Spells: What to Ban?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by ShriekingDrake

What about Polymorph and Alter Self? Is it better to fix or nix these? I have assumed that they can be fixed. But I may be mistaken.

You might be able to save alter self, but polymorph is just too open ended to really be workable. There are plenty of spells that can give you a specific shape that are reasonably balanced to replace it with.

Alter self can be improved, IMO, by changeing the target line to "you (humanoids only)". If you can't change your dragonwrought kobold sorcerer into an actual true dragon (let's not start that debate again, please) of the same HD, or your aasimar wizard into a freakin' angel, it makes the spell much more reasonable.

[tuggyne]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

Alter self can be improved, IMO, by changeing the target line to "you (humanoids only)". If you can't change your dragonwrought kobold sorcerer into an actual true dragon (let's not start that debate again, please) of the same HD, or your aasimar wizard into a freakin' angel, it makes the spell much more reasonable.

True, but then it seems weird, and needs renaming to alter person, since it's useless to casters of any other type.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by tuggyne

True, but then it seems weird, and needs renaming to alter person, since it's useless to casters of any other type.

I'm okay with that.

[Flickerdart]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

Alter self can be improved, IMO, by changeing the target line to "you (humanoids only)". If you can't change your dragonwrought kobold sorcerer into an actual true dragon (let's not start that debate again, please) of the same HD, or your aasimar wizard into a freakin' angel, it makes the spell much more reasonable.

Even the weakest angel is far out of scope for the spell, and even if you could find a low level one to shift into, pretty much all you'd get is their flight...which you can get as a humanoid (off Raptoran) quite easily anyway.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

Even the weakest angel is far out of scope for the spell, and even if you could find a low level one to shift into, pretty much all you'd get is their flight...which you can get as a humanoid (off Raptoran) quite easily anyway.

It was an example off the top of my head.

The point was that types other than humanoid often have very nice options for alter self that, while RAW legal, fall outside of what I suspect many people would consider RAI, and make the spell somewhat overpowered besides.

[nedz]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

Alter self can be improved, IMO, by changeing the target line to "you (humanoids only)". If you can't change your dragonwrought kobold sorcerer into an actual true dragon (let's not start that debate again, please) of the same HD, or your aasimar wizard into a freakin' angel, it makes the spell much more reasonable.

I like this, but I don't think it's necessary. If a PC acquires a reputation for really being a Dragon or Angel (whatever) then they will attract unwanted attention. This cost could easily outweigh the advantage. It's hard to keep these tricks completely secret.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by nedz

I like this, but I don't think it's necessary. If a PC acquires a reputation for really being a Dragon or Angel (whatever) then they will attract unwanted attention. This cost could easily outweigh the advantage. It's hard to keep these tricks completely secret.

At the same time, that reputation creates a new advantage, in being able to catch those who take it to be true completely by suprise. The only thing more powerful than information is misinformation.

[Flickerdart]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

It was an example off the top of my head.

The point was that types other than humanoid often have very nice options for alter self that, while RAW legal, fall outside of what I suspect many people would consider RAI, and make the spell somewhat overpowered besides.

You failed to make that point, then. What are some actually overpowered options for quirky races that are worth giving up one or more feats (compared to a Human) and the slot to cast Alter Self?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

You failed to make that point, then. What are some actually overpowered options for quirky races that are worth giving up one or more feats (compared to a Human) and the slot to cast Alter Self?

Fist, I said humanoid, not human. The giving up a feat doesn't follow, because you were going to be doing that anyway, no matter which non-human race you chose. Unless you're saying the only race worth playing is human.

Just off the top of my head and using the SRD for a quick reference, an aasimar can alter-self into the form of an air-mephit for the decrease in size (good for a caster) and 60ft fly speed with perfect maneuverability. This is effectively part of the boost from reduce person, plus better than what you get from fly, and for 10 times the duration of either. Thats one second level slot for an outright better effect than one 1st and one 3rd level slot. Works just as well for a tiefling.

A warforged could transform himself into an animated object giving himself a hardness score for 10min/level. An ability that's outright better than damage reduction and energy resistance because it's effectively the two combined with no bypass on the damage reduction and resistance to all types of energy. He also gets boosts to, and possibly extra, movement modes depending on the exact object. As an object, he may even get energy damages reduced by a fraction before applying hardness, depending on how the DM rules it. (don't count on that last bit, this demonstration's already got DM's eyeing the spell suspiciously)

A necropolitan could alter-self into an incorporeal creature, such as a shadow. (I think, I don't have the polymorph subschool sidebar in front of me.)

All three of these are reasonable (not to mention common) racial choices in their own right. Adding alter-self cheese on top is just gravy.

[Draz74]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

You failed to make that point, then. What are some actually overpowered options for quirky races that are worth giving up one or more feats (compared to a Human) and the slot to cast Alter Self?

Like I mentioned earlier ... Dwarf Ancestor. Natural Armor +18, anyone?

[Telok]

Originally Posted by Draz74

Like I mentioned earlier ... Dwarf Ancestor. Natural Armor +18, anyone?

The Assume Supernatural Ability feat can be a problem since an Alter Self caster can start taking it at level 3.

Monstrous Humanoid: Centaur [large and 50 base move], Sea Hag [Evil Eye save or die]
Aberration: Choker [two standard actions each round], Ethereal Filcher [CL15 Ethereal Jaunt]
Outsider: Xorn [+12 NatAC, three arms], Ravid [CL20 free action Animate Object], Lantern Archon [CL14 Greater Teleport at will]

If someone has a gish build that includes Alter Self and Assume Supernatural Ability you can be sure of at least mild shenanigans. Elan characters are especially bad with the choker's Quickness ability.

Edit Edit: I realized that I counted only [Ex] abilities in the above statement. I have since changed them to the [Su] abilities that the feat actually gives. Although some special defenses are not called out as [Ex] or [Su].

[nedz]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

At the same time, that reputation creates a new advantage, in being able to catch those who take it to be true completely by suprise. The only thing more powerful than information is misinformation.

True, but it can work both ways. More like to lead to misconceptions, which could create some interesting plot twists

[Rejakor]

Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera

It was an example off the top of my head.

The point was that types other than humanoid often have very nice options for alter self that, while RAW legal, fall outside of what I suspect many people would consider RAI, and make the spell somewhat overpowered besides.

There's like, 3 things that you can change into that actually help you, using weird [Type]s and Alter Self.

As an outsider, you can use one of the low-HD forms that have good natural armour, because outsiders all are crazily natural armoured for some reason. The famous example is Ancestor Dwarf, but there are others if for example you're not in a game that has ancestor dwarves in it.

You can change into something with better flight than a raptoran or avariel. Yawn. Or better swim speed than an aquatic elf. Double yawn.

In all the monster manuals and other books, there is probably something that has less than 5 HD and an Ex ability that does something good (as opposed to crap like Stench and Pounce, that is not actually that good).


The only real problem there is using natural AC to get a high armour class for minutes/level. If someone wants to spend their race or a feat, in order to be a wizard with a high AC, i'm actually okay with that.

But if you're worried about it, just cap the nat armour available to half CL. Problem solved forever.

[ShriekingDrake]

The discussion here seems to suggest that Polymorph (as well as Draconic Polymorph) and Alter Self should be nixed.

[nedz]

Originally Posted by ShriekingDrake

The discussion here seems to suggest that Polymorph (as well as Draconic Polymorph) and Alter Self should be nixed.

The problem with polymorph is that it extends your spell book by 6 monster manuals+whatever else you can find on the web. Some of the options are OP.

[Venger]

Originally Posted by ShriekingDrake

The discussion here seems to suggest that Polymorph (as well as Draconic Polymorph) and Alter Self should be nixed.

a possible solution: make the caster "prepare" monsters in advance. cutting down on versatility somewhat helps make up for the spell's power

so he doesn't prepare polymorph, he prepares "polymorph: guardian naga"

[Rejakor]

It depends on the kind of game you run.

If you run a traditional roles cleric is a healer wizard shoots fireballs fighter has weapon focus and rogue sneaks and uses two daggers group, polymorph, even with the 'you and the monster are separate things, you don't get spells or buffs you cast earlier, you just get the monster's stats' thing, polymorph could theoretically outpower the group. That said, if you have someone digging for OP monsters and using polymorph in a group like that, you ALREADY have a problem.

If you run a group that does even slight optimization, a wizard turning into a War Troll, without buffs or spellcasting, at level 12, is perfectly balanced.

If you use polymorph as written, and allow it to be combined with spells and buffs, then most low-op parties are going to feel crappy compared to the buffed polymorphed wizard. It's too powerful for mid-op, but won't necessarily overpower the party. The place and time for polymorph as written is high op, so a party where the druid is a fleshraker with venomfire, and the rogue is a flask swift ambusher with travel devotion, and the cleric is a codzilla, would be the place for a polymorphed wizard duder.

That said, again, a relatively easy fix of making it be EITHER have buffs and spells OR be polymorphed makes polymorph perfectly fine for most groups.

Alter Self takes high op to actually be more powerful than it should be (ancestor dwarf etc), otherwise the most it does is give a +5 bonus to natural armour for being a troglodyte, which, given Mirror Image is also a second level spell, is fine.




Polymorph Any Object, though, is broken as ****. Even if you disallow the permanent duration, it's still broken as ****. It should not be in any game, as it gives you the su, sp, and ex of ANY creature you ever want.

Shapechange is roughly similar, but meh, it's a 9th level spell.

[ShriekingDrake]

I've been looking at fixes intermittently throughout the day. I am not seeing a way through polymorph, draconic polymorph, and alter self. I think I'm ditching them. There are a number of of spells that allow transformations but these seem too abusable to me.

Am I missing anything else?

[eggs]

Originally Posted by ShriekingDrake

There are a number of of spells that allow transformations but these seem too amusable to me.

Well I've definitely never seen shapeshifts used in a way that didn't amuse somebody.

[ShriekingDrake]

Originally Posted by eggs

Well I've definitely never seen shapeshifts used in a way that didn't amuse somebody.

Whoops. Fixed that.

[Melcar]

I have godt to say, that I wholly disagree in the fact of banning. I think, that the more options, be them more or less powerful, ads to the whole experience. I would say, that the spells in question could be rare or very hard to optain.

Further, I would not include my players in this. I would let them find out what happened, when theygot to a level they actually could cast the sayd spell. Just tell them, that they should not be locked to what the books said, but experience the realms as you describe them. And then you simply put into play the spells you like and how you like them. But be warned. Banning is for me no way to go. More is for me more!

[Kelb_Panthera]

Originally Posted by Melcar

I have godt to say, that I wholly disagree in the fact of banning. I think, that the more options, be them more or less powerful, ads to the whole experience. I would say, that the spells in question could be rare or very hard to optain.

Further, I would not include my players in this. I would let them find out what happened, when theygot to a level they actually could cast the sayd spell. Just tell them, that they should not be locked to what the books said, but experience the realms as you describe them. And then you simply put into play the spells you like and how you like them. But be warned. Banning is for me no way to go. More is for me more!

This doesn't really work for maintaining even a semblance of game-balance, if your players are either reasonably experienced or, worse, if they frequent boards like this one.

Removing some of the most exploitable elements of the game before they become a problem can save a DM a lot of headache.

I can understand a desire to keep banning to a minimum, but there are some things that a DM just has to outright say no to.

[Melcar]

If you must ban, then ban in secret. That was my point. And also. Try getting the things you want to ban to work for you, not against you. Only the imagination sets the boundaries. Bannings is the "easy" way out!

I have ever onl banned one thing, and thats the monk class, since it just didnt fit the setting.

But ofc. do what ever works for you and your game!

[Kazyan]

Originally Posted by Melcar

Try getting the things you want to ban to work for you, not against you. Only the imagination sets the boundaries. Bannings is the "easy" way out!

This works when you're writing a novel *sideyes at current 29715 words of literary Wonder Bread*, but in an RPG, the players have a lot of control. Some classes will have game-twisters, and some won't, but you won't be able to do much about it if a conflict arises between players because of it. Some things really should be fixed.

[nedz]

Originally Posted by Melcar

If you must ban, then ban in secret. That was my point. And also. Try getting the things you want to ban to work for you, not against you. Only the imagination sets the boundaries. Bannings is the "easy" way out!

I have ever onl banned one thing, and thats the monk class, since it just didnt fit the setting.

But ofc. do what ever works for you and your game!

I dislike banning things too, but stealth banning is much worse.

Much better to be upfront so that everyone knows where they stand.

For instance I'm playing a Sorcerer in one game with a DM who bans things for seemingly arbitrary reasons. I didn't pick up Fly because a refluffed version of Flight of the Dragon would fit the character better and be more flexible. I come to take my 1st 4th level spell and discover that FotD is banned: I then have to wait another level to pick up Fly
There have been numerous instances of this and it is very annoying.

[ShriekingDrake]

That's the idea. I know that there will always be opportunities for dashed expectations or miscommunication or unbalance. That said, getting out some ground rules is helpful. The fact that WoTC wrote a rule doesn't make it a good rule or a rule that works for any given campaign.

I am trying to get the wisdom of the boards here about spells I should consider nixing (as opposed to fixing). There will be things we keep that are unbalanced, for instance, Natural Spell. We like the flavor and will keep it. There are other ways to address the imbalance among classes. But we are working now to nix and fix spells, feats, magic items, and some other aspects of the game.

I do appreciate the concerns about banning too much or even banning at all. But we, as a group, are comfortable banning. I'd welcome specific critiques about the spells I've listed in the first post or spells I should be considering that are not there.

[lord_khaine]

I do appreciate the concerns about banning too much or even banning at all. But we, as a group, are comfortable banning. I'd welcome specific critiques about the spells I've listed in the first post or spells I should be considering that are not there.

looking though your list of spells, then i would again suggest against removing alter self and polymorp completely, as long as you just limit what books you can take shapes from it isnt going to run completely out of control (compare the stats of a wartroll and a regular troll, one of those is going to break the game, the other will just let the wizard have a bit of fun bullying some regular orcs for a change of pace)

Else i dont think you should be banning contingency, its one of the few decent evocation spells, and if you just place some solid guidelines for what kind of things that are able to trigger it, then i dont think its going to be a problem either.

As for planar binding, then i dont think this spell should be banned either, it would instead be enough to add a bit of consequences from more powerfull outsiders towards wizards who use the spell in bad faith, and kills or magicaly enslave what they have called.

regarding enchanced wildshape im not sure whats it doing on this list, but i cant see any reason to ban it.

On the other hand i dont see any mentioning of Evards black tentacles, and thats a spell i certainly think deserves a bit of closer attention.

[PetterTomBos]

In my campaign I almost ban spells that duplicate class features or skills completely. What I say is that the spell gives a bonus instead of duplicating what others could do. This is usually done on the fly, and fleshed out later if the PC's learn/use the spell extensively.

Spider climb: +4 to climb checks, no matter how the surface is tilted it is not worse than climbing the same surface vertically.

Knock: bonus to open lock, open lock take 15, or an open lock check of 15.

Find traps: you can find traps with DC = 22.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If anyone's interested in a more fleshed out discussion of planar binding, we've got a rather solid discussion going in another thread. Start on post 25.

That discussion pertains specifically to using PB to get wishes, but the info would move reasonably well to any other motivation for the spells' use.

[ShriekingDrake]

Originally Posted by lord_khaine

looking though your list of spells, then i would again suggest against removing alter self and polymorp completely, as long as you just limit what books you can take shapes from it isnt going to run completely out of control (compare the stats of a wartroll and a regular troll, one of those is going to break the game, the other will just let the wizard have a bit of fun bullying some regular orcs for a change of pace)

So I take it, you'd say that neither of these spells would need to be banned if we just limited the possible form/shape to core? Would others agree with this?

Else i dont think you should be banning contingency, its one of the few decent evocation spells, and if you just place some solid guidelines for what kind of things that are able to trigger it, then i dont think its going to be a problem either.

What kind of limits would you have in mind? I've had a difficult coming up with criteria that work. I'd put contingency back into fix pile if I had a sense of how to get there.

As for planar binding, then i dont think this spell should be banned either, it would instead be enough to add a bit of consequences from more powerfull outsiders towards wizards who use the spell in bad faith, and kills or magicaly enslave what they have called.

Take a look at Kelb Panthera's link above. I think this is a hard spell to control. And I think that ruling that the outsider your player has conjured has turned against him, while legitimate, can cause friction. It just strikes me that this line of spells is more trouble than it is worth.

regarding enchanced wildshape im not sure whats it doing on this list, but i cant see any reason to ban it.

I don't think this spell is necessary, as druids are powerful enough. That said, I'm considering putting this on the fix list and just getting rid of advancing the plant form and addition of special abilities.

On the other hand i dont see any mentioning of Evards black tentacles, and thats a spell i certainly think deserves a bit of closer attention.

Evard's can be fixed.