OOTS #872 - The Discussion Thread

[Proud Tortoise]

I predict that Malack will pin Durkon, allowing for a last-second rescue by Belkar. But yeah, Durkon was kind of a jerk in this sequence. I mean, he was almost as bad as Miko.

[EatAtEmrakuls]

Malack is probably my favorite villain now.

[Kish]

Durkon. NOOOO!
Now the prophecy has been fulfilled. Or it might be either his "death" of his past self which means character change or bringing back dead belkar, which the prophet said "Posthumously".

No one has died yet. (Well, unless you count Malack, who died years ago.)

...And you really can drop the random spoiler boxes anytime, y'know.

[Adama]

Question for everyone, what would you do as Durkon?

Make sure Malack knows that the Gates falling would destroy the entire universe. Evil or not, Vampire or not, almost every corporeal being has a vested interest in that not happening. That goes triple for Tarquin and Malack, who've spent years, maybe decades, achieving high positions in the western continent. They are, if not allies of the OOTS, then natural enemies of Xykon, Redcloak, and anyone who would endanger the gates.

[JackRackham]

I expect this may have been brought up by now, but Durkon is not as screwed as everyone seems to think. Even if, as is widely assumed, Malack has as many or more cleric levels than Durkon (we only really know he's level 11 or higher), and even with the advantages of Vampirism, the two are both so powerful that it would come down to dice rolls on paper (ie, rule of awesome in-comic).

In addition, he is vulnerable to all of Durkon's healing magic, which he can cast spontaneously from every slot, and Durkon has protection from his best direct-damage spells. True, one dispel could fix that, but one low-level spell from Durkon gives him melee support (this would be the most strategic start to the battle, incidentally). The biggest disadvantage Durkon has, really, is the spell slots he's already used, which may be considerable. I don't care to count at the moment.

[zimmerwald1915]

They are, if not allies of the OOTS, then natural enemies of Xykon, Redcloak, and anyone who would endanger the gates.

There's a very simple way of making sure Xykon leaves the Western Continent alone: destroy the Gate. Remember, Tarquin "knows" Elan's team will succeed in their quest against their current villain - after all, if they do not, how will Elan be around to kill Tarquin? Given that as long as the Gate stands, it will be a magnet for Xykon, that Xykon is a destabilizing and destructive force capable of Epic-level collateral damage, and that Xykon will eventually be defeated (not, of course, without Epic-level collateral damage), isn't it actually in Tarquin's interest to get him and Elan's team off the continent?

[bravebonebook]

I cannot believe after 872 comics that people on here would actually want to see Durkon killed in this battle. I know the OoTS members have their flaws and do some crazy things BUT THEY'RE THE GOOD GUYS! Half the fun is watching them bumble and stumble into every trap, plot device and melee possible. They seem to me to be the equivalent of "The Fellowship of the Three Stooges' Ring". And Malack is very interesting BUT he's an evil vampire. Controlled, yes. Emily Post mannered, yes. Great conversationist, yes. But at any moment he wants, he could become a raging blood-drinking machine! Of course, Durkon would have to stop him or die trying, if not now then later. The OoTS are the HEROES; who wouldn't be cheering for them??

{SCRUBBED} Potential allies or neutral parties now but rise up later to cause some serious, dangerous pains in your ***!!!

[rgrekejin]

They are magical, however.

True, but in order to bypass a vampire's damage reduction, they'd need to be both magic and silver.

[Luminous Umbra]

It hardly matters though. Unless those daggers are silvers (they arent) then he can barely scratch Malack. Thats the problem with relying on speed and two weapons fighting instead of strength and Power Attack: anything with DR totally screws you over. Belkar would be far more usefull by going to fetch Roy then attacking Malack.

As I already had to prove many times in the Belkar vs Malack thread, Belkar was already hopelessly outmatched against normal living lizard Malack. Against vampire Malack with his DR 10 though? Malack can very safely ignore Belkar.

True, his daggers would certainly be useless against Malack. What I'm suggesting is that Belkar wouldn't fight in that way, as he has shown in the past that he will not usually directly fight an opponent that has defeated him in such a fight. One possibility could be to use the wooden stake method, or perhaps a trap of some sort like he did with Miko. The point is, Belkar is a wild card and it is not safe to assume that he is useless.

As a side note, assuming Malack doesn't defeat him instantly, Durkon does have a way to get him and Belkar to safety: Use his holy symbol to repel Malack, which is a weakness of all vampires. Doing this keeps Malack five feet away from him as a standard action. This prevents Malack from using touch attacks, and could allow Durkon and Belkar to escape. Granted, Malack still has ranged spells, but it's better than nothing.

[Psyren]

Make sure Malack knows that the Gates falling would destroy the entire universe. Evil or not, Vampire or not, almost every corporeal being has a vested interest in that not happening. That goes triple for Tarquin and Malack, who've spent years, maybe decades, achieving high positions in the western continent. They are, if not allies of the OOTS, then natural enemies of Xykon, Redcloak, and anyone who would endanger the gates.

Knowing Malack, he would just say it's better to let his buddy Tarquin control them then. No matter how disastrous that would prove when X came calling. (Tarquin strikes me as the sort who would cut his losses in seconds rather than delay Team Evil for a few crucial seconds. He also wouldn't bother smashing the Gate.)

[Oscaver]

Is this the end of zombie shakespeare?

or perhaps the start of vampire Belkar?

I know It's been said before. I just couldn't resist.

[Forum Explorer]

Well this is very cool.

The fight actually looks pretty even and I'm saddened by Durkon's refusal to negotiate. They could really use Malak's help against Xykon and learning the truth about the gates would be enough to remove Tarquin from the fight as well.


I also get the feeling that the OotS is making the classic error of clearing out all the traps/defenses and letting the BBEG to sweep in and take the prize.

[elros]

Things I loved about this comic:
1) the quick update! More comic + less waiting =
2) Durkon showing that he has low charisma. Even though Diplomacy is a class skill for clerics, he must not have spent many skill points on it.
3) More proof that evil does not have to be dumb or unlikeable. Kudos to the Giant for making Malack appear sad before he attacks. Also for making Malack try everything to avoid the fight.

I really like how the Giant shows evil characters as trying to get along with others but being rejected by good because of their alignments. Somehow the Giant has made interesting villains that the reader can enjoy and relate to, and yet the villains are not more interesting than the protagonists. That balance is rarely achieved by writers!

[Forikroder]

Things I loved about this comic:
1) the quick update! More comic + less waiting =
2) Durkon showing that he has low charisma. Even though Diplomacy is a class skill for clerics, he must not have spent many skill points on it.
3) More proof that evil does not have to be dumb or unlikeable. Kudos to the Giant for making Malack appear sad before he attacks. Also for making Malack try everything to avoid the fight.

I really like how the Giant shows evil characters as trying to get along with others but being rejected by good because of their alignments. Somehow the Giant has made interesting villains that the reader can enjoy and relate to, and yet the villains are not more interesting than the protagonists. That balance is rarely achieved by writers!

Durkon is not refusing Malack because of his alignment but his actions

[LadyEowyn]

I like Malack as a character, and it's too bad that he and Durkon have to fight, but I don't think Durkon really had any other options here. As he said, sitting out the fight or agreeing not to harm Malack even if Malack attacked his team members isn't something he could do.

And telling Malack about the Gate would be, in the context of what Durkon knows, highly unwise. He doesn't know how much Nale has told Tarquin and Malack about the Gates, and he does know that Malack is working with Tarquin and is a close friend of Tarquin and that Tarquin is a power-hungry dictator who would love to get his hands on the power that the Gates hold. So telling Malack anything more about them could easily be dangerous.

(I really want to see a Malack-Xykon argument-and-fight now, though. Just to address the notion of all undead being basically the same. In personality terms they're practically opposite. [Yes, Malack would probably get his ass kicked. There would still be room for some interesting dualism.])

[The Giant]

OK, just to be clear as can be, since this is the second time I'm addressing it:

NO REAL-WORLD HISTORICAL OR POLITICAL REFERENCES.

Consider this an official Warning for the entire thread. The next person who posts a real-world reference will get an Infraction, whether or not they have ever gotten a Warning for Inappropriate Topic before. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

Got it?

Everyone else, carry on. Sorry for the interruption.

[Living Oxymoron]

And here we go again.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html

[Anyr]

Given Malack's proclivity for spell research, It wouldn't surprise me to learn that he has a 'Life Ward' buff prepared.

[dtilque]

Hm, I think an important question here is if mass death ward is centered on the caster or the target.

If it centers on caster, then it really must have a sizable AoE for Durkon, and thus he will also be protected from Malack's negative energy attacks.

If it is only centered on target, but has a larger range than it's AoE... Durkon may be in some trouble.

It's neither. All that's required is that "no two [beings selected] can be more than 30 ft. apart". Or in other words, there's some sphere of 30 feet diameter which all the targetted beings are within. The center of that sphere can be anywhere within the spell's range, which is probably 25 feet plus 5 ft/2 levels (I'm going by other Mass spells here, since Mass Death Ward is not in the on-line SRD pages). One could cast it to include flying beings or beings in a pit if they are close enough to the other targets.

[Sir_Leorik]

Durkon the Bigot offers not one compromise, such as mutual team withdrawal, even though time to heal Belkar and find V probably advantage the Order.

Was Roy a bigot when he turned down Xykon's offer of a "Mulligan" so Xykon could conquer Azure City and sieze the gate? Roy put it more eloquently, but he and Durkon both basically told an Undead villain to stuff the moral compromise being offered where the sun don't shine.

[Sir_Leorik]

Hmph. You can tell which cleric put ranks into Diplomacy and which cleric didn't.

Charisma is Durkon's dump stat, while all of Tarquin's band of adventurers seem to have high Charisma scores and many ranks in Diplomacy, including Malack. They kind of need to, in order to pull off their scheme for so many years.

[Forikroder]

I predict that Malack will pin Durkon, allowing for a last-second rescue by Belkar. But yeah, Durkon was kind of a jerk in this sequence. I mean, he was almost as bad as Miko.

not really

Miko was uncompromising based on her assumptions which differed greatly from fact

Durkon based his stance on fact and didnt compromise

so while hes as stubborn as Miko he at least understand the situation

[Sir_Leorik]

Make sure Malack knows that the Gates falling would destroy the entire universe. Evil or not, Vampire or not, almost every corporeal being has a vested interest in that not happening. That goes triple for Tarquin and Malack, who've spent years, maybe decades, achieving high positions in the western continent. They are, if not allies of the OOTS, then natural enemies of Xykon, Redcloak, and anyone who would endanger the gates.

This is the only reasonable suggestion I've heard all day to the insistent refrain that Durkon should have negotiated. And even then there was no guarantee that he could trust Malack not to double cross the OotS. Durkon summed up, as eloquently as he could, why he could not take that risk. Besides even if Malack would not double cross the Order, heck even if Tarquin kept his word, Nale is known to betray and double cross everyone just out of spite. Even if Durkon felt he could trust a Vampire, there was no way he'd trust Nale.

[Forikroder]

This is the only reasonable suggestion I've heard all day to the insistent refrain that Durkon should have negotiated. And even then there was no guarantee that he could trust Malack not to double cross the OotS. Durkon summed up, as eloquently as he could, why he could not take that risk. Besides even if Malack would not double cross the Order, heck even if Tarquin kept his word, Nale is known to betray and double cross everyone just out of spite. Even if Durkon felt he could trust a Vampire, there was no way he'd trust Nale.

i really wonder what kind of backstory Durkon has with the undead, he really ha an abnormally high level of hate for them

[Rick_DW]

In all my years of playing a LG character, negotiating with a vampire is right out, because all vampires are by definition EVIL, and anything they offer you has to be suspect. They've been alive forever, are probably smarter and more knowledgeable than you, and because they're EVIL they'll lie, cheat and kill to create the situation they want. Note: It doesn't mean they can't be perfectly likeable characters ~ but that's because that's what they want to appear to you as.

Geez people, it's a D&D VAMPIRE. Durkon's a LG cleric that hates undead. He cannot give a known vampire any kind of benefit of the doubt.

Also, while we can sit here and talk about intellectual compromises, Durkon is in a combat situation, just cast a 7th-level spell to save his teammate from being level-drained, and is shocked and probably disgusted by his "friend" turning out to be undead, which he despises with a passion. There's emotion in that scene, all on Durkon. You want him to be thinking parley? That's absurd.

Frankly, he really should have fired off a Turn while Malack was offering the ridiculous "compromises" that only benefitted Tarquin & Co. Rooting here for Durkon to blast the lizard into dust, never to grace an OOTS strip again.

[Sir_Leorik]

In all my years of playing a LG character, negotiating with a vampire is right out, because all vampires are by definition EVIL, and anything they offer you has to be suspect. They've been alive forever, are probably smarter and more knowledgeable than you, and because they're EVIL they'll lie, cheat and kill to create the situation they want. Note: It doesn't mean they can't be perfectly likeable characters ~ but that's because that's what they want to appear to you as.

Geez people, it's a D&D VAMPIRE. Durkon's a LG cleric that hates undead. He cannot give a known vampire any kind of benefit of the doubt.

Also, while we can sit here and talk about intellectual compromises, Durkon is in a combat situation, just cast a 7th-level spell to save his teammate from being level-drained, and is shocked and probably disgusted by his "friend" turning out to be undead, which he despises with a passion. There's emotion in that scene, all on Durkon. You want him to be thinking parley? That's absurd.

Frankly, he really should have fired off a Turn while Malack was offering the ridiculous "compromises" that only benefitted Tarquin & Co. Rooting here for Durkon to blast the lizard into dust, never to grace an OOTS strip again.

You've never had a PC invited to dinner at Castle Ravenloft? You really should visit some time; Count Strahd serves a local plum brandy, called tuika, which is really sweet and has a high alcohol content. Unfortunately, due to design problems in the castle's renovation following the Count's expulsion of the Tergs from Barovia, the Count is unable to serve hot food in the dining room. After dinner, the Count often invites guests to the study, where he plays the organ, while Gargoyles, Strahd Zombies and Vampire Spawn attack. It truly is an experience to die for!

[Paseo H]

Frankly, he really should have fired off a Turn while Malack was offering the ridiculous "compromises" that only benefitted Tarquin & Co. Rooting here for Durkon to blast the lizard into dust, never to grace an OOTS strip again.

Well, despite what some might suspect, I wouldn't go that far. I like good villains. I'm just now more certain than ever that Malack is evil, and perhaps Evil if you look closely enough.

Honestly I can't wait to see the rest of Tarquin's friends.

[Forikroder]

In all my years of playing a LG character, negotiating with a vampire is right out, because all vampires are by definition EVIL, and anything they offer you has to be suspect. They've been alive forever, are probably smarter and more knowledgeable than you, and because they're EVIL they'll lie, cheat and kill to create the situation they want. Note: It doesn't mean they can't be perfectly likeable characters ~ but that's because that's what they want to appear to you as.

Geez people, it's a D&D VAMPIRE. Durkon's a LG cleric that hates undead. He cannot give a known vampire any kind of benefit of the doubt.

Also, while we can sit here and talk about intellectual compromises, Durkon is in a combat situation, just cast a 7th-level spell to save his teammate from being level-drained, and is shocked and probably disgusted by his "friend" turning out to be undead, which he despises with a passion. There's emotion in that scene, all on Durkon. You want him to be thinking parley? That's absurd.

Frankly, he really should have fired off a Turn while Malack was offering the ridiculous "compromises" that only benefitted Tarquin & Co. Rooting here for Durkon to blast the lizard into dust, never to grace an OOTS strip again.

jsut to nitpick, the giant didnt know MDW was a spell so we dont know what elvel Durkons version is

also the compromises were actually fairly lenient considering Malack was negotiating from a position of power

[Thanatosia]

I gotta admit, I'm kind of suprised at the level of support Malak is getting here. I fully agree Malak is a fascinating and interesting character, and I greatly enjoy him, but that doesn't mean blind support of everything he does.

As others have pointed out, his 'terms' were completely unacceptable. Quite frankly, as bluntly as Durkon put it, Malak is unacceptable. He is a Vampire living off an evil empire that attacked Durkon's Adventuring party caught red-handed (and red-fanged) in the middle of the act of attempting to convert a sentient being to undeath without his consent. There's no compromise to be had with that. Malak isn't just evil, he's a threat to the world and innocent people in it - and no mater how civil he's willing to talk to you, you can't just go your seperate ways and let him be if you're in Durkon's position. This isn't a case where live and let live is a valid solutions - Malak must be stopped.

I find abhorant the people trying to draw parallels between Miko and Durkon here. Miko was dealing with good people trying to do good things but blinded herself with paranoia and delusions of self granduer.... there is no self delusion here on Durkon's part.... Malak is clearly evil, and clearly needs to be stoped and cannot be allowed to just continue on his ways.

Even if you ignore the 'always evil' thing about vampires and credit Malak with free will and not just being an undead horror.... even if you buy his story about only drinking the blood of condemend prisoners and chose to overlook the morality involved of the nature of condemned prisoners in a social structure such as the empire of blood - Durkon caught him in the middle of attempting to convert an unwilling victem to vampirism. Game over right there, no negotions acceptable - forced vampiric conversion is an action well over the moral event horizon - malak is a proven monster that has to be put down.

[Forikroder]

I gotta admit, I'm kind of suprised at the level of support Malak is getting here. I fully agree Malak is a fascinating and interesting character, and I greatly enjoy him, but that doesn't mean blind support of everything he does.

As others have pointed out, his 'terms' were completely unacceptable. Quite frankly, as bluntly as Durkon put it, Malak is unacceptable. He is a Vampire living off an evil empire that attacked Durkon's Adventuring party caught red-handed (and red-fanged) in the middle of the act of attempting to convert a sentient being to undeath without his consent. There's no compromise to be had with that. Malak isn't just evil, he's a threat to the world and innocent people in it - and no mater how civil he's willing to talk to you, you can't just go your seperate ways and let him be if you're in Durkon's position. This isn't a case where live and let live is a valid solutions - Malak must be stopped.

I find abhorant the people trying to draw parallels between Miko and Durkon here. Miko was dealing with good people trying to do good things but blinded herself with paranoia and delusions of self granduer.... there is no self delusion here on Durkon's part.... Malak is clearly evil, and clearly needs to be stoped and cannot be allowed to just continue on his ways.

Even if you ignore the 'always evil' thing about vampires and credit Malak with free will and not just being an undead horror.... even if you buy his story about only drinking the blood of condemend prisoners and chose to ingore the morality involved of the nature of condemned prisoners in a social structure such as the empire of blood - Durkon caught him in the middle of attempting to convert an unwilling victem to vampirism. Game over right there, no negotions acceptable - malak is a proven monster that has to be put down.

Malack is alot like Tarquin, hes so evil he finds it impossible to understand the point of view of a good person, jsut like Tarquin didnt understand how Elan couldnt enjoy his surprise Malack cant understand how Durkon is refusing to abandon his friends/quest