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In order to resolve some issues in my group about what a Paladin should act like, I want to play a PC that is more or less Lancelot the Pure, knight of the round table.
I got the behaviour down, but I also don't want him to suck mechanically (Lancelot was more or less invincible in honest melee combat), so I turn to the playground and humbly ask for suggestions for classes, feats, and maybe vows.
All books, no Dragon magazin, are in play, and I want him to be human (or at most, lesser aasimar or something similarly fitting).
Lancelot is aboveboard and fair and stuff and most melee combos rely on being anything but.
There are ways to be CHA-dependent, like adding it to saving throws and AC and stuff, which would give you great defences that you could then add cha to hit and damage or something and be a turtle style melee warrior, i.e. invincible in a fair fight (but not necessarily 1 hit killing).
This would probably end up with Lancelot being a spellcaster though.
What kind of op level is this for? Low, mid, high? What kind of characters do other people in your group play?
I think Lancelot would be a particularly Charismatic Fighter, myself; Galahad would be a straight-up Paladin. I'm not sure if Fighters can optimize for high Charisma, though, at least not without one or two dips.
It's a mid-op game. I personally was thinking about Crusader and maybe monk. Something to give him CHA or WIS to AC, or both if possible. He basically should be unhittable (AC in the late 30s).
The other characters are a Cleric of Heironeus 11 (baldy optimized, just took DMM(Maximimize) for healing), a Bard 10/Sublime Chord 1, and a Cleric 3/Paladin 2/Grey Guard 6.
I'm not hung up on even using the paladin class; he could be anything mechanically.
I don't think that the Aruthurian Lancelot qualifies as a paladin, original or not. After all, he did have a streak for thinking too much with his sword arm, as well as siring a bastard child with the Fisher King's daughter and having an affair with his king's wife. The perfect paladin would probably be said bastard child, Galahad. Whom was regarded to be something akin to Christ in plate armor, as he was so perfect that God apparently decided to beam him up to heaven after he accomplishes the task of finding the holy grail (a task which only the purest in the world could have achieved) due to the fact that if he was allowed to stay on earth, there wouldn't be any problem he couldn't have fixed and the whole plot would have gone to waste.
But onto the building, if you want an Arhurian Lancelot, I suggest warlord or knight, since the things he did would probably make him fall-worthy by our standards. He would probably have to be Neutral or Chaotic Good, since he's still a good guy, he just decided to make some really, really bad and stupid decisions that cost him and everyone around him dearly.
Straight Warblade might be the way to go. You'll probably want to use heavy armor anyways which makes Cha to AC difficult to acquire. Knight of the Sacred Seal (but that's a Binder-cross class), Red Falcon Paladin (but only for ˝ Paladin level turns per day), Ascetic Mage (but that requires Sorc levels), meh.
If you go with lighter armor, it might work but I just don't know how that'd work out.
I really don't see Lancelot from the Arthurian myth as a Paladin. A Fighter or another such class would fit him much better, I think. Galahad I could see as a Paladin, because he was so pure of heart. But Lancelot was just a particularily proficient and famous knight.
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Various things which might help make you "more or less invincible in honest melee combat" - note that I personally would never use a few of these because they are so cheesy and broken:
Starmantle Cloak: Grants immunity to non-magical weapons, and DC 15 Reflex Save to take half damage from magic weapons. Thus if you get Evasion (which you can purchase with a Ring or with 2 Feats) and can reliably make a DC 15 Reflex Save, you're basically immune to weapon damage. BoED pg 116, 132,000 gp.
Saint Template: +2 Con, +2 Wis, +4 Cha, Fast Healing = 1/2 HD, Damage Reduction that improves with HD, constant Circle of Protection and Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Wis bonus to AC, Fire Resistance 10, Immunity to Acid, Cold, Electricity, and Petrification, and a bunch of other perks. +2 LA. Book of Exalted Deeds.
Tabard of Valor: When reduced to 50% hit points or less, you gain Mettle. If you already have Mettle (which you can get various ways), you gain Improved Mettle, which works just like Improved Evasion, but for Will and Fort Saves. So you're mostly immune to most Will and Fort Save effects when below 50% hit points. 16,000 gp, Complete Champion pg 142.
Incarnate: Generally overlooked because of his 10/20 BAB and hard to understand mechanics - this class is chock full of very potent defensive abilities. And most of the best ones become available at level 1 or 2. Spell Resistance, Damage Reduction, AC buff, Energy Resistance, massive bonus hit points, retributive damage, Evasion, Deflect Arrows multiple times per round, and more. Works particularly well in Gestalt. Magic of Incarnum.
Crusader: Basically the fixed Paladin geared toward tanking. The basic combo of Stone Power Feat + Divine Spirit stance + Steely Resolve class ability makes you almost impossible to kill in a strait melee fight at level 5 or lower. Tome of Battle.
Mongrelfolk: Medium, +4 Con ,-2 Int, -4 Cha, 30 ft, lots of minor benefits. Although the Cha penalty sucks, if you end up going with a non-Cha based class, this is the highest Con bonus available for a +0 LA race. Races of Destiny. (And you can tack the Dragonborn +0 LA semi-template on top for another +2 Con/-2 Dex, Races of the Dragon).
Karmic healing combos: There are various ways to pull this off, with the most strait forward being Psychic Warrior (Claws of the Beast/Vampire and Share Pain/Hostile Empathic Transfer) and/or Binder (Dahlver-Nar vestige + various magic items). But the general idea is to have some form of healing (for you) which is triggered by attacks, combined with some form of shared pain (so that your enemy takes damage whenever they hit you).
Hellreaver: PrC that grants Mettle, immunity to Fear, and the ability to heal 10/20/30 hit points (depending on your level) to yourself or any Good ally within 10 feet every round of combat as a Swift action pretty much every round of every combat. Fiendish Codex II.
Fearless Destiny feat: Once per day when you are reduced to -10 or fewer hit points, you are instead reduced to -9 and stable. Races of Destiny pg 152.
No, Lancelot wasn't as pure of heart as galahad, but he specifically was AWESOME at combat (like, the best) and good at talking with people/getting stuff from people.
A basic fighter in DnD is not good at combat. Sadly.
If this was Tome or something, a Fighter might be a good place to start. But in 3.5, going Fighter is a terrible idea.
Since he's specifically handsome manliness, cha-based fighting styles would probably be the way to go in 3.5. So stack cha on stuff, have a feat combo that lets him defeat people in duels, have a gimongous AC.
No, Lancelot wasn't as pure of heart as galahad, but he specifically was AWESOME at combat (like, the best) and good at talking with people/getting stuff from people.
A basic fighter in DnD is not good at combat. Sadly.
If this was Tome or something, a Fighter might be a good place to start. But in 3.5, going Fighter is a terrible idea.
Since he's specifically handsome manliness, cha-based fighting styles would probably be the way to go in 3.5. So stack cha on stuff, have a feat combo that lets him defeat people in duels, have a gimongous AC.
Agreed. Lancelot was nothing short of entirely badass. I doubt even Warblade can do him justice. You would have to do some crazy stuff to make a good Lancelot.
You know, the original Paladins were a (legendary) group of twelve devout warriors that served and protected Charlemagne.
Some of these paladins were:
-Turpin, the Archbishop of Reims, a warrior-priest who could spill your brains AND make miracles thanks to his faith.
-Oigier the Dane, a badass viking.
-Huon of Bordeaux, a knight who was pal with Oberon, the fey king, who helped him to complete a quest for atonement.
-Fierabras, a 15-foot-tall andalusian giant prince.
-Renaud de Montauban, a devout knight and crusader who owned a magical horse.
-Ganelon, whose resentement made him fall and betray Charlemagne.
-Roland, the reckless nephew of Charlemagne.
-Olivier, the wise and even-tempered advisor of Roland.
As you can see, even the original paladins were very different to each other. They could easily make an adventuring party themselves.
Most of those originals paladins were devout but proud and often resentful, and sometimes killed people they shouldn't when their anger was aroused. They sometimes behaved almost childishly (but we are speaking of homicidal children here) when they felt insulted, but on the other hand, were able to go to great lengths to earn forgiveness for their failures.
Last edited by Clistenes : 11-19-2012 at 05:03 PM.
Charlemagne would be level 12. Everyone else would be level 6. 'Charlemagne - The Life and Travaules Thereof'.
To be fair, at the time, unanswered insults to honour were seen as a sign of weakness, which meant you were fair game (unknightly, not a warrior, not worth being a nobleman - being a nobleman was based on willingness to fight - bravery). These days, culturally, we view it very differently (being willing to fight is a character flaw now - ability to socially manipulate is the new sign of social prestige). And sadly, i've yet to see a DnD game where the mores and cultural signifiers were not those of the modern day, despite the illogicality of such occurring in a world with magic and monsters and such.
For starters, I'll second several other people and say that Lancelot is DEFINITELY not a paladin, not even a 2-level dip. In Death of King Arthur at least, he is arrogant and short-sighted, and almost directly responsible for the collapse of the round table and the kingdom.
This tells me two things immediately: his is not purely motivated by good, and his wisdom score is nothing to brag about. Paladin is right out.
Since he is virtually unmatched in combat, I would make him straight warblade with phenomenal physical stats and a good charisma score (and 10 wisdom at most, possibly lower).
Iron heart, diamond mind, and white raven all fit him very well. It's going to be hard to make him a classic sword and board knight since that isn't a supported combat style in 3.5 (unfortunate, since it's the most effective melee style in history), but not impossible. I wouldn't feel too bad straying from a shield though, since Lancelot is the kind of warrior that grabs tree branches if he has to and lays the beat down anyways.
Feats I would consider:
power attack
cleave
imp disarm
imp sunder
imp trip
elusive target (yes the prereq suck but this is a great feat)
stormgaurd warrior
combat expertise
karmic strike/roblilar's gambit
Equipment:
+3 full plate
+3 mithral rider's shield
+2 valorous lance
+2 martial discipline (devoted spirit) longsword
Armbrands of might
Riding boots
Ring of protection +1
Belt of giant strenght +4
Amulet of health +2
Cloak of resistance +3
Warbeast legendary horse
+3 mithral breastplate barding
Horseshoes of Flame
Manouvers readied: Bonesplitting Strike, Mountain hammer, Elder Mountain Hammer, White Raven Tactics, Shield Block, Battle Leader's Charge
Others manouvers known: Leading the Attack
Active stance: Thicket of Blades
Other stances known: Leading the Charge
Last edited by docnessuno : 11-19-2012 at 05:35 PM.
The big guy. Not exactly an ubercharger, but probably as close as you can get in PF without resorting to cheese. Hits like a truck carrying several smaller trucks on a charge.
Less overwhelming on foot, but still a full-BAB full-plate-wearing Smite-Evil-ing badass.
No equipment is included in the build, but some things are obvious: Full plate, lance, shield, longsword, etc.
Cohort: Sir Galahad
Spoiler
Human Paladin (Holy Tactician) 9/Inheritor's Crusader 3/Oracle of Life 1
Ability Scores (20 point buy): Str 14, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 20
Traits: Sacred Touch, Armor Expert
Feats: Noble Scion (1st), Mounted Combat (Human 1st), Ride-By Attack (3rd), Shake it Off (Holy Tactician 3rd), Greater Mercy (5th), Ultimate Mercy (7th), Lookout (Holy Tactician 7th), Word of Healing (9th), Fearless Aura (11th), Spirited Charge (13th)
The non-combat Paladin. Makes everyone around him awesome. Shake it Off plus Battlefield Presence makes everyone happy. Fearless Aura is exactly what it sounds like. Life Link, Word of Healing and Ultimate Mercy mean nobody dies, ever. And if someone fails a Will save, Destroyer of Tyranny from Inheritor's Crusader will bring them right back to your side.
Requires some refluffing of Inheritor's Crusader, but that's a minor thing.
Followers:
Spoiler
Assumes a Leadership score of 25, which should be easy to maintain.
Feats: Mounted Combat (1st), Ride-By Attack (Human 1st), Lookout (Cavalier 1st), Spirited Charge (3rd), Shake it Off (Holy Tactician 3rd)
Tactics:
Spoiler
Obviously this is designed as a large-scale battlefield build, but I think it suits quite well.
Lookout feat, spread amongst this many followers, means SOMEONE is going to get a lucky 20 on a perception roll to see the enemy, meaning EVERYONE is able to act in the surprise round. As long as any two make their perception rolls, those two get to take a full-round action in the surprise round, which will be important below.
Lancelot and Galahad, having the Noble Scion feat, will likely be going first due to Cha to Initiative. Lancelot and any lucky high-rollers will delay their action until Galahad has gone.
Galahad uses his standard action to activate Battlefield Presence, giving everyone within 30 feet the use of the Cavalry Formation feat.
Lancelot will then come off delay, activating Battlefield Presence to give everyone within 30 feet the use of the Coordinated Charge feat.
Finally, one of those "Lucky 20 Perception" followers takes a full-round action to charge an enemy. Coordinated Charge lets EVERYONE ELSE expend an immediate action to also charge that same enemy. Cavalry Formation says they can move through each other's spaces to do so. Spirited Charge ensures that even the lowly level 2 followers are doing respectable damage on a hit. And with that many people all charging at once, you're likely to get at least a few hits even amongst the lower levels. Use Ride-By Attack to move past the enemy and set up a charge for the following round.
During the normal round, the 4th level followers each use a standard action to activate Battlefield Presence, giving Shake it Off to all allies, buffing all saves by +4. Another follower charges, triggering another Mass Charge; then everyone wheels around and charges AGAIN on their own initiative. This should decimate any non-ridiculous enemy force to the point where cleaning up is trivial.
Note that I haven't even gone into the 135 1st-level followers, or the 5th or 6th level ones; those would probably be archers, footmen etc, providing cover fire and support.
I think Lancelot would be a particularly Charismatic Fighter, myself; Galahad would be a straight-up Paladin. I'm not sure if Fighters can optimize for high Charisma, though, at least not without one or two dips.
Yeah, when I heard "Lancelot the Pure", I had to chuckle a bit, having remembered his...relationship to Guinevere. And some of her handmaidens, if those old medieval stories are to be believed.
As for a CHA based fighter, you can do it, but it is generally based around use of the Intimidate skill, which it generally fairly un-Lancelot like. The Knight class, on the other hand, perhaps coupled with the Fighter might make for a more fitting portrayal. Preferably with some levels in Cavalier.
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"Expect nothing. Prepare for anything"
"You inability to comprehend reality is no fault of reality"
"Truth is not subjective"
-Twilightwyrm
Last edited by Twilightwyrm : 11-20-2012 at 04:56 AM.
Equipment:
+3 full plate
+3 mithral rider's shield
+2 valorous lance
+2 martial discipline (devoted spirit) longsword
Armbrands of might
Riding boots
Ring of protection +1
Belt of giant strenght +4
Amulet of health +2
Cloak of resistance +3
Warbeast legendary horse
+3 mithral breastplate barding
Horseshoes of Flame
Manouvers readied: Bonesplitting Strike, Mountain hammer, Elder Mountain Hammer, White Raven Tactics, Shield Block, Battle Leader's Charge
Others manouvers known: Leading the Attack
Active stance: Thicket of Blades
Other stances known: Leading the Charge
For Lancelot, an unexpected (and Cha-synergistic) route may be Bard 1/Warblade 1/Crusader 1/Warblade +X/Master of 9 5, using Perform (Weapon Drill) as the Perform skill of choice, and Snowflake Wardance. You get Idiot Crusader melee skill, Warblade recovery, and a neat little trick discovered by Crasical. If you can splice Wall of Blades and the Diamond Mind save replacing Maneuvers onto the Crusader chassis, you become indestructible in melee. You inspire yourself and allies with how well you fight. It's something to consider, anyways.
__________________ Xykon avatar by Elagune. Innistrad, coming soon to a D&D 3.5 game near you!
Well, he certainly respects the institute of marriage and would never do anything inappropriate with the wife of the king he's vowed to serve.
Clearly Lancelot is the greatest paladin ever. Except for Jaime Lannister. Being a better paladin than Jaime Lannister is just impossible.
You know, the Arthurian Cycle, which was written to please the high nobility's tastes, shows how said high nobility would have liked their kings to be: lazy, ineffective passive figureheads that allowed their vassals to do as they pleased and whose most important function was to spend their subject's tax money entertaining their knights and nobles in their flashy, expensive court.
And Lancelot and Guinevere love story was written mostly to please ladies from the high nobility who had arranged marriages and fantasized about having affairs with young strapping knights (Chrétien de Troyes, for example, is said to have been a protegee of Marie of France, Countess of Champagne, who, like her mother, was one of the main proponents of courtly love literature).
I think it's funny when King Arthur is presented in modern works as a commoner-loving, just, righteous, good administrator, lawmaker. In the books his only important function is to stay on top and entertain the nobility. The peasants are all your tipical medieval serfs and villains, robber barons do as they please unless the nobility is affected by their actions, and when somebody ask for help, King Arthur just ask "could somebody around here take care of that?" and a single knight usually steps and goes alone to fix the problem on his own.
As for Lancelot, everything has been said. He wasn't a good man by modern standards.
It's worth noting that Lancelot is also called "le chevalier mal fait" or the ill-made knight. T.H. White interpreted that as Lancelot not being all that handsome in his "The once and future king".
To him there was no wonder magic had to be involved to make the love between Lancelot and Guinevere blossom.
Technicly, the original Paladins were French knights who fought for gold, rather than land and were identified by the guilt-leaf adorning their armour.
Technicly, the original Paladins were French knights who fought for gold, rather than land and were identified by the guilt-leaf adorning their armour.
The more you know.
Yes, I already spoke about them earlier. The Twelve Paladins, the elite Royal Guards of Charlemagne, sort of like ASOIAF's Kingsguard. "Paladin" comes from "Palatinus", which were high-level officials attached to the royal court.
But, while they were kept by the king, the Twelve Paladins weren't mercenaries, they fought mostly for honor.
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Build Lancelot, the original paladin
