Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[Kish]

Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915

I believe that 12d8 "intermittent duty" refers to Redcloak in some way, since it's his job to keep Xykon on full HP. Neither Harm nor any of the Inflict spells work like that though. Maybe it refers to Redcloak's hit dice at the time?

Since he explicitly can't cast Heal at the time and a twelfth-level cleric can, not possible, unless he's multiclassed with another d8-hit-dice class (Redcloak is part monk! Uh-huh...).

I doubt the numbers refer to anything.

[Crusher]

Oh, my bad, was referring to it from memory and I guess I got the labels wrong. Anyway, I thought it was interesting because its a little hard to read properly and there were actual numbers listed which is fairly rare, plus I couldn't for the life of me figure out what the numbers referred to. My assumption was actually that there was a stock answer to this and I just hadn't been able to find it via Search.

[ti'esar]

I can't believe I've only just noticed this, but it looks like the second set of stat blocks (Team Evil onwards) are listed twice: in the FAQ under a spoiler and in a separate post below that. Why is this, exactly?

[Flame of Anor]

Just a reminder: as I argued here, I believe convincingly, Vaarsuvius should be listed with the Knowledge: Religion skill.

[durron597]

Should we have an alignment for Malack? I don't know if it's been discussed in previous threads, but it hasn't been in this thread.

I think it's pretty clear his alignment is Lawful Neutral from String #737, with a much more convincing argument for Lawful than for Neutral. (I would be happy with Lawful ??? as his alignment).

Arguments for Lawful

• Advocates Strong Central Government
• Doesn't like Tiamat
• Gets along well with Durkon

Arguments for Neutral

• Suggests that worshipping death is a Neutral act
• Gets along with Durkon
• Ethical code doesn't seem nearly as evil as Tarquin

Thoughts?

[Kish]

The thread's only supposed to record things that are established. If you're making a case rather than saying, "...because it says so right here," it doesn't belong here.

[Kurald Galain]

Originally Posted by durron597

Should we have an alignment for Malack?

We generally avoid listing alignment unless it is explicitly stated either in the comic or in Rich's notes and forum posts. This is because alignment tends to be subjective and lend itself to lengthy debates where nobody agrees with one another. Case in point: the numerous threads in this forum where either Belkar or Thog is argued to be non-evil.

It says so in our FAQ, actually.

[Techwarrior]

Originally Posted by Flame of Anor

Just a reminder: as I argued here, I believe convincingly, Vaarsuvius should be listed with the Knowledge: Religion skill.

I agree with Flame here. Vaarsuvius undoubtedly has the skill trained, he doesn't neccasarily have it maxed, but he does have it.

Edit: Also, Two Weapon Pounce has a Special exception for Rangers with the Two Weapon Fighting Combat Style. Belkar doesn't need any Dexterity, much less 15, to get the feat or to use it, so long as he is wearing light or no armor.

[Fitzclowningham]

Does today's comic tell us anything about Durkon's wisdom? Near as I can tell, he would need a 23 to cast Planar Ally 6 times (3 6th level spells, 2 7th level prepared as 6th level, and +1 for wisdom). As far as I can tell, Planar Ally isn't a domain spell, and if he was going to use his 8th-level slot, he'd be better off casting Greater Planar Ally. Am I missing anything here?

[Techwarrior]

Not really, not until we see how he goes about casting them. We know he cast a Holy Word today, so there's at least 1 less than he would have.

Besides I don't know about you, but Planar Ally x5 or 6 almost never appears on my Cleric's spell list. 5 or 6 scrolls however, that could conceivably be in my bag.

[Fitzclowningham]

He wouldn't have to wait until dawn to read the scrolls...although he may have a few. Good point.

Having them guard the gate for 'a week or two' would get awfully expensive at 1,000+++ gp/HD, though.

[Winter]

Don't forget he could count in Lesser Planar Ally in as well. So we really have no idea if he has 6 of the "normal" ones, scrolls, a distribution between both or something as 4 lesser and 2 normal ones etc etc.
Given how Durkon acts, Wis 23+ is I think unlikely, but far from impossible on his level so this should be kept in mind.

Also, given how many Allys Redcloak had when he crushed the resistance, the rules on this seem to be pretty lose. What Redcloak did is not impossible for his level but it really seems the Spell seems to be more Powered By Plot than by the actual RAW. But again, we do not know what sort of combination of spells/scrolls etc RC used. But if the rules are lose, as we have to assume from the Giant's comments, it might be hard to assume something like this.

[SinsI]

Originally Posted by Winter

Don't forget he could count in Lesser Planar Ally in as well. So we really have no idea if he has 6 of the "normal" ones, scrolls, a distribution between both or something as 4 lesser and 2 normal ones etc etc.
Given how Durkon acts, Wis 23+ is I think unlikely, but far from impossible on his level so this should be kept in mind.

His wording is quite specific - he has the resources to cast normal Planar Ally spell to summon Astral Deva 5 or 6 times in two days (why the uncertainity? Does he have only enough gold for 5, but some of them might waive the payment, letting him call for the 6th one?); nothing indicates that it can be some lesser version.

[Kish]

I would actually be amazed if he doesn't have Wisdom 23+. Haley's dexterity was (Word of God) in that range hundreds of strips ago, and mechanics-Wisdom seems to have little to do with actual behavior in OotS; look at Redcloak.

[Werbaer]

Originally Posted by SinsI

he has the resources to cast normal Planar Ally spell to summon Astral Deva 5 or 6 times in two days (why the uncertainity? Does he have only enough gold for 5, but some of them might waive the payment, letting him call for the 6th one?)

Mabe he can cast it 6 times in a row if he uses all high level spell slots, but he would prefer to save one slot for another spell (Death Ward or Holy Word)

[Gitman00]

Perhaps this was brought up already, but why isn't Shojo's age listed as 80+? Roy calls him an octogenarian here.

[hamishspence]

Because it was given as 72 on one of the cast pages- possibly the War & XPs one. Roy is estimating- he doesn't know how old Shojo is but thinks he looks 80-odd.

[Kish]

Why would anyone think Roy found out exactly when Shojo was born so he could be exhaustively precise while sniping at Miko?

This thread needs a lot less "this character said X, therefore X is an established fact!"

[hamishspence]

Originally Posted by Kish

This thread needs a lot less "this character said X, therefore X is an established fact!"

Belkar's comment about taking the "Craft Disturbing Mental Image" feat springs to mind.

[Snails]

Originally Posted by Flame of Anor

Just a reminder: as I argued here, I believe convincingly, Vaarsuvius should be listed with the Knowledge: Religion skill.

I would also note it is pretty natural for a high Int Wizard to take one single rank of various Knowledge skills cross class. As they get to add in their Int mod, they can get a +6 or higher net skill for the cost of 2 skill points. That is plenty good enough to notice the obvious things, but it can easily fail on the subtleties.

[Techwarrior]

Wizards don't have cross-class Knowledge skill, so the cost would only be 1 skill point.

[SinsI]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

Belkar's comment about taking the "Craft Disturbing Mental Image" feat springs to mind.

There's a ton of difference between "this character said X about someone else" and "this character said X about himself".
Belkar knows his own feats - while Roy is not that intimate with Shojo.

[dps]

Originally Posted by Kish

Why would anyone think Roy found out exactly when Shojo was born so he could be exhaustively precise while sniping at Miko?

This thread needs a lot less "this character said X, therefore X is an established fact!"

Especially in this case, because a couple of strips after Roy called Shojo an octogenarian, Belkar said that Shojo was "like a billion years old", so I'm sure that someone will want to argue that Shojo's age should be listed as c. 1 Billion.

[Gitman00]

Originally Posted by Kish

Why would anyone think Roy found out exactly when Shojo was born so he could be exhaustively precise while sniping at Miko?

This thread needs a lot less "this character said X, therefore X is an established fact!"

It was just a question. I'm 8,000 miles away from my copy of WXP, I wasn't aware his specific age was listed there (especially since the OP lists his age as 72+, not 72), and it's not unreasonable that Roy might know his age. I wasn't claiming anything as established fact; I was asking a question, which was then answered to my satisfaction (thank you, hamishspence). That's what a discussion is for, right?

I think what this thread needs is a lot less hostility. People are less likely to contribute if they're jumped on for asking simple questions.

[Kish]

Originally Posted by Gitman00

It was just a question.

"Why isn't Shojo's age listed as 80+?"

A question that only makes sense in the presence of a belief that Roy's saying "octogenarian" should be treated as meaning something.

and it's not unreasonable that Roy might know his age.

...I disagree. As I said--also a question, "Why would anyone think Roy found out exactly when Shojo was born so he could be exhaustively precise while sniping at Miko?" I also think it unreasonable that Roy might know Shojo's blood type.

Also see dps's post.

[Gitman00]

Originally Posted by Kish

"Why isn't Shojo's age listed as 80+?"

A question that only makes sense in the presence of a belief that Roy's saying "octogenarian" should be treated as meaning something.

Oh, for the love of...

I'm not disputing the point! Asked, answered, resolved. He's 72. Fine. Do you have some pathological need to prove me wrong, even when I'm not disagreeing with you? Okay then, you win. You're right, I'm wrong. Congratulations. I'm just annoyed that you couldn't deign to be courteous, as hamishspence was.

...I disagree. As I said--also a question, "Why would anyone think Roy found out exactly when Shojo was born so he could be exhaustively precise while sniping at Miko?" I also think it unreasonable that Roy might know Shojo's blood type.

That is neither here nor there. You're just setting up a strawman, for what reason I can't fathom. I never remotely claimed he was being exhaustively precise. An octogenarian is someone in his eighties. That's a margin of error of a decade. In what universe is that exhaustively precise?

I am utterly baffled that you're still arguing this. If your point is that what Roy said is less reliable than what WXP said and shouldn't be considered definitive, I conceded that point in my first reply. If the point is that I shouldn't have asked the question in the first place, that's rude and counterproductive to the purpose of the thread.

[Kish]

Originally Posted by Gitman00

Oh, for the love of...

I'm not disputing the point! Asked, answered, resolved. He's 72. Fine. Do you have some pathological need to prove me wrong, even when I'm not disagreeing with you? Okay then, you win. You're right, I'm wrong. Congratulations. I'm just annoyed that you couldn't deign to be courteous, as hamishspence was.

If you believe I'm flaming you, you should report the post to a mod.

You're continuing to maintain that Roy's casual declaration of Shojo as an octogenarian should be treated as meaning something. Just not as much as what War and XPs commentary says. Therefore, we disagree. And, in the larger context, as I said, I would like to see fewer assertions of the "This character said X, why isn't X listed as established in the thread?" form. Last I checked, this thread claims a high standard of proof, not to record as fact everything everyone ever asserted. I don't want Miko's Mean Old Cranky-Pants class or Elan's Intelligence of 2 back.

That is neither here nor there. You're just setting up a strawman, for what reason I can't fathom. I never remotely claimed he was being exhaustively precise. An octogenarian is someone in his eighties. That's a margin of error of a decade. In what universe is that exhaustively precise?

If I was forced to choose between "Roy found out Shojo's age to the year" and, "Roy found out that Shojo was between 80 and 89, but didn't narrow it down further," the former would be my pick. Though, not being forced to pick between those two, I pick "Roy chose a random word that meant really old and hurled it at Miko, with as much concern for accuracy as Belkar showed shortly thereafter in calling Shojo a billion years old."

If your argument was (before hamishspence quoted War and XPs) that we should presume Roy knows Shojo's age to a decade rather than to a year, my question is still, "Why did you believe that?" My point is not that what Roy said is "less meaningful than War and XPs," my point is that what Royany character says on a subject where there is no reason to believe s/he knows what s/he is talking about has no weight at all. You are of course free to ask any question. And I am free to ask the question, "Why did you ask that question?"

[Cizak]

Originally Posted by Kish

You're continuing to maintain that Roy's casual declaration of Shojo as an octogenarian should be treated as meaning something.

Uh, no, he's not? He asked if there was a reason for Shojo to not be lsited as age 80, when someone calls him 80 years old. He was given a reason, and is satisfied with the answer.

If your argument was (before hamishspence quoted War and XPs) that we should presume Roy knows Shojo's age to a decade rather than to a year, my question is still, "Why did you believe that?"

There was no argument! There is no argument! Why are you acting as if he's arguing with you?

Seriously Kish, you're coming off as unnecessarily grumpy here.

[SowZ]

Originally Posted by Kish

If you believe I'm flaming you, you should report the post to a mod.

You're continuing to maintain that Roy's casual declaration of Shojo as an octogenarian should be treated as meaning something. Just not as much as what War and XPs commentary says. Therefore, we disagree. And, in the larger context, as I said, I would like to see fewer assertions of the "This character said X, why isn't X listed as established in the thread?" form. Last I checked, this thread claims a high standard of proof, not to record as fact everything everyone ever asserted. I don't want Miko's Mean Old Cranky-Pants class or Elan's Intelligence of 2 back.

I don't think implying it once is the same as continuing to maintain something. If, say, Haley went on a scouting mission to look at some noble and came back and reported, "The guy is a dark skinned human, looks to be about 50," it wouldn't be unreasonable to list 'about 50' as his age in absence of any other evidence.

[Math_Mage]

Originally Posted by Kish

If you believe I'm flaming you, you should report the post to a mod.

The span of reportable behavior is not coincident with the span of undesirable behavior. Just because nobody's calling the Sheriff of Moddingham on you doesn't mean Gitman00 isn't justified in asking for a bit less hostility.

Anyway, the appropriate standard of proof for asking a question like the one Gitman00 asked on this thread is much lower than the appropriate standard of proof for actually including information in the OP. So perhaps your irritation over information that has previously made it into the OP based on character assertions should not extend to every time a character assertion gets brought up in the thread. Indeed, your attitude would preclude further discussion that may lead to consensus on new information (V's rank(s) in Knowledge:Religion, and your comment on the topic, come to mind as a recent example).