Tome of Radiance: Mastering the Power of Love and Justice

[Snowfire]

Ah, ok, my apologies I somehow missed that

The point, however, stands - as you agreed. Volatility needs a rewrite into a shape. At present it's Repeating without limit or downside.

[KoihimeNakamura]

Originally Posted by Snowfire

Ah, ok, my apologies I somehow missed that

The point, however, stands - as you agreed. Volatility needs a rewrite into a shape. At present it's Repeating without limit or downside.

I explained it to a friend, and his response was: "Chain Lightning Breath is banned by all nations that observe the Hague Conventions. Including this setting."

[Snowfire]

Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura

I explained it to a friend, and his response was: "Chain Lightning Breath is banned by all nations that observe the Hague Conventions. Including this setting."

...

*claps*

Actually made me burst out laughing. Tell your friend good job.

[Owrtho]

Originally Posted by Snowfire

Volatility needs a rewrite into a shape. At present it's Repeating without limit or downside.

That volatility should become a shape is incorrect. Doing so would drastically reduce its usefulness and essentially make it a more expensive and arguably weaker version of the chain shape (aside from when dealing with groups of enemies that are easily killed with a single shot where the lack of limit or weakening subsequent shots makes it quite useful). However, you are correct it is presently overpowered. My suggestion for correcting this would be twofold. First, don't allow clinging to trigger it. Second, make it similar to the chain augment, in which each rank of it only allows one step. So if you add it once, the first shot you fire can trigger (if it has an area, any creatures that die in the area trigger it, if it's chain, each creature hit in the chain of the first shot could trigger it). However, for those shots to be able to trigger the effect, you need to add another rank of it. This would allow it to be more in keeping with the original intent (which seemed to intend for it to be combine with various shapes) while still reducing the power to a more manageable level.

Owrtho

[Qwertystop]

Originally Posted by jamieth

At this point, you can have minus infinity to your attack rolls, and still hit more or less regularly with nat20 alone... and stall the combat to the point of unplayability.

I just want to point out, though, that if your only way to hit is on a natural 20, you're basically paying 100 motes for one guaranteed-hit attack, unless there's something I'm missing that would let you use Twinned for less.

[jamieth]

1. It's not a 100 motes, "only" 20 :-)

2. I said, "even with infinite penalies"; as is, you can have 16 attacks, 8 of them at your max attack bonus -4. Taking a Red Dragon as an example again, they'll hit on a 2 with sufficiently optimized build :-)

Edit: I guess I have to clarify my math a bit.
You have 4 attacks as a Chm20, plus 2 for surge of battles
Then, you have 20 motes invested into Twinned device, giving you 4 additional weapons to two you get from TD, for a total of six; with Greater Multi-Weapon Fighting you have two attacks from each of them, for a total of 10.

Of these 16 attacks, you have first attack from each weapon, and 2 from Surge, total of 8, at your max bonus (-4 for multi-wield). Rest are iterative attacks, 6 at -5, one at -10, and last at -15.

Of course, you can only use Surge when you need a bit of extra edge, using "only" 14 attacks, 6 of them primary, on other rounds, and having 20 motes open for Blasts or Barriers or whatever...

[Owrtho]

Originally Posted by jamieth

with Greater Multi-Weapon Fighting you have two attacks from each of them, for a total of 10.

Just thought I'd note that you are wrong here. Improved two weapon fighting gives you two attacks with each weapon. Greater multiweapon fighting give you three attacks with each weapon. As such you would have 21 attacks, not 16.

Edit: Also, while it wouldn't show up until epic there is Perfect Multiweapon Fighting (from EL) which lets you get off hand attack for every attack (from itterative attack bonuses) you get with the main hand, meaning the magical girl would have 26 attacks.
Also more relevant to the builds as they level up is Multidexterity (from MM2) which gets rid of penalties for using off-hands for anything. This would remove the -4 penalty to attack rolls suffered from wielding multiple weapons.
Alternatively you could go with Oversized Two-Weapon fighting which makes one-handed weapons count as light weapons for the penalty of using them in the off hand.

Owrtho

[jamieth]

Ah, yep, you're correct. For some reason, I was sure two attacks from each off-hand was the maximum you can get pre-epic... That just makes my build even more ridiculous...

(Offtopic, Perfect MWF seems almost useless... since BAB doesn't increase past 20, you can't ever have more than 4 main attacks, right? So, it only gives you one more attack from each off-hand weapon, and at -15...
Oh, monks do get more than four main attacks, but they don't have off-hand at all, right?)

[Snowfire]

Greater gives you three attacks per weapon. Perfect gives you 4 attacks per weapon. So that example you gave before becomes even crazier. There's also the rather interesting question of this: Does the Battles surge apply to all your weapons if you have multi-weapon fighting?

As without:

+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+6/+6/+6/+6/+6/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1

(28 attacks)

As opposed to with:

+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/
+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/
+11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+6/+6/+6/+6/+6/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1/+1

(48 attacks)

[jamieth]

Originally Posted by Surge of Battles

When the recipient of the surge makes a full attack, she may make an additional attack at her highest base attack bonus for each rank of this augmentation.

I'm pretty sure that means one attack per rank, not one attack per weapon per rank; but, of course, only Selinia can clear that for us. But nevertheless, I stand my point: Twinned Device's infusion effect should be redisigned...

[Snowfire]

Originally Posted by jamieth

I'm pretty sure that means one attack per rank, not one attack per weapon per rank; but, of course, only Selinia can clear that for us. But nevertheless, I stand my point: Twinned Device's infusion effect should be redisigned...

Agreed. The above was just an example of how ridiculous it could get.

[NineThePuma]

Could you, like, delete the chunk of text that stretches the page?

[Snowfire]

Originally Posted by NineThePuma

Could you, like, delete the chunk of text that stretches the page?

Gah! Sorry. Fixed.

[NineThePuma]

Thanks! I actually have it zoomed out, with a fairly wide screen, and it didn't like it x3;;

[Snowfire]

Originally Posted by NineThePuma

Thanks! I actually have it zoomed out, with a fairly wide screen, and it didn't like it x3;;

I think that, in itself, kinda brings home the silliness inherent here

[Selinia]

Changelog! Night of the Living Nerfs, unfortunately, but a side new Enhanced Armaments effects might help make it up.

• Twinned Device has been hit with the nerfbat in a single, simple respect. You are no longer provided with the means to wield all the weapons you summon. It is still quite possible to go crazy multiweapon mode, but you need to go outside the class itself to find some way of getting extra arms or wielding extra weapons the simplest is likely playing a multi-armed race (something much easier to pull off in gestalt), but there are other options.
• Volatile is no longer a WMD. Though it still utterly shreds crowds of weak enemies.
• Extra Enhancement feat added. More options for champs, and opens up a new school of customization to zodiacs/stargazers interested in it.
• Conduit added as an Enhanced Armaments option for costumes. There seems to be a lot of demand for a 'clothing' costume type without any ASF. Rather than add an entire new costume archetype, this single Enhancement ought to make casters quite comfortable in medium or light costumes.
• Effortless added as an Enhanced Armaments option for devices. With the Twinned Device nerf, no reason to not allow this.
• Technical added as an Enhanced Armaments option for devices. Trip, trip, trip like there's no tomorrow! Oh right, also disarms and sunders. Effects like this make me yearn for Pathfinder's CMB, they really do.
• Blazing added as an Enhanced Armaments option for devices. Nothing says all enhancements have to be about brute force - particularly now that stargazers can access them to a limited extent.

Originally Posted by Twinned Device

HOLY MOTHERS OF VIVO, THAT IS A LOT OF ATTACKS.

I have actually been sitting on some concerns about this for some time, but you guys really drove home how potentially messed up those routines could get.

Originally Posted by jamieth

Spoiler

1. It's not a 100 motes, "only" 20 :-)

2. I said, "even with infinite penalies"; as is, you can have 16 attacks, 8 of them at your max attack bonus -4. Taking a Red Dragon as an example again, they'll hit on a 2 with sufficiently optimized build :-)

Edit: I guess I have to clarify my math a bit.
You have 4 attacks as a Chm20, plus 2 for surge of battles
Then, you have 20 motes invested into Twinned device, giving you 4 additional weapons to two you get from TD, for a total of six; with Greater Multi-Weapon Fighting you have two attacks from each of them, for a total of 10.

Of these 16 attacks, you have first attack from each weapon, and 2 from Surge, total of 8, at your max bonus (-4 for multi-wield). Rest are iterative attacks, 6 at -5, one at -10, and last at -15.

Of course, you can only use Surge when you need a bit of extra edge, using "only" 14 attacks, 6 of them primary, on other rounds, and having 20 motes open for Blasts or Barriers or whatever...

Most points I touched on above, but I'd like to thank you for providing an abbreviation for the Champion! It may sound silly, but I hadn't found a good one yet - Cha is out for obvious reasons, Cpn sounds overly nautical, and Cmp just tickles me the wrong way.

Originally Posted by Snowfire

Quite aside from the Weapon Finesse issue, I am going to be coming back to materials here. Because at higher levels, this is important.

I am wracking my brain, but I honestly cannot think of why materials would be vital. There is overcoming DR for weapons, and a number of minor boosts for armor (mithril being the most notable of the lot). This isn't discounting your point - in fact, please elaborate. I feel I'm probably missing something here. I'm actually working on some magical material based additions to the class, and want to make sure I'm not overlooking anything glaringly obvious.

[Regalus]

Uhm Selina, I think the forum ate your edits. The new feat, and enhancements are missing. :/

[Selinia]

Originally Posted by Regalus

Uhm Selina, I think the forum ate your edits. The new feat, and enhancements are missing. :/

...well, what do you know. That it did.

They should be up properly now.

[KoihimeNakamura]

Eh. Conduit is kinda interesting, and does negate some of my complaints, so yeah.

ETA: Oh, someone pointed out a problem with Twinned as if:

So. .you have weapons that aren't light. Can't be thrown. Don't break. Don't Reload. Why would you ever have more than 1?

ETA2: Last time, but:

I appreciate Voltatile no longer being a WMD. Did you realize you made it per/rank? A 1d6 Volatile blast is 8 motes. 2d6 is 16, so on. By the time you can get higher damage it won't shred anything.

ETA3: Ignore that. I was a bit dumb misreading the illumination section. It doesn't really matter, as I'm really kinda at a loss to figure out what a Champion does in Illuminations.

Also: WHY are components class limited? If you'e a Champion you have very little options.

[jamieth]

Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura

Also: WHY are components class limited? If you'e a Champion you have very little options.

Well, perhaps for the same reason Paladins and Rangers don't get 9-th level spells; Illuminations are supposed to be secondary feature for a Champion, at best. That, of course, is strictly IMHO.

[Selinia]

Changelog! A couple of costume effects here, and tweaks on a couple of illuminations.

• Subtle costume effect added. Sometimes smashing face is not the answer. Sometimes smashing face is the answer, but you'd be better off doing it while nobody can see you. Subtle has you covered either way.
• Warded costume effect added. It is now official punch-a-caster day. Punch them. Go ahead. They've earned it.
• Beam and Storms have gained a minor buff - they are now 1m augmentations, and offer less range per rank and slightly slower damage decay. This should offer a few more options at low levels while I work on more augmentations. Particularly surges. We need more low-level surges.

Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura

Eh. Conduit is kinda interesting, and does negate some of my complaints, so yeah.

ETA: Oh, someone pointed out a problem with Twinned as if:

So. .you have weapons that aren't light. Can't be thrown. Don't break. Don't Reload. Why would you ever have more than 1?

A few reasons. Most direct is that you have more than two arms - playing a Kreen, for instance, though there are other ways. If you're facing a disarm-happy enemy, you can also conjure up a copy or two to grab and avoid having to run over and pick your weapon back up (or just burn a swift to invest 2m and conjure a replacement on the spot). And heck, if you're just chilling, having a cloak of floating armaments just plain looks cool.

Is it super-powerful? No, not really. But for most characters, the lightforge investment is going to be secondary to the freebie device - which shares all the awesome of your primary device. Including enchantments. In effect, you're cutting the enchantment costs on your weapons in half, compared to wielding your device in one hand and a normal weapon in your other. Weapon enchantments are pricy. And that's before you get into how twinked out a device can be after a few Enhanced Armaments effects.

Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura

ETA3: Ignore that. I was a bit dumb misreading the illumination section. It doesn't really matter, as I'm really kinda at a loss to figure out what a Champion does in Illuminations.

Also: WHY are components class limited? If you'e a Champion you have very little options.

Originally Posted by jamieth

Well, perhaps for the same reason Paladins and Rangers don't get 9-th level spells; Illuminations are supposed to be secondary feature for a Champion, at best. That, of course, is strictly IMHO.

Jamieth answers this pretty spot-on. Champions don't get some illumination augments for the same reason that Zodiacs don't get Cartridges. It just isn't their forte. I wouldn't quite call champions' illuminations a secondary feature, but they use them differently than a zodiac does, and they supplement them with quite a few other tools zodiacs lack. Not every class can do every thing - if they could, there'd be no reason to make them separate classes in the first place!

[Owrtho]

Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura

ETA: Oh, someone pointed out a problem with Twinned as if:

So. .you have weapons that aren't light. Can't be thrown. Don't break. Don't Reload. Why would you ever have more than 1?

I'd note that there is an Enhanced Armaments that makes the weapon light.

That said, looking at that, and the Conductive enhanced armament, it occurs to me that there is something of an issue with some of these being things you'd quite likely want at first level (such as Effortless for someone who plans to duel wield, conductive for those who find it important and likely will lack any non-feat granted Enhanced Armaments, or Reach for those building around that). Given that, it seems it may be worth granting a single enhanced armament to all of the classes when they gain their enhanced armaments.

On a related note, I suspect that upon gaining enhanced armaments you select from either device or costume, as opposed to getting one of each, but this isn't entirely clear. That said, it is quite possible that at later levels dex based builds will find they have higher AC without the costume as a result of focusing their enhancements on the device and not upgrading the costume.

Also related, KoihimeNakamura brought up a good point about thrown weapons. It may be worth adding an enhancement to make the weapon able to be thrown. Possibly with a ten or fifteen foot range increment that goes up by five each additional time you add the enhancement.

Owrtho

[KoihimeNakamura]

Originally Posted by Selinia

Changelog! A couple of costume effects here, and tweaks on a couple of illuminations.

• Subtle costume effect added. Sometimes smashing face is not the answer. Sometimes smashing face is the answer, but you'd be better off doing it while nobody can see you. Subtle has you covered either way.
• Warded costume effect added. It is now official punch-a-caster day. Punch them. Go ahead. They've earned it.
• Beam and Storms have gained a minor buff - they are now 1m augmentations, and offer less range per rank and slightly slower damage decay. This should offer a few more options at low levels while I work on more augmentations. Particularly surges. We need more low-level surges.

A few reasons. Most direct is that you have more than two arms - playing a Kreen, for instance, though there are other ways. If you're facing a disarm-happy enemy, you can also conjure up a copy or two to grab and avoid having to run over and pick your weapon back up (or just burn a swift to invest 2m and conjure a replacement on the spot). And heck, if you're just chilling, having a cloak of floating armaments just plain looks cool.

Is it super-powerful? No, not really. But for most characters, the lightforge investment is going to be secondary to the freebie device - which shares all the awesome of your primary device. Including enchantments. In effect, you're cutting the enchantment costs on your weapons in half, compared to wielding your device in one hand and a normal weapon in your other. Weapon enchantments are pricy. And that's before you get into how twinked out a device can be after a few Enhanced Armaments effects.




Jamieth answers this pretty spot-on. Champions don't get some illumination augments for the same reason that Zodiacs don't get Cartridges. It just isn't their forte. I wouldn't quite call champions' illuminations a secondary feature, but they use them differently than a zodiac does, and they supplement them with quite a few other tools zodiacs lack. Not every class can do every thing - if they could, there'd be no reason to make them separate classes in the first place!

Point.

-snip-

ETA2: So... you may want to space out how you can take enhanced armaments feats. Like Oversize.

[Draken]

Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura

ETA2: So... you may want to space out how you can take enhanced armaments feats. Like Oversize.

Feats are an opportunity cost and the Enhanced Armament feat isn't really good enough to be taken as more than filler or build necessity, in lieu of more standard choices.

[KoihimeNakamura]

mm. I can see that. On a side note, what happens when you put more motes into the enchantment han the weapon can use (more than +5) Is it capped period, or are you able to put in more motes to take effect with the cartridge boost and they're ignored until then?

[Waddacku]

How does Tremors interact with Shapes? Does it still apply even if it's an AoE, not a hit, and if so, does it force a second Reflex save or would you use the save for half to determine if your enemies get launched?

[Selinia]

Changelog: Illumination Workshop update!

• Changed the way illuminations are put together! The new system is slightly more restrictive, but it will make it a lot easier to make new effects in the long run, and makes assembling illuminations a little more intuitive.
• Added several illuminations, renamed a few, and edited a healthy majority to some small extent. I recommend that you view the list of components as an entirely new entity in its new usage context.
• The Radiant Armaments class feature now innately grants a single Enhanced Armaments effect on aquisition.
• Minor clarifications.

Originally Posted by Owrtho

I'd note that there is an Enhanced Armaments that makes the weapon light.

That said, looking at that, and the Conductive enhanced armament, it occurs to me that there is something of an issue with some of these being things you'd quite likely want at first level (such as Effortless for someone who plans to duel wield, conductive for those who find it important and likely will lack any non-feat granted Enhanced Armaments, or Reach for those building around that). Given that, it seems it may be worth granting a single enhanced armament to all of the classes when they gain their enhanced armaments.

You make a good point. While lots of builds have 1st level feat taxes, evokers don't gain bonus feats, and demanding a feat that early seems a tad harsh. Armaments effect added to initial acquisition.

Originally Posted by Owrtho

On a related note, I suspect that upon gaining enhanced armaments you select from either device or costume, as opposed to getting one of each, but this isn't entirely clear. That said, it is quite possible that at later levels dex based builds will find they have higher AC without the costume as a result of focusing their enhancements on the device and not upgrading the costume.

Also related, KoihimeNakamura brought up a good point about thrown weapons. It may be worth adding an enhancement to make the weapon able to be thrown. Possibly with a ten or fifteen foot range increment that goes up by five each additional time you add the enhancement.

Regarding Dex-based builds - this is true of Dex based builds and pretty much any sort of armor whatsoever, and Costumes are more forgiving than most. In order to be better off AC-wise with clothing than a costume, a magical girl would need a Dex of 32. That is a godlike score. Within the realm of possibility? Certainly. But as you say, only a handful of dex-based builds are going to hit scores like that, and even then, only at high levels. If AC is so important to her that she can't live without those few points, she can pick up a copy or two of Agile (or simply Durable, which is more efficient on the pure-AC front). If she has such an offense-skewed build that she can't afford those Enhancements, then I see no problem with missing out on a few points of potential AC - that's a build choice, and you can't have everything. And I'd bank that such a magical girl will still wear her costume though. Firstly, because it is still the best light armor around. With an AC of +4 and max Dex of +7, there is a total possible AC bonus of +11. That is on par with the best core armor option (Mithril Full-Plate), and an objective step up from the best light armor option (Mithril Chain Shirt, at +10 total bonus possible). Second, I think the potential of Costume Effects outweigh the benefits of a couple points of AC by a hefty margin.

Regarding thrown weapons - simply take Marksman or Bolt, and fluff it as a returning thrown item. This is actually specifically called out as an example in the description of Marksman. That said, I am leaning towards adding an enhancement for those two that allows them to be used in melee without provoking AoOs, so as to better facilitate switch-hitter builds.

Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura

mm. I can see that. On a side note, what happens when you put more motes into the enchantment han the weapon can use (more than +5) Is it capped period, or are you able to put in more motes to take effect with the cartridge boost and they're ignored until then?

The Enhanced effect is a fully external modifier to the normal enhancement bonus of a magic weapon. Simply put, it allows weapons to break the usual cap. With 12m invested in the Enhanced effect, and a +5 weapon as the base, the evoker is essentially wielding a +10 weapon. The ability to create weapons that are literally impossibly sharp and powerful is the biggest perk of the element, and honestly the only reason a non-champion would take it at later levels. I'll add this clarification.

Originally Posted by Waddacku

How does Tremors interact with Shapes? Does it still apply even if it's an AoE, not a hit, and if so, does it force a second Reflex save or would you use the save for half to determine if your enemies get launched?

Tremors still applies to AoEs - the knockback applies from the origin point of the effect. For lines and cones, it doesn't really change anything. For a burst, it knocks the target away from the center of the burst - which means that a clever evoker can actually knock enemies towards her with a well-placed explosion. Regarding saves, the update to illumination renders the question moot, I think. If I'm missing something, let me know.

[Garryl]

Any chance the table of # of costume elements by level can be moved into the specific class tables? It's the one thing based solely on your level in specific classes that isn't with those classes.

Some (not all) of the Blast Shape components still have the [Shape] tag. None of the other illumination types have that tag on the Shape components.

No shape for the classic 60' ranged touch attack Blast? It seems to have been lost since it was baseline before and didn't have a component dedicated to it.

Prism is missing a bit where it connects multiple damage types to amalgam damage effects (it talks about amalgam damage, but neither defines it nor indicates that when multiple ranks are applied, the Blast deals amalgam damage combining the chosen damage types).

For the Shelter Barrier Foundation, did you mean total cover for 12m, or improved cover? Total cover is rather extreme (no line of effect means virtual immunity to anything other than the explicitly-allowed melee attacks) compared to improved cover (improved evasion, essentially). I have no problem with it as-is since nothing is unidirectional (yet), but I particularly noticed certain options referring to the possibility of affecting individuals, rather than areas, so beware.

Rather few secondary Surge effects for Champions, are there? Just the range booster and Promises.

Battles + Pulses is like a mass version of Swift Haste starting at level 1, btw. Tone down Battles a bit, maybe? There are many other foundations that have no effect with few enough motes, or you could move it to a secondary effect.

[Draken]

Rank 0 Cascade is the default 60 foot ranged touch attack.

I should know, I made sure Selinia made that explicit in Cascade's text when she first showed it to me.

And pulses plus battles is, at least at character level one, roughtly equivalent to the Snake's Swiftness spell, just with much more limited range. It is a potent buff and somewhat balanced after flurry of blows.

[Garryl]

I see. The rank 0 think is a bit hidden in there. How about instead having a cost of 0m + 3/rank beyond the first (similar to many other shapes), thus putting it up top with the 0m shapes instead of hidden at the bottom with 3m shapes. This also lets you remove the +1 target thing and the special case for 0 ranks. It would look something like this:

Cascade [Champion, Empath, Stargazer]
[Mote Cost: 0m + 3m/rank beyond the first]
A single blast of power is the calling card of many magical girls. Brutal, overpowering... and incredibly inelegant. For situations calling for a measured hand and precise aim, it is common for magical girls to configure a barrage of lesser blasts, annihilating enemy forces with the precision of a laser blade. The illumination targets up to 1 creature per rank within a 60' base range with a ranged touch attack. The evoker makes only a single attack roll, comparing it to the touch AC of each of her targets.

Regarding Battles, Snake's Swiftness is a standard action spell (the Mass version as well, which is still Drd 2, Sor/Wiz 3), not swift. It's one thing to give up your turn to give all of your allies an extra attack, it's another thing entirely to do it while still doing something awesome with your standard action as well. At least at low levels, anyways. I don't much mind it at level 7+, like it was before.