Fractional BAB?Saves & PRC's

[Diarmuid]

If you're using the fractional system, does that also apply to PRC based BAB/Save progression, or only from base classes?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It would apply to all sources of base attack bonuses and base save bonuses, whether from base classes, prestige classes, racial hit dice, etc.

[Alabenson]

It applies to all classes, including PRCs.

[Diarmuid]

I've always had a problem trying to actually implement Fractional BAB & Saves.

I like to think I'm a smart guy, but somewhere the logic and numbers just get away from me.

Current example is I'm trying to help a friend with his character for a RL game. He's got a Wiz 3/Clr 3/MT 9 (DM doesnt allow early entry shenanigans I guess).

Putting the build itself aside I'm trying to figure out the BAB/Saves.

Class BAB Fort Ref Will
Wizard Poor Poor Poor Good
Cleric Avg Good Poor Good
MT Poor Poor Poor Good

His first level was in Cleric. Looking at the chart in Unearthed Arcana I come up with the following values:

Class BAB Fort Ref Will
Wizard 1.5 1 1 3.5
Cleric 2.25 3.5 1 3.5
MT 4.5 3 3 6.5
Totals 8.25 7.5 5 13.5

Now, I'm imagining that for non character level 1, first class levels you would shave 2 points from the "Level 1" good save value, so that would bring the Will save total down to 9.5.

Have I got that right?

[Answerer]

Regardless of whether or not you use the variant, a class's base saves are as follows:

Good save: +(2+classLevel/2).

Poor save: +(classLevel/3).

Under the usual system, a multiclass character rounds each class down, and then adds them together:

floor(class1Save)+floor(class2Save)+floor(class3Sa ve)

Under the fractional system, you add them together and then round down:

floor(class1Save+class2Save+class3Save)

So, for instance, a Wizard has a good Will save, and a poor Fort and Ref saves, while a Bard has a good Ref and Will save, and a poor Fort save.

Consider a Bard 4/Wizard 5:

Bard 4 has 1 1/3 Fort, 4 Ref, 4 Will.

Wizard 5 has 1 2/3 Fort, 1 2/3 Ref, 4 1/2 Will.

Under the usual system, you round these down first:

Fort: 1 1/3->1, 1 2/3->1, => 1+1=2
Ref: 4->4, 1 2/3->1, => 4+1=5
Will: 4->4, 4 1/2->4, => 4+4=8

Under the factional variant, you round down last:

Fort: (1 1/3)+(1 2/3)=2 3/3=3->3
Ref: (4)+(1 2/3)=5 2/3->5
Will: (4)+(4 1/2)=8 1/2->8

In this example, the only difference is in the value of the Fort save.

[Absol197]

Originally Posted by Diarmuid

I've always had a problem trying to actually implement Fractional BAB & Saves.

I like to think I'm a smart guy, but somewhere the logic and numbers just get away from me.

Current example is I'm trying to help a friend with his character for a RL game. He's got a Wiz 3/Clr 3/MT 9 (DM doesnt allow early entry shenanigans I guess).

Putting the build itself aside I'm trying to figure out the BAB/Saves.

Class BAB Fort Ref Will
Wizard Poor Poor Poor Good
Cleric Avg Good Poor Good
MT Poor Poor Poor Good

His first level was in Cleric. Looking at the chart in Unearthed Arcana I come up with the following values:

Class BAB Fort Ref Will
Wizard 1.5 1 1 3.5
Cleric 2.25 3.5 1 3.5
MT 4.5 3 3 6.5
Totals 8.25 7.5 5 13.5

Now, I'm imagining that for non character level 1, first class levels you would shave 2 points from the "Level 1" good save value, so that would bring the Will save total down to 9.5.

Have I got that right?

There's a way I think about this that makes it rather easy (for me, at least): If multiple classes have the same level of bonus for a particular bonus (BAB, Fort, Ref, or Will), add the levels of those classes together, then see what the bonus would be for a single class character of that level.

For instance, a Wiz 3/Sor6/Ultimate Magus 7 to pick a random combination would have the BAB, Fort, Ref and Will of a 17th level character, because they all use the same progression.

For your example, the wizard and mystic theurge levels are the same for everything, so add them together. The cleric is the same for Will and Reflex saves, so so far you have a Good 15 for Will and Ref, and a Poor 12 for BAB and Fort.

That makes it BAB +6, Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +9.

Cleric 3 is the odd man out on BAB and Fort: BAB +2.25 and Fort +3.5.

That makes your total: BAB +8, Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +9.

Hopefully that makes sense !


~Phoenix~

[The Random NPC]

Originally Posted by Absol197

There's a way I think about this that makes it rather easy (for me, at least): If multiple classes have the same level of bonus for a particular bonus (BAB, Fort, Ref, or Will), add the levels of those classes together, then see what the bonus would be for a single class character of that level.

For instance, a Wiz 3/Sor6/Ultimate Magus 7 to pick a random combination would have the BAB, Fort, Ref and Will of a 17th level character, because they all use the same progression.

That isn't entirely true, a Wiz 3/Sor6/Ultimate Magus 7 doesn't have the same Will save of a 17th level character, because he gets +2 from the first level of Sorcerer and +2 from the first level of Ultimate Magus.

[Absol197]

Originally Posted by The Random NPC

That isn't entirely true, a Wiz 3/Sor6/Ultimate Magus 7 doesn't have the same Will save of a 17th level character, because he gets +2 from the first level of Sorcerer and +2 from the first level of Ultimate Magus.

To keep saves from getting too out of hand, I typically say that you can only get the +2 bonus from having a good save once to any particular save. So instead of getting a +4 higher than a straight Wiz 17 just because of multiclassing, the character stays even with them.

Pathfinder does this, too, with prestige classes not offering that +2 bonus at 1st level, even on your good saves.

[The Random NPC]

Originally Posted by Absol197

To keep saves from getting too out of hand, I typically say that you can only get the +2 bonus from having a good save once to any particular save. So instead of getting a +4 higher than a straight Wiz 17 just because of multiclassing, the character stays even with them.

Pathfinder does this, too, with prestige classes not offering that +2 bonus at 1st level, even on your good saves.

While a good house-rule, the RAW is that you are +4 higher. I don't know if it is the same in Pathfinder, do you also not get the +2 from multiclassing?