Wizard with Extra Spell and writing in the spellbook

[etrpgb]

If a Wizard take the feat Extra Spell, can she immediately write it in the spellbook?

From RAW I got the feeling she cannot and she must before create a scroll and copy from it...

[Andreaz]

Extra Spell adds to your spells known list, right?
Wizards don't have spells known.

[etrpgb]

It is fairly ridiculous, it would mean that Wizards cannot scribe scrolls... http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Scribe_Scroll

[Arcanist]

Originally Posted by Andreaz

Extra Spell adds to your spells known list, right?
Wizards don't have spells known.

Originally Posted by Extra Spell

You learn an additional spell.
Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd.

Benefit: You learn one additional spell at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast. Thus, a 4th-level sorcerer (maximum spell level 2nd) gains a new 0-level or 1st-level spell known with which to expand her repertoire. For classes such as wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research.

I'd rather not get involved in the Extra spell discussion, but I'll bold the interesting stuff.

[etrpgb]

Oh yeah... and it was the case in the game. The Wizard absolutely wanted a spell, and now it want to write it in the spellbook...

[Suddo]

Extra Spell is one of those by RAW feats people don't allow, because wizards are already so OP.
Technically it wouldn't but the question is what are you worried about? The worst that could happen is that you would have to take the time and money to inscribe it which is pretty low all considering.

Edit: And if the questions is more "can the wizard" the answer is yes as the feat allows you to be able to cast and learn the spell. The only question becomes that you might have to take the effort to actually write it versus what normally happens when you level.

[Andreaz]

Right, so wizards can use it to learn a spell.
What does that mean?

• All uses of "learns a new spell" in the wizard entry refer to writing it in the book, so this feat would probably do that.
• Thus they can't write it from memory.

You use the feat to write the spell down in your book. If that book is gone, you lost that copy of the spell. If you don't have another copy, you don't have that spell anymore.

[etrpgb]

Ok, so for the Wizards the feat writes the spell in the book. Thanks.

Void Disciple! Come here... I need your moment of clarity for a moment... ;)
On the same way a Factotum 19/Wizard 1 can have the best book ever!

Broken and fun. Thanks everyone.

[Suddo]

Originally Posted by Andreaz

You use the feat to write the spell down in your book. If that book is gone, you lost that copy of the spell. If you don't have another copy, you don't have that spell anymore.

Well yes you'd loose it so much as you loose magic missile. You just need to find a scroll of it and bam your back in business.

Also you can make that spell one of those you remember from memory spells (I can't name the feat at the moment).

[Andreaz]

Originally Posted by Suddo

Well yes you'd loose it so much as you loose magic missile. You just need to find a scroll of it and bam your back in business.

Also you can make that spell one of those you remember from memory spells (I can't name the feat at the moment).

Yes, but at that point you're better off just waiting to get the spell without wasting a feat on it, with or without spell mastery.

[mattie_p]

Originally Posted by Andreaz

Yes, but at that point you're better off just waiting to get the spell without wasting a feat on it, with or without spell mastery.

A wizard would never waste a feat on it. A wizard would take extra spell, scribe a scroll of it, DCFS/retrain it away into feat of choice, then scribe the scroll into her spellbook.

[Suddo]

Originally Posted by mattie_p

A wizard would never waste a feat on it. A wizard would take extra spell, scribe a scroll of it, DCFS/retrain it away into feat of choice, then scribe the scroll into her spellbook.

So you're going to waste 500 xp to make a scroll (which you still have to pay for) instead of just buying it. And personally I think there might be a spell or two that might be worth the feat especially if you abuse what level some classes get them at.

[JBento]

You're certainly NOT going to waste a feat slot on a spell if you're a wizard. Any spell. Ever. That sort of stuff is for sorcerers.

What you do is find a caster not hostile to you that knows the spell (the game didn't let you ban Divination; aren't you happy about it now?) and then you're going to bribe the hell out of it to let you copy the spell or help you make a scroll of it (money stopped being an issue at level 11-12, when you became able to cast Wall of Iron and thus gained access to a limitless supply of a valuable trade good).

This gets you, at worst, a scroll of any spell that any bribeable NPC can cast (I say at worst, because some casters don't have spellbooks, and some of those that do will be understandably reluctant to let you handle them). Then you're faced with a Spellcraft DC of 15+spell level (that you're probably not going to fail at low-levels, almost assuredly aren't going to fail at medium-levels, and at high-levels... well...) and then you can copy it into your spellbook.

Now, though it isn't mentioned in the relevant part (i.e., the "adding spells to your spellbook" section), the mention of "arcane spells" can be found peppered about here and there, and your DM might not let this fly (there's a couple of gems in the divine lists that you might make good use of). This just means that your going to aim your spell-knowledgeable-searching divinations at all the lovely, lovely Dragons, Nagas, and Rainbow Servants out there (Nagas and Servants might require a bit of negotiating, but I assure you any true Dragon, a.k.a, the ones you care about, is going to be more than happy to take your money in return for the casting of a spell).

[Kelb_Panthera]

All it does for a wizard is allows him to scribe one extra spell in his book for free on that level up*. That's it. (kind of a waste of a feat, huh?)

On the losing your spell-book issue, there's at least some mitigation in the fact that you can expend the spells you have memorized at the time to scribe a new book containing those spells at half-price.


*Unless you buy the absurd interpretation that it lets you learn -any- one spell up to one level lower than your highest.

[2xMachina]

It's useful if your DM severely handicaps your scroll loot, and don't let you meet other wizards.

[dextercorvia]

Originally Posted by 2xMachina

It's useful if your DM severely handicaps your scroll loot, and don't let you meet other wizards.

Collegiate Wizard would still be a better option (2 extra at every level -- instead of one extra at a single level) unless you realized that you were going to be hit with a stealth nerf after character creation.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by 2xMachina

It's useful if your DM severely handicaps your scroll loot, and don't let you meet other wizards.

No, suicide is useful in that case. Unless the DM is trying to block a specific spell he's implicitly telling you that wizards are too powerful and you shouldn't play one. Roll up your wizard's sorcerer brother and call it a day.

Well..... roll up the sorcerer brother, smack your DM for not having the fortitude to just say, "I'd rather you didn't play a wizard," then call it a day.

Communication is important and passive-aggressive communication (read; bad communication) deserves a smack at best or a rage-quit at worst.

[Acanous]

Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research.

You know what spell a Wizard lacks access to and would be unable to research?



Reincarnate. Heal. cure/Inflict X Wounds. Creaking Cacaphony.
There's reasons to take this feat, they are found in the Divine Spells section.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The feat strongly implies that a Wizard could use it to learn and scribe a spell that he's unable to find a copy of to study. If your DM thinks otherwise, then you can use Extra Spell to learn a spell, then cast Secret Page to turn the text of another spell into that one, and then copy it into your book from there if necessary. The next time you gain a level, use the retraining rules in PH2 p192-193 to switch out Extra Spell for another feat, as you've already got a copy of it now.

I've actually played in a game where the DM decided that Wizards don't automatically learn new spells when they level up, every spell must be discovered and studied. I played a Sorcerer.

[Hopeless]

Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou

I've actually played in a game where the DM decided that Wizards don't automatically learn new spells when they level up, every spell must be discovered and studied. I played a Sorcerer.

I played a Sorceror in a game where the dm claimed my character needed to find wizard spell scrolls to learn new spells ignoring the fact that I had gone as far as to actually create the character's teacher and included the information with the character sheet handed in every session.
Being the only arcane spellcaster and that dependent meant she had to pick up Identify and tried to avoid spells with spell components as best as possible going so far as to ask the dm to replace the Summon Familiar with a single bonus feat in this case Extra Spell so she could add Endure Elements to her known spell list as the party was about to cross into a desert for several days travelling... then the dm allowed the other players to get heat resistant armour for their characters making the effort completely pointless... well until we reached the ruin and had to dig the entrance clear of sand... I made sure the only cleric of the party was protected from the elements along with mine just to be safe!

I agree about it looking like a palm olive branch to sorceror's to cover all the nerfing done to prevent it being better balanced when compared to Wizards but thats an entirely old series of threads dealt with (way, way!) in the past however the one advantage i see is that taking that would allow you to ignore a bad roll for a spell you feel your character absolutely needs and after 3.5 i believe they allow the option to retrain after all well they do allow sorceror's to change their spell list every 4th level or so (1 spell mind you buts enough about Sleep or Colour Spray!)

[tuggyne]

Originally Posted by Hopeless

I played a Sorceror in a game where the dm claimed my character needed to find wizard spell scrolls to learn new spells ignoring the fact that I had gone as far as to actually create the character's teacher and included the information with the character sheet handed in every session.

Wow. That is ... so much not how sorcerers work it's not even funny.

Being the only arcane spellcaster and that dependent meant she had to pick up Identify and tried to avoid spells with spell components as best as possible

Wait, what? I must have missed something.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Acanous

You know what spell a Wizard lacks access to and would be unable to research?

Any Wizard spell you can't find on a scroll, actually, when you're spending your time adventuring rather than researching spells.

[Hopeless]

Apologies I should keep to the topic and stop going off topic.

[etrpgb]

There are few ways to gain a feat temporarily. Moment of Clarity of the Void disciple for example.

As far RAW goes having the Extra Spell feat even for one round means your spellbook has a new spell.

[Psyren]

Originally Posted by Suddo

So you're going to waste 500 xp to make a scroll (which you still have to pay for) instead of just buying it. And personally I think there might be a spell or two that might be worth the feat especially if you abuse what level some classes get them at.

If you have magic-mart available to buy any spell you want, then the feat is indeed useless. But that assumption doesn't always hold true.

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

No, suicide is useful in that case. Unless the DM is trying to block a specific spell he's implicitly telling you that wizards are too powerful and you shouldn't play one. Roll up your wizard's sorcerer brother and call it a day.

Well..... roll up the sorcerer brother, smack your DM for not having the fortitude to just say, "I'd rather you didn't play a wizard," then call it a day.

Communication is important and passive-aggressive communication (read; bad communication) deserves a smack at best or a rage-quit at worst.

That's more than a bit petulant. Plenty of modules have fixed loot, it's not necessarily the DM being passive-aggressive or out to get anyone. And some DMs like to throw odd resources at the players - including spells that don't see play very often - just to see what creative uses they put them to. Left to their own devices and magic-mart, CharOp wizards - like CharOp sorcerers - tend to gravitate towards the same spells, over and over.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Psyren, you have a point.

I tend to forget that modules exist since I never use them.

If that's the source of the lack of magical access it's unfortunate, but a sorcerer would probably still be the better choice in that case.

In a non-module situation, however, there's a line (albeit a fuzzy one) between restricting spell access for a wizard and denying spell access for a wizard. The former is a built in restriction to keep the wizard from getting out of hand, the latter is a stealth nerf.

I took "severely restricting scroll loot" and "never lets you meet other wizards" to be the latter. Even then a wizard's got the independent research rules to fall back on, provided he can get the down-time to employ them.