Fanservice, Opinions?

[Tengu_temp]

Originally Posted by Traab

Maybe the reason why there seem to be less examples of female fanservice pics is because female fanservice is less about sweaty musclemen in odd positions than it is about the emotional content?

No, it's mostly because most media panders to men and not women.

[Zrak]

Originally Posted by ThunderCat

It's telling that most of the examples of fanservice for men include things like armours with cleavage, bikinis in situations where bikinis make no sense, and contrived, implausible panty shots, but whenever the topic shifts to fanservice to women, the first examples people think of seem be no more than than the mere presence of an attractive man, with no mention of whether he's implausibly dressed or shown from improbable angles.

I counter that Matthew McConaughey being in a movie at all is basically one long series of improbable angles designed to provide fanservice. I defy anyone to find another reason why he's ever been allowed in a movie, let alone been paid to be in one.
More seriously, the oeuvres of guys like Channing Tatum, Ashton Kutcher, Ryan Reynolds, &c. are full of contrived scenes clearly included to provide fanservice. I mean, it's not weird camera angles (since, as someone said, that would really only apply with kilts), but every time a guy with ridiculous abs takes his shirt off, think if there was really any reason for him to take his shirt off. Why is Ashton Kutcher having the conversation from a shower? How did Ryan Reynolds even get naked again? Does Matthew McConaughey get fired if he wears a shirt a set or something? Is there a trailer for the movie that doesn't feature the male lead in some state of undress? In other words, rather than being a scene featured for any purpose in the plot, the actor disrobes as a marketing tool to attract another demographic to the movie with sex.
Most media panders to anyone who has money. It's simply made by men who don't really understand how to pander to women, so its opinions to direct fanservice at those attracted to men are even more pathetically inept than its attempt to direct at those attracted to women. Some marketing director, somewhere, is absolutely certain buff, middle-aged dudes are the only reason any women saw The Expendables.

[Themrys]

Originally Posted by Kato

Well, in his defense, he is a straight male as far as I know.
No matter how hard I tried I don't think I could write down a way to describe a man in a way that a woman would feel... aroused. Or interested. Whatever word one would prefer. Okay, he is a professional writer but still. I don't think it is easy for a man to capture what really attracts a woman and the other way round.

He could just stop to describe the thoughts of his female characters in such an implausible way as "Her small breasts moved freely under the vest" or such. He could to that bit of research he would need to find out that, no, women don't usually think about their breasts, and if they do, it's probably because they notice a man looking at them.
And of course research the fact that the percentage of women who are heteroromantic, heterosexual and homosexual is significantly lower than he seems to think..and therefore, hetero women don't usually have sex with each other. He just needs to get his mind wrapped around the fact that no, just because he likes to have sex with women, not everyone wants it.


@Traab: And men have no emotions, or what?
Also, if we define fanservice as something that's unnecessarily stuffed in and has no relevance to the plot, emotions cannot be fanservice.

Originally Posted by Surrealistik

That's a pretty chilling definition of sexy.

Chilling?

Hey, that's so sexy even I, a heterosexual woman, can see how sexy it is.

[McStabbington]

. . .You do realize the only instance of that in his books is a woman driven axe-crazy by years of parental neglect and spousal abuse before being handed the keys to a kingdom as big as South America, right? I mean, I'm not going to say there wasn't some contrivance in that subplot, but Cersei is not exactly a posterchild for well-adjusted anything, sexual or no. More than anything, I read it less as fanservice than a sign of her continued ethical disintigration, since her ethos has always been heteronormative.

She's attacking the system, except in a way that's not particularly well-thought out. Which is not exactly out of Cersei's character.

[Water_Bear]

Originally Posted by Themrys

Also, if we define fanservice as something that's unnecessarily stuffed in and has no relevance to the plot, emotions cannot be fanservice.

Emotion isn't an unqualified good thing, and certainly isn't always plot relevant. Look at pretty much any commonly-derided bad romance plot; the characters don't often lack emotion, rather they have more emotion than is called for and express it unrealistically. Badly done romance is really soul-incineratingly awful, and even good romance rarely adds to a work IMO.

But yeah, the Women = Romance, Men = Porn thing is super overplayed. As much as I'd love to find someone to pin it on, intrusive romance subplots aren't the fault of any one demographic. Bad taste knows no gender.

Originally Posted by Themrys

Chilling?

Hey, that's so sexy even I, a heterosexual woman, can see how sexy it is.

Well, certainly sounds empowering and I love seeing that kind of character in media, but sexy? I've heard everyone's sexier in red, but I'm pretty sure they weren't thinking of intestines when they came up with the idea.

[Traab]

Badly done romance is really soul-incineratingly awful,

Bah, if thats the case, then explain harlequinn romance novels! Seriously, I dont know how they managed to take 4 stories and write 4000 books based off of them.

[Water_Bear]

Originally Posted by Traab

Bah, if thats the case, then explain harlequinn romance novels! Seriously, I dont know how they managed to take 4 stories and write 4000 books based off of them.

Yeah, that's pretty deep into "AAAAAH!! MY SOUL IT IS BURNING!!!" territory for me. I like romance as a subtle flavoring but those kinds of books are like someone holding me down and stuffing fist-fulls of cinnamon down my throat. Not that I don't enjoy cinnamon, but too much of it and it becomes a deadly poison. Ironically enough, one whose symptoms include both vomiting and choking.

[Surrealistik]

Originally Posted by Themrys

Chilling?

Hey, that's so sexy even I, a heterosexual woman, can see how sexy it is.

If you find a woman viscerally mutilating men and getting spattered with their blood and gore to be attractive, fine; for me it's disturbing and repugnant.

[Susano-wo]

Originally Posted by A Rainy Knight

Mm, whether it feels contrived or not matters. In my opinion, enjoyable fanservice happens when it's clearly a part of the scene no matter how you look at it (Protagonist accidentally walks in on Love Interest in the shower, hilarity ensues), and irritating fanservice happens when it's tacked onto a scene where it's not immediately apparent that it should be there (Fully-clothed Love Interest is talking to Protagonist on the phone while laying on the sofa; camera cuts to an upskirt).

This and what Serpentine said. (also, there is a scene like that in one of the early Street Fighter Animateds with Chun-Li getting attacked by Vega(or Balrog if you prefer the original name assignments) after getting out of the shower, though I think it was played for a lot of titillation. Don't recall, though)

[Dienekes]

Originally Posted by Themrys

He could just stop to describe the thoughts of his female characters in such an implausible way as "Her small breasts moved freely under the vest" or such. He could to that bit of research he would need to find out that, no, women don't usually think about their breasts, and if they do, it's probably because they notice a man looking at them.
And of course research the fact that the percentage of women who are heteroromantic, heterosexual and homosexual is significantly lower than he seems to think..and therefore, hetero women don't usually have sex with each other. He just needs to get his mind wrapped around the fact that no, just because he likes to have sex with women, not everyone wants it.

Ehh, I've heard girls talk about how annoying it is to go running without a sports bra on. So having a girl feel their breasts moving about doesn't seem that weird to me. Course I don't have a pair of them myself so all I got is second hand knowledge here.

In any case, yeah, sometimes old GRRM can write a bad line like that. But let's tally here. You ladies got "her breasts moved freely" us guys had "fat pink mast." I say you come out ahead here.

Chilling?

Hey, that's so sexy even I, a heterosexual woman, can see how sexy it is.

You ever seen someone get splashed with blood as Serps describes? It doesn't matter who you are, or how attractive you might be. It ain't sexy.

Originally Posted by Water_Bear

Badly done romance is really soul-incineratingly awful, and even good romance rarely adds to a work IMO.

But yeah, the Women = Romance, Men = Porn thing is super overplayed. As much as I'd love to find someone to pin it on, intrusive romance subplots aren't the fault of any one demographic. Bad taste knows no gender.

I agree. I say we should remove all romantic subplots from media.

I'm only half joking here, I despise almost all romantic subplots. I also want to punch whoever it was that decided that no matter what the genre, media, or story there needs to be some form of romance going on. It's boring and unnecessary.

[warty goblin]

Originally Posted by Traab

Bah, if thats the case, then explain harlequinn romance novels! Seriously, I dont know how they managed to take 4 stories and write 4000 books based off of them.

So totally unlike fantasy which managed to take four stories and write 4000 trilogies quartets quintets sextets cycles based off them?

The primary purpose of genre fiction is to fulfill genre requirements. Let he who is without plucky peasant lads destined to defeat the darkness and rule the kingdom cast the first stone. Only after sensually tearing their shirt off in a fit of animal passion. Obviously.

[Kitten Champion]

Melodramatic sexual tension, rather than romance, seems to be the key to fanservice directed towards women. Romance typically has an established plot, with a progression leading to a climax and formal resolution, and can be beautiful. Melodramatic sexual tension is played around with ad nausea just to get a rise out of the reader/viewer, and is always left open-ended for as long as humanly possible... if it is ever resolved.

I don't mind so much in comedies, it's when they interject it into a drama that I've come to loath it. Particularly one where other priorities are more obviously important.

[Darth Xena]

Originally Posted by Traab

So, all that rambling done, what do you guys and gals think? Is there a time when fanservice gets in the way or is inappropriate? Or is it pretty much always, "Boobies/Beefcake YAY!"

It's always Boobies and Beefcake......

[Avilan the Grey]

What bothers me with fanservice is the double standards. On the other hand double standars bother me everywhere they pop up.

I want MORE for-female fanservce. Not less fanservice for males. I want full frontal male nudity to be as accepted as full frontal female nudity (and bare behind nudity as well, of course).

And so forth. Of course, I am weird.

[Sith_Happens]

After finally watching Gurren Lagann, I can't help but think that it fits into this discussion somehow.

*cough*Yoko*cough*
*cough*probablyalsoKamina*cough*

[Traab]

Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey

What bothers me with fanservice is the double standards. On the other hand double standars bother me everywhere they pop up.

I want MORE for-female fanservce. Not less fanservice for males. I want full frontal male nudity to be as accepted as full frontal female nudity (and bare behind nudity as well, of course).

And so forth. Of course, I am weird.

Too be fair, I dont think full frontal nudity is very common for women. The genital area is pretty much always obscured somehow, male or female. So its really just topless frontal shots, which are very common for men and women, though considered to be way more of a big deal in american culture at least, for women. And there have been almost as many bare male butts over the years as female. There was a cop drama show awhile back on regular cable that seemed to have at least one bare male butt every episode, but I cant for the life of me remember what it was. Probably because that was its main draw as an attempt to be "edgy" or whatever.

[ThunderCat]

Originally Posted by warty goblin

Not really. I like looking at Jason Mamoa because he's aesthetically pleasing. There's nothing sexual going on, so weird costumes or camera angles to amplify sexual characteristics don't do anything to make him more pretty.

You brought it up in regards to fanservice for women. What it does for you is irrelevant, the issue is whether or not a man simply being attractive is enough to count as fanservice.

Originally Posted by Zrak

Most media panders to anyone who has money. It's simply made by men who don't really understand how to pander to women, so its opinions to direct fanservice at those attracted to men are even more pathetically inept than its attempt to direct at those attracted to women. Some marketing director, somewhere, is absolutely certain buff, middle-aged dudes are the only reason any women saw The Expendables.

I don't disagree that a lot of men don't get what a lot of women are attracted to, but I don't think the media competition is hard enough, and the money men smart enough, for it to be necessary for the media to cater to anyone who has money. I've heard enough stories about aspiring writers being asked to change their works into something less progressive, because the people in charge were more conservative than the audience. An obvious example is how long it took Lauren Faust to be allowed to create a show for young girls that wasn't horribly stereotyped and deliberately dumped down, because the men in charge were convinced there was no money in it. It's hard to find words for how wrong they were.

Of course, maybe they're right that women are more willing to consume fiction made for men (thus reducing the need to make anything specifically for women), and that men are less tolerant of fanservice for women than vice versa. Women's tolerance towards the Transformers movies and men's utter (and very vocal) hatred of Twilight seems to indicate that might be the case , but I'm not completely convinced.


PS: Watched both The Expendables movies and loved them, despite none of the men really doing anything for me sexually. But I suspect that if/when an Expendables movie with women are made, the instructor will choose to forego actors like Sigourney Weaver and Linda Hamilton because they're getting old (thus completely missing the point), and hire younger and more fanservice friendly actors to appeal to the male demographic

[Sipex]

I understand the concept of fan service, and I'm sure it does it's intended job very well.

However, the only thing fan service has ever done to me is creep my friends out and make me seem like a gigantic pervert.

Me: "Hey guys, this is great show you have to see!"
*queue fanservice on screen*
Them: "Er...*
Me: "Nonono! Ignore that, it's just fan service. The good part comes after."
Them: "Uh-huh."

[Kato]

Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey

I want MORE for-female fanservce. Not less fanservice for males. I want full frontal male nudity to be as accepted as full frontal female nudity (and bare behind nudity as well, of course).

And so forth. Of course, I am weird.

I really couldn't bother less if there was more female-friendly fanservice but full frontal nudity... I don't know. It's not that it's a bad thing but to be honest I don't see the appeal in either, male or female full frontals. There are lots of things I like to see (at a woman) but that just... I guess I'm just weird that way.


But to shortly reiterate on something I said a while ago... the thing about female-friendly fanservice... is a topless male really fanservice? I mean, in contrast to a girl in underwear a male even in just his briefs seems so casual to me, it's not fanservice. I guess it is because I'm male and I can see it all the time but still... you see it so often it never felt like fanservice to me, only when the briefs come off. Or when they are oiled up like in 300.

[Zrak]

Originally Posted by ThunderCat

I don't disagree that a lot of men don't get what a lot of women are attracted to, but I don't think the media competition is hard enough, and the money men smart enough, for it to be necessary for the media to cater to anyone who has money.

I should rephrase my statement to "the media attempts to cater to anyone with money."

Originally Posted by ThunderCat

I've heard enough stories about aspiring writers being asked to change their works into something less progressive, because the people in charge were more conservative than the audience. An obvious example is how long it took Lauren Faust to be allowed to create a show for young girls that wasn't horribly stereotyped and deliberately dumped down, because the men in charge were convinced there was no money in it. It's hard to find words for how wrong they were.

Well, yeah, and there's things like this, too. (The statement was made in the same year as Juno and Waitress.)

Originally Posted by ThunderCat

Of course, maybe they're right that women are more willing to consume fiction made for men (thus reducing the need to make anything specifically for women), that men are less tolerant of fanservice for women than vice versa. Women's tolerance towards the Transformers movies and men's utter (and very vocal) hatred of Twilight seems to indicate that might be the case , but I'm not completely convinced.

Again, they make plenty of movies specifically for women, or at least that they think are specifically for women. It's just, as fundamentally flawed as the idea that dudes like Megan Fox and explosions is, the ideas about the only things that women can and do like are even worse. Again, my point wasn't to defend "fanservice" as somehow equal in any way, so much as to argue that fanservice, regardless of the demographic, is based around some weird Neanderthal vision of culture that hasn't ever really been true.

Originally Posted by ThunderCat

PS: Watched both The Expendables movies and loved them, despite none of the men really doing anything for me sexually. But I suspect that if/when an Expendables movie with women are made, the instructor will choose to forego actors like Sigourney Weaver and Linda Hamilton because they're getting old (thus completely missing the point), and hire younger and more fanservice friendly actors to appeal to the male demographic

Well, yeah, I mean, old dudes are convinced women of all ages find old dudes attractive, but obviously any woman older than their daughers/trophy wives (whichever is lower) is totally gross and should only be in movies where she, like, knits or something. Makes tea, maybe?
Besides, women obviously wouldn't want to see an action movie at all, unless it had sexy (middle-aged) men who are sexy by virtue of their big muscles, while men wouldn't want to see some lame girlie action movie full of lame girls unless it's, like, a Charlie's Angels thing. Men like guns and boobs, women like adaptations of Victorian novels with some guy the focus groups told us is really handsome. Duh.

[Avilan the Grey]

Originally Posted by Kato

But to shortly reiterate on something I said a while ago... the thing about female-friendly fanservice... is a topless male really fanservice? I mean, in contrast to a girl in underwear a male even in just his briefs seems so casual to me, it's not fanservice. I guess it is because I'm male and I can see it all the time but still... you see it so often it never felt like fanservice to me, only when the briefs come off. Or when they are oiled up like in 300.

An attractive male with a bare chest can definitely be fanservice. The problem is that it is not directly comparable to a topless woman, because women's breasts are more erotically charged in our culture. It should be compared to a woman in her underwear (with sexy bra on).