I would be inclined to disagree. Perhaps you're just more familiar with metal, so it seems more pronounced? Most genres open up considerably once you immerse yourself in them, and I don't think that metal is particularly more diverse than most. It definitely doesn't strike me as being larger than the electronica supergenre.

Aside from the various bastard children of chillwave and dubstep I gotta say I think electronica has it pretty easy. I can explain the genres and subgenres of electronica to a layman, no problem, but with metal we're going to run into some speed bumps.

[JoshL]

Electronic music is pretty fragmented too (language warning on both some of the audio samples and description...I mean, this is a metal thread, but better safe than sorry)

Also, bear in mind this chart is almost 10 years old now, and doesn't include most of what electroncia is these days, as you mentioned. For me, the particular lack is doomcore (take a dark ambient album and throw in some mid-tempo hardcore beats). He has that listed as another name for terrorcore, but it's become something different (and I think better). And even at the time, he didn't really bother with the various subgenres of noise. Though, to be fair, those of us who are noise fans already know that.

It'd be fun to see someone do a similar chart breaking down metal in the same way (my knowledge is not extensive enough to attempt that)

[grimbold]

Originally Posted by AllIHaveIsCrunk

Aside from the various bastard children of chillwave and dubstep I gotta say I think electronica has it pretty easy. I can explain the genres and subgenres of electronica to a layman, no problem, but with metal we're going to run into some speed bumps.

isn't that more because of the fact that people are more used to electro so its easier to get it across. Whereas with metal, if they know about death growls you're lucky...

[Makensha]

Originally Posted by grimbold

isn't that more because of the fact that people are more used to electro so its easier to get it across. Whereas with metal, if they know about death growls you're lucky...

If they know what "growling" is and do not call it "screaming" you're lucky...

Calling it a "death growl" is virtually a random occurrence.

[Moff Chumley]

Originally Posted by AllIHaveIsCrunk

Aside from the various bastard children of chillwave and dubstep I gotta say I think electronica has it pretty easy. I can explain the genres and subgenres of electronica to a layman, no problem, but with metal we're going to run into some speed bumps.

There are just as many bizarre subsubsubgenres and weird fusion genres in electronic music as there are in metal, if not more.

Originally Posted by grimbold

isn't that more because of the fact that people are more used to electro so its easier to get it across. Whereas with metal, if they know about death growls you're lucky...

I completely beg to differ. If you walk down the street and ask people at random to elucidate the difference between house, techno, and trance, and then walk down a different street and inquire vis a vis death, doom, and black metal, I imagine you'll get pretty similar results.

Originally Posted by JoshL

I can see why metal fans might not be ready to associate with, say, Slowdive fans, so a gradual gateway drug as it were might not be a bad thing.

Again, I disagree. I know metal has more of a tradition of purism than most genres, and your average Slowdive fan might not have a ton in common with your average metalhead, but that shouldn't matter. A lot of the shoegaze fans I know, both of us (based on your posts in this thread) included, love stoner metal and drone metal. We're totally fine with claiming we like some metal, why do metalheads have to insist Alcest is anything other than shoegaze?

Originally Posted by JoshL

That said, a lot of the metal influenced shoegaze and post-metal (Jesu, Isis, Sun O))), etc) is what got me listening to more metal these days anyway. Sleep's "Dopesmoker" really blew my mind when I heard it.

I think the difference between the bands you mentioned, especially Sleep, as opposed to a band like Alcest, is that all of them are from well within the metal tradition. They may borrow elements from post-rock and drone rock, but they're fundamentally all metal bands.

[AllIHaveIsCrunk]

Originally Posted by Moff Chumley

There are just as many bizarre subsubsubgenres and weird fusion genres in electronic music as there are in metal, if not more.

Maybe it's just because I like electronica more (and thus know more about it) or maybe it's the kind of music people I hang out with but, once again, it's just a cinch for me to navigate. It's big, sure, but it's not as labyrinthine. You get the occasional bizarre fusion here and there but I don't discover those with nearly as much frequency as I pick up some new metal term, which happens practically every day.

Originally Posted by grimbold

isn't that more because of the fact that people are more used to electro so its easier to get it across. Whereas with metal, if they know about death growls you're lucky...

I wouldn't get them to listen to it. In this hypothetical scenario I would merely be explaining the genres to them. No growling or screaming required.

[Faulty]

Originally Posted by JoshL

Electronic music is pretty fragmented too (language warning on both some of the audio samples and description...I mean, this is a metal thread, but better safe than sorry)

I love that site. I had totally forgotten about it.

Anyway, all language is metaphorical as is so I don't see how subsubgenres and such can hurt anymore than genres themselves, especially those such as doom or black metal, which are so internally varied it's stupid.

[Killer Angel]

Originally Posted by AllIHaveIsCrunk

It's not really about blackgaze specifically, it's about the whole system, man. It's the fact that every single nichey fusion or experimentation seems to be getting its own subgenre these days.

This isn't limited to HM, but yeah.
Excessive characterizations and divisions of sub-genres is kinda pointless... sometime, it's like it's done just for the sake of it, not for a real need.

[cleric_of_BANJO]

Originally Posted by Killer Angel

This isn't limited to HM, but yeah.
Excessive characterizations and divisions of sub-genres is kinda pointless... sometime, it's like it's done just for the sake of it, not for a real need.

Except sometimes, it just gives you a better idea of what you're talking about. If I wanted to say I like bands like alcest, and I wasn't allowed to use the term blackgaze (or any variation thereof), then I would just say I like shoegaze. Except, since I don't listen to any other shoegaze, I would be giving people a wrong idea of what my taste in music is.

Subgenres may be complicated, but accuracy is still important. I don't think you could do a band like Moonsorrow justice by describing them as black metal, or as folk metal, or as melodic metal. You need a mix of those terms, if only because the music itself is a mix of those styles. I don't mind subgenres; if used properly, they can steer you away from misunderstandings, and, more importantly, from misrepresenting yourself and the bands you like.

[Feytalist]

No-one has mentioned Jari yet? Heh, I'm surprised.

I'm fine with an overabundance of subgenres. Music isn't something that is easily catagorised in any case. Even something as obsessed with, er... purity as metal, usually. It does get a bit much when you lay on modifier after modifier, but accuracy is never really a bad thing. Usually. Probably.

[Killer Angel]

Originally Posted by cleric_of_BANJO

Except sometimes, it just gives you a better idea of what you're talking about. If I wanted to say I like bands like alcest, and I wasn't allowed to use the term blackgaze (or any variation thereof), then I would just say I like shoegaze. Except, since I don't listen to any other shoegaze, I would be giving people a wrong idea of what my taste in music is.

Subgenres may be complicated, but accuracy is still important. I don't think you could do a band like Moonsorrow justice by describing them as black metal, or as folk metal, or as melodic metal. You need a mix of those terms, if only because the music itself is a mix of those styles. I don't mind subgenres; if used properly, they can steer you away from misunderstandings, and, more importantly, from misrepresenting yourself and the bands you like.

That's true, but, unless you're discussing with someone with your level of knowledge, you're just tossing around terms. Sometime, even if you have at disposal a precise sub-genre, if you want to describe the vibe of a band, it's better to make a reference to a greater genre, adding some descriptive element.

That said, enjoy some Skyforger.

[grimbold]

Originally Posted by Moff Chumley

I completely beg to differ. If you walk down the street and ask people at random to elucidate the difference between house, techno, and trance, and then walk down a different street and inquire vis a vis death, doom, and black metal, I imagine you'll get pretty similar results.

eh... maybe its just europe but a lot of people seem to know what house techno and trance are. And those subgenres are much more popular overall too. I mean, in general, i've noticed that genre tags on music websites are more likely to have seperate tags for house, techno and trance than for death doom and black metal.

Again, i think this might must be because electric music is so much more popular
but i really have to differ with you there moff...
wanna talk it out on facebook?

[Moff Chumley]

Originally Posted by grimbold

eh... maybe its just europe but a lot of people seem to know what house techno and trance are

That's definitely a European thing, I don't think there's a real techno scene in America and there hasn't been for a while. Trance still gets played, but it's still pretty niche. And house is just mislabeled and misrepresented constantly.

Originally Posted by grimbold

And those subgenres are much more popular overall too. I mean, in general, i've noticed that genre tags on music websites are more likely to have seperate tags for house, techno and trance than for death doom and black metal.

Last.fm doesn't really agree.
Techno-320,000 tags (many or most, probably inaccurate)
Death Metal-635,00 tags
Trance-381,000 tags
Black Metal-749,000 tags
House-355,000 tags
Doom Metal-268,000 tags

Make of that what you will. There are perhaps more people vaguely familiar with electronic subgenres than metal, but if we're discussing folks with more than a passing familiarity (the sorts that'd be able to identify subgenres and whatnot), it's been my experience that metal's pretty well exposed. I can't help but observe that metal's the only genre that's sustained multiple threads on this forum; the multiple attempts we've had at electronic threads fizzled out after a few pages. Probably says more about this forum's demographics than anything else, but I thought it was worth observing.

Originally Posted by cleric_of_BANJO

Except sometimes, it just gives you a better idea of what you're talking about. If I wanted to say I like bands like alcest, and I wasn't allowed to use the term blackgaze (or any variation thereof), then I would just say I like shoegaze. Except, since I don't listen to any other shoegaze, I would be giving people a wrong idea of what my taste in music is.

Subgenres may be complicated, but accuracy is still important. I don't think you could do a band like Moonsorrow justice by describing them as black metal, or as folk metal, or as melodic metal. You need a mix of those terms, if only because the music itself is a mix of those styles. I don't mind subgenres; if used properly, they can steer you away from misunderstandings, and, more importantly, from misrepresenting yourself and the bands you like.

I think the problem there is a band like Moonsorrow (I'll take your word for it) isn't well-represented by a simple genre tag like black metal, but Alcest and the like are completely well represented by the shoegaze label.
Also, if you like Alcest and similar, why not check out more shoegaze? If you'd like some recommendations feel free to shoot me a PM, I'd like to think I've built a pretty sizable collection by now.

[Feytalist]

So in about a week's time the new Finsterforst album is coming out.

This is awesome, because we always need more accordions. Also it's about damn time.