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  1. - Top - End - #751
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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    The problem with this argument is that level of scientific principle just -can't- work within the framework of D&D. That a given material plane world is a planet hanging in space in an orbit around a star simply isn't a given.

    Applying special relativity to a world where completely non-magical solid fire exists seems suspect at best.
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  2. - Top - End - #752
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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Answerer View Post
    Someone standing on a rotating and revolving planet is not in an inertial reference frame (or, rather, they are constantly shifting from one inertial reference frame to the other). An inertial reference frame is one without acceleration; rotation and revolution both require acceleration.


    Actually, special relativity is the branch of science that talks about this the most, but what I'm talking about remains true even under classical mechanics. A rotating and revolving planet has both velocity and acceleration in considerable quantity.

    Yes, some settings specify motionless planes rather than planets, but others explicitly don't. AFAIK, most of the Material Planes out there are globes that rotate and revolve around a star.


    I am so glad someone caught where that was leading.
    AFAIK most settings make no mention whatsoever about whether they're planets orbiting a star, discs on the backs of giant turtles, the interior of a massive, hollow sphere with a star in the middle, etc.

    Assuming a planet orbiting a star is taking the line about things working like they do IRL in absence of a rule changing it farther than it was ever intended to go. You could even go with the classicist view of the world of the campaign setting being the center of its universe with everything else orbiting around the point it happens to sit on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
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  3. - Top - End - #753
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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    And with relativity, where no frame of reference is privileged, this would be absolutely correct, Kelb.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

  4. - Top - End - #754
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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    AFAIK most settings make no mention whatsoever about whether they're planets orbiting a star, discs on the backs of giant turtles, the interior of a massive, hollow sphere with a star in the middle, etc.

    Assuming a planet orbiting a star is taking the line about things working like they do IRL in absence of a rule changing it farther than it was ever intended to go. You could even go with the classicist view of the world of the campaign setting being the center of its universe with everything else orbiting around the point it happens to sit on.
    just a note, im pretty the Prime Material Planes that count as official are stated to be planets.
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  5. - Top - End - #755
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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    Toril is explicitly mentioned as orbiting a star, as is the Oerth. I don't know about Eberron; more attention is payed to its moons and ring than its star (who cares about a star? 13-1 moons and a ring system, dude!). The Hollow World is, of course, a hollow world with a small star at its center. If I recall correctly, its surface either went undescribed, OR it was assumed to be the Oerth, which was mentioned above.

    Sigil is a plane unto itself; Spelljammer generally assumed stars and planets, but not always; I'm not sure if it was ever detailed in Dark Sun (2nd Edition or 4E) or the Points of Light setting for 4E; and I don't know about Mystara.

    I think that's all the official settings.
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2013-01-15 at 05:24 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #756
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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows View Post
    Toril is explicitly mentioned as orbiting a star, as is the Oerth.
    Oerth is stationary, and the star moves around it.

    Krynn is also a planetary system.

  7. - Top - End - #757
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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie_p View Post
    And with relativity, where no frame of reference is privileged, this would be absolutely correct, Kelb.
    Careful; no inertial reference frame is privileged. An accelerating frame is distinguishable from an inertial frame, so they are not equivalent. You cannot stand on an accelerating frame and assume everything else is accelerating around you; your own acceleration can be measured.

  8. - Top - End - #758
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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    So, the gist of this thread seems to be "Why play anything else? Because relativity."

  9. - Top - End - #759
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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Answerer View Post
    Careful; no inertial reference frame is privileged. An accelerating frame is distinguishable from an inertial frame, so they are not equivalent. You cannot stand on an accelerating frame and assume everything else is accelerating around you; your own acceleration can be measured.
    But since everything in real life is accelerating (orbits, galaxies, great attractor, etc), then there is no frame of reference?

    It has been a really long time since I read physics, I've forgotten most of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So now you're claiming that spellcasting "lacks a clear, supernatural element?" Being supernatural is literally the only point of magic.

  10. - Top - End - #760
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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    Quote Originally Posted by RFLS View Post
    So, the gist of this thread seems to be "Why play anything else? Because relativity."
    Just this most recent tangent.

    The overall message of the thread is the same as it is every other time this topic has ever come up.

    Why play anything that isn't T1?
    • Because you find lower tier classes entertaining to build and play
    • Because winning is not only -not- the object of the game but usually impossible to actually accomplish
    • Because your DM may not allow the option. Low-op groups banning the T1's as they begin to learn the intricacies of optimization is not uncommon
    • Because playing a T1 to its potential is much more difficult and time consuming than doing the same with lower tier classes
    • Several other things I've likely forgotten
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
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  11. - Top - End - #761
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Why play anything that isn't T1?
    • Because you find lower tier classes entertaining to build and play
    • Because winning is not only -not- the object of the game but usually impossible to actually accomplish
    • Because your DM may not allow the option. Low-op groups banning the T1's as they begin to learn the intricacies of optimization is not uncommon
    • Because playing a T1 to its potential is much more difficult and time consuming than doing the same with lower tier classes
    • Several other things I've likely forgotten
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  12. - Top - End - #762
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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Just this most recent tangent.

    The overall message of the thread is the same as it is every other time this topic has ever come up.

    Why play anything that isn't T1?
    • Because you find lower tier classes entertaining to build and play
    • Because winning is not only -not- the object of the game but usually impossible to actually accomplish
    • Because your DM may not allow the option. Low-op groups banning the T1's as they begin to learn the intricacies of optimization is not uncommon
    • Because playing a T1 to its potential is much more difficult and time consuming than doing the same with lower tier classes
    • Several other things I've likely forgotten
    * Because optimisation through increasing your character's capabilities on the character sheet is an inefficient method of optimisation that can often be counterproductive.

    Compare two characters - one is a Tier 4 character that is well integrated into the game, and has capabilities that interact well in a fashion that is well balanced both with the other characters and the game world. The other in Pun-Pun. We all know which is a higher Tier character, but which will be able to achieve more in an actual game? Because one of those two games isn't going to last long enough for you to do anything at all.

  13. - Top - End - #763
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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    Pun-pun is way too extreme to even be used as a Tier1 example though. (maybe it was a joke?)

    The versatility and power is still a grand factor in even "none-min-maxed" more or less core Tier 1's.

    I'm not talking about being unbeatable, just about being fit to handle "all" situations\roles in a game by just being one of a handful of different classes.
    Last edited by Norin; 2013-01-16 at 09:07 AM.
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  14. - Top - End - #764
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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    Pun-pun's power isn't really based on his character class, so he has nothing to do with the tier system. Your hyperbole does not make a sensible argument, and just makes you look silly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  15. - Top - End - #765
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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Togo View Post
    * Because optimisation through increasing your character's capabilities on the character sheet is an inefficient method of optimisation that can often be counterproductive.

    Compare two characters - one is a Tier 4 character that is well integrated into the game, and has capabilities that interact well in a fashion that is well balanced both with the other characters and the game world. The other in Pun-Pun. We all know which is a higher Tier character, but which will be able to achieve more in an actual game? Because one of those two games isn't going to last long enough for you to do anything at all.
    As I see it, optimizing to "win" is just one branch of optimization. Players also optimize for "fun". Why play a Tier 1 if you will be bored a miserable? Some player like to experiment and learn the game on their own. They optimize learning how different strategies work. Some players just like swinging swords every round.

  16. - Top - End - #766
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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    I like to play wizards because they're magical. They don't need to be insanely powerful to be magical. And while they should be complicated, they could stand to be a damn sight less so.

    Conversely, I play fighters so I can be a tough no-nonsense badass, and if the rules say that isn't what happens when I write "fighter" on my sheet, then screw the rules. Fighters should always be less complex than wizards, but they don't need to be quite as simple as they are.

    Why play anything else? Because there's everything else. I won't consider my D&D career finished until I've played danged near every class, and all the races I don't find painfully stupid, in multiple variations of each. It may not quite actually happen in terms of actual play, but I plan to at least endeavor to log hundreds of characters and see the entire experience from every angle possible. Only playing Tier 1s is like only eating in five-star restaurants...even if you can afford such a diet, gorrammit sometimes I just want a cheeseburger and some frogurt. Why limit yourself?

  17. - Top - End - #767
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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Conversely, I play fighters so I can be a tough no-nonsense badass, and if the rules say that isn't what happens when I write "fighter" on my sheet, then screw the rules.
    This does not make sense to me. How can you "play fighters so you can be a tough badass" if they aren't that? If you want to play a badass, and fighters aren't, then doesn't it make more sense to play something else that actually is a no-nonsense badass (and thus fits your character concept better) rather than try and go against the system?
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  18. - Top - End - #768
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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    And that's why fighter builds usually include more ToB dips than they do actual levels of Fighter. The core class is just boring.

  19. - Top - End - #769
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    This does not make sense to me. How can you "play fighters so you can be a tough badass" if they aren't that? If you want to play a badass, and fighters aren't, then doesn't it make more sense to play something else that actually is a no-nonsense badass (and thus fits your character concept better) rather than try and go against the system?
    It's question of frame of reference. Fighter 20 is a very badass if you compare it to regular humans. His not a badass when you compare it to stronger level 20 characters.

    It's like a sword is a dangerous weapon. When you compare it to bare fists. If you compare it to an a-bomb...

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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    Quote Originally Posted by ahenobarbi View Post
    It's question of frame of reference. Fighter 20 is a very badass if you compare it to regular humans. His not a badass when you compare it to stronger level 20 characters.

    It's like a sword is a dangerous weapon. When you compare it to bare fists. If you compare it to an a-bomb...
    And if all you fight is 1st level Commoners, I'm sure that makes everything work fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  21. - Top - End - #771
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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    Or you could just fix the fighter and the wizard and then have them work the way they were intended to...that's an option...

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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    How were they intended to work?
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  23. - Top - End - #773
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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    How were they intended to work?
    Also, how could you 'just fix' them?

  24. - Top - End - #774
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    tongue Re: Why play anything else?

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    How were they intended to work?
    Wield [weapon] -> hit monster with said weapon repeatedly in different ways -> manage to do this for enough rounds without dying to achieve an end result = Dead monster

    Add in the mix a cup of feats to make this happen in slightly different ways, a spoon of different equipment, a pinch of some versatility in combat - stir and bake for 1-20 levels.

    That's about it, right? Silly fighters...

    Quote Originally Posted by LordBlades View Post
    Also, how could you 'just fix' them?
    Make some strange new version of the fighter that uses stances and manouvers to achieve a more versatile and fun way to handle combat. Now that would be something, right?
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  25. - Top - End - #775
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    And if all you fight is 1st level Commoners, I'm sure that makes everything work fine.
    Yup. More or less what I meant. Well you could also fight blasters, high level commoners, stupid monsters...

  26. - Top - End - #776
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    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    How were they intended to work?
    Fighter fights monsters and acts as a shield wall for the wizard who are glass cannons: powerful and able to solve a variety of problems, but extraordinarily squishy and easy to take down if you get into melee range.

    Also, balanced - that meaning, that a Fighter 20 and a Wizard 20 were intended to be on roughly even terms. They're not, but they're supposed to be. This involves giving the fighter more options, yes, but it also involves taking options away from the wizards, something that people seem to forget.

    Personally I cut 8th and 9th level spells, changed spell progression so that a new spell level is gained at 3rd and every 3 levels thereafter, capping at 7th-level spells at 18th level (instead of 2nd and every 2 levels thereafter), drastically reduced spell ranges while simultaneously examining each spell, ensure that there is no such thing as "save or die" spells and that all spells allow both SR and saves (except magic missile which doesn't allow a save; SR still works, though); getting rid of XP costs for spells and replacing them with GP costs that cuts into the wizard's WBL; and drastically limit their school options by forcing specialization and forcing which schools ban which other schools ahead of time such that it's impossible to ever get a wizard that can cast both Conjuration and Transmutation, because screw that.

    Further wizards can only cast spells from their specialized school or universal spells unless they take a feat which lets them branch out into one additional school per time they take the feat. Because they're using up feat slots, though, it cuts down on the amount of Item Creation or Metamagic shennanigans they can do.

    Also, how could you 'just fix' them?
    Six weeks. But that we me just working by myself, scouring the Internet (often Pathfinder) for the best fixes and ideas that I could find and implementing them, by myself. If I'd had help I could have been done in a week, tops. Considering the effort some people pour into their homebrew campaign settings, I don't think six weeks is actually all that much time.
    Last edited by Rogue Shadows; 2013-01-16 at 03:24 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #777
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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    Quote Originally Posted by ahenobarbi View Post
    Yup. More or less what I meant. Well you could also fight blasters, high level commoners, stupid monsters...
    I'm not sure you can really consider yourself a badass if all of your opponents are hobbled like that, while your equal-level friends fight actually awesome things.
    Last edited by Flickerdart; 2013-01-16 at 03:23 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  28. - Top - End - #778
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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    You could always just say "You may only have up to half your levels in wizard levels". It would suck, but would work.

    Norin said: Make some strange new version of the fighter that uses stances and manouvers to achieve a more versatile and fun way to handle combat. Now that would be something, right?

    That just means ToB classes.

    Instead of applying fixes, i think it is better to rebuild the classes from the ground up. The Fixes you suggest just mess around with the two classes and doesn't address the issue or cause of the problem.

    If you rebuild them anew, you can remove the problem or weaken it more. The problem still won't go away though.

    The Tier induced system was bad game design, which Wotc allowed for older players (ie earlier edition players) who had to have their cake and eat it too. Personally, i would have prefered that they had changed things up. The system needs improvement to me.

    Wotc tried to use fixes for 4e and it didn't work. the system needs to be rebuilt, seriously.
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  29. - Top - End - #779
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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    Wotc tried to use fixes for 4e and it didn't work. the system needs to be rebuilt, seriously.
    What do you mean by it didn't work? It's certainly a lot more balanced, mainly because they got rid of spellcasting and turned every class into ToB with different flavor. Of course, more balanced != more fun.

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    Default Re: Why play anything else?

    Everyone complained that they dumbed down the wizard too much, complained that the classes were now copies of each other, and complained that it wasn't D&D anymore for X reason.

    Yes, 4E was more balanced, but it did crash as a game in that alot of people whined about it and what it did. I personally think it was a good attempt, but it pushed things around a little too much. The powers stuff and such got people calling 4E warcraft or something.

    I found the edition wars extremely enertaining because of the craziness involved. Pages and threads filled with upset people about a game! D&D is just a game, not always a good one, but still a game. I guess i don't just obsess over it like people here.

    I didn't have any problems with 4E because it looked to be easier to DM for than 3.5 which is crappy to DM for. Before anybody starts saying crap about how that is not true, let make this one point: The monsters are not designed to consume more than 20% of the party's resources and are deliberately tweaked to be worthless. This is from my DMing experience. Which has put me off DMing anything 3.5 again, or atleast until i can find a completely different gaming group that doesn't have schedule clashes with my schedule.
    Last edited by russdm; 2013-01-16 at 04:30 PM.
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