OOTS #935 - The Discussion Thread

[Domino Quartz]

Spoiler

Show

We've seen people turned to stone and shrunk for transport before, and I'm sure there are a lot of other ways to transport allies without needing them to have their own horses or otherwise be obviously there. Tarquin is going to pull Thog out of his pocket and throw him into the middle of the fray as a distraction while he tries to finish off Roy.

No, because that would be stupid. And I don't mean it would be a stupid decision on Tarquin's part, but that a comic where that happens would be stupid.

[Rogar Demonblud]

(<-- the desert/war bit assumes that Laurin actually grew up in this region though ... which there is actually precious little to suggest though, come to think of it ... )

Given her rant on the elves and that she swears with a reference to a Western Pantheon goddess, it's a fair bet she's local.

Also, notice V's spell selection includes lots of things to lock down people you'd really rather not kill? Gives you an idea of the anticipated tactics for when the Order reached the pyramid and the Draketooth clan.

[bguy]

Agreed. Ignoring the fact that V had little reason to doubt Sabin, seeing how she has a personal vendetta against Tarquin's group, and she is currently the best source of information available (what, should she start using Invisibility because hey, Sabin might've lied about that too?), it's hard to believe that Rich himself would go out of his way to introduce that panel of him getting info from this "unreliable source", which immediately preceded the panels where V won the fight by relying on said source's info, just for @#$% and giggles.

I'm not saying that the information Sabine gave V was wrong, I'm saying it doesn't make much sense for V to have relied upon that information. Remember V has not been privy to all the information we as readers know about Sabine. V doesn't know that Sabine actually loved Nale. V doesn't even know that she helped Sabine in Azure City. All she knows is that Sabine is a literal incarnation of evil, who has repeatedly tried to murder her and her friends, and who works for an organization that has already tricked V once before. Furthermore, even within these last few comics, Sabine's information has proven to be either inaccurate or at least incomplete. Remember V believed that Team Tarquin had no long range spells. (Something Miron proved to be incorrect when he tried to break out the long range Horrid Wilting.) Thus Sabine gave at best incomplete information to V and as such it is pretty reckless for V to base her strategy on the word of a succubus with no magical training whose information had already proven itself to be unreliable. That it ultimately prevailed doesn't mean it was a good strategy. If I spend my life savings on lottery tickets and just happen to win the lottery, that doesn't mean that was an intelligent investment plan.

You'll notice that Laurin hit V with a power that looks like the stunning power that incapacitated Haley...and V not only survived it, but was able to cast afterword.

So basically Laurin forewent using a power we know she had (disintegrate) that targetted V's weakest save, and would have likely one shoted V on a successful hit, to instead use a much weaker power that targets V's best save, and that even on a successful hit would only affect V for a round or so. And then later on Laurin did the same thing again only she didn't even bother attacking V at all that time but instead went after V's harmless familar. That's not Laurin firing the machine gun at V. That's Laurin setting aside the machine gun in favor of a blow gun.

And again I don't necessarily have a problem with the character acting in this way. Like I already said, Laurin may have some compunction against personally killing living beings that explains why she was unwilling to use deadly force against V. But unless V specifically knew about that character weakness, her plan makes no sense, because V would otherwise have no way of knowing that Laurin would chose in the middle of a fight to the death to forego disintegrate in favor of giving her a one round migraine.

She used her "at least one disintegrate" to target Miron, and we don't know if she had another prepared. Even if she did, we all know how productive "why didn't Character X take Action Y" discussions are on these boards. Also, she did cast long-range evocations during the wormhole chase, including a lightning bolt that hurt Miron.

Yes, but as I pointed out, V had at least three opportunties to fire off that disintegrate against Laurin before she ended up using it on Miron. As for the long rang evocations, V only fired off one. But we know the chase went on for at least three other rounds because we saw at least three other wormholes open up between the lightning bolt and Team Tarquin actually catching the Order, so why wasn't V firing off further evocations during those rounds? Team Tarquin would still have been in range that whole time.

As for why didn't Charater X take Action Y discussions, I'm not criticizing the story for having V (and Laurin) fighting sub-optimally. I have no problem with the idea that characters won't always fight as smart as you might expect them to. I'm just disputing that V's strategy was all that clever or that it was the only or even the best option she had.

[TroubleBrewing]

Also, notice V's spell selection includes lots of things to lock down people you'd really rather not kill? Gives you an idea of the anticipated tactics for when the Order reached the pyramid and the Draketooth clan.

You know, I actually hadn't noticed that until just now.

[luagha]

The big 'problem' with Laurin/V's tactics is this:

"Why didn't they just Disintegrate each other until the other fell down?!?!"

One, it's boring. Two, we've already seen the ultimate battle of clerics and a Disintegrate-fest is just a phaser-battle from Star Trek. Three, it adds a to-hit touch attack roll into the mix where a miss leaves you terribly vulnerable in the casterfight; whereas the other spells they have been casting do not.

Neither V or Laurin are awesome at Touch AC, but also neither of them are exceptional at ray-style touch attacks.

[chibibar]

Well, at first I was disappointed to see this. Then I thought, this makes perfect sense. Barbarians and rabble fight to the bitter end. Highly intelligent strategic casters? They know when to fold 'em; this is why chess matches between good players rarely get to checkmate, because one player will concede long before then. Let's face it, if Laurin and her team were the type to fight until the last drop against an elf they don't even care about, they would never have controlled the whole desert region for such a long time.

And why should she believe V? Well, she's a scheming manipulator with likely good Sense Motive skills, and more to the point, a mind reader. V is known to have low charisma and pretty bad social skills, and probably couldn't bluff xis way out of a paper bag. It's not bluff, and Laurin knows it.

That's good tactics, and fitting to these characters. V is rapidly becoming a match for Roy in terms of tactics.

I agree. I would assume Team Tarquin have to be smart. They have been working with different "countries" to control the continent. You know when to fold, you know when to bluff, and you know when to go for the gold.

Tarquin right now is not in his "right of mind" He just lost his best friend and a very valuable asset ;) killed his son, and still think that Elan can do better. I guess Tarquin failed his sanity check ;)

[Tragak]

Also, notice V's spell selection includes lots of things to lock down people you'd really rather not kill? Gives you an idea of the anticipated tactics for when the Order reached the pyramid and the Draketooth clan.

Nice catch!

[DaggerPen]

Also, notice V's spell selection includes lots of things to lock down people you'd really rather not kill? Gives you an idea of the anticipated tactics for when the Order reached the pyramid and the Draketooth clan.

Joining in the "well spotted" comments here - that had totally gone over my head before.

[Liliet]

Wow. So this strip is even _yet_more_ awesome than I thought, because V chose a more peaceful way to end the fight. I thought of it as just a reasonable conservation of spells - V might need all 25 against Tarquin yet - but it's also character development.

I know that so long as it's just said by the author and not really obvious from the work itself it is not really canon, but I like this idea so much it's my headcanon now. V is consciously learning to end fights with something other than death, and this is so awesome.

Now I wonder if vir spell selection reflected merely the expectation of Draketooths, or also V's attempts to do something other than blast away?

(snipped because it was long, and I agree with it)

You did forget one other tidbit of awesomeness that I noticed right off the bat: how Haley seemed to lampshade the whole discussion about broken arms. She took that broken arm in stride!

I don't think the word "lampshade" means what you think it means. She just said that her love interest should pay more attention to the battle than to her injury. It is totally a trope, but not that one.


As for the rape jokes, I still don't understand how it's worse than other things V routinely does to vir enemies without even thinking.

[AutomatedTeller]

V could maybe have finished off Laurin, I dunno. But even if that happened, the Order would be facing an epic level fighter and V's spells would be quite depleted. Now, V still have 25 spells left to help fight Tarquin off. Plus, of course, cantrips...

[Math_Mage]

I'm not saying that the information Sabine gave V was wrong, I'm saying it doesn't make much sense for V to have relied upon that information. Remember V has not been privy to all the information we as readers know about Sabine. V doesn't know that Sabine actually loved Nale. V doesn't even know that she helped Sabine in Azure City. All she knows is that Sabine is a literal incarnation of evil, who has repeatedly tried to murder her and her friends, and who works for an organization that has already tricked V once before. Furthermore, even within these last few comics, Sabine's information has proven to be either inaccurate or at least incomplete. Remember V believed that Team Tarquin had no long range spells. (Something Miron proved to be incorrect when he tried to break out the long range Horrid Wilting.) Thus Sabine gave at best incomplete information to V and as such it is pretty reckless for V to base her strategy on the word of a succubus with no magical training whose information had already proven itself to be unreliable. That it ultimately prevailed doesn't mean it was a good strategy. If I spend my life savings on lottery tickets and just happen to win the lottery, that doesn't mean that was an intelligent investment plan.

-V can see Sabine's reaction to Nale's death.
-We skipped the part where Sabine makes her advice credible to V because it would have been boring for the readers. Just because it's not shown doesn't mean you can assume it isn't there.
-V's statement about long-range spells was tactically sound if factually not quite accurate; Miron wasn't planning on using Horrid Wilting to stop them, or he would have used it already.
-Sabine uses magic regularly. She may not have training; that doesn't mean she's ignorant.

So basically Laurin forewent using a power we know she had (disintegrate) that targetted V's weakest save, and would have likely one shoted V on a successful hit, to instead use a much weaker power that targets V's best save, and that even on a successful hit would only affect V for a round or so. And then later on Laurin did the same thing again only she didn't even bother attacking V at all that time but instead went after V's harmless familar. That's not Laurin firing the machine gun at V. That's Laurin setting aside the machine gun in favor of a blow gun.

Laurin knows V has disintegrate, making counterspell a viable tactic. She does disintegrate the resilient sphere.

Also, this is probably the first time I've seen someone argue for blasting over save-or-suck as ideal for caster battles.

Yes, but as I pointed out, V had at least three opportunties to fire off that disintegrate against Laurin before she ended up using it on Miron. As for the long rang evocations, V only fired off one. But we know the chase went on for at least three other rounds because we saw at least three other wormholes open up between the lightning bolt and Team Tarquin actually catching the Order, so why wasn't V firing off further evocations during those rounds? Team Tarquin would still have been in range that whole time.

The actual answer is most likely about keeping the art clean.

[Jay R]

Does Wormhole not count as a big gun? Laurin seems like the type who's outfitted herself more with teleportation and battlefield control spells than outright damage spells, ...

Yup. Just as if she'd stopped adventuring and started supporting armies years ago.

I'm not saying that the information Sabine gave V was wrong, I'm saying it doesn't make much sense for V to have relied upon that information.

V saw Sabine's reaction to Elan's murder, knew Sabine knew more about Laurin than V did, and then saw that it was true - the long sequence of wormholes was exactly what V was told to expect. Using the only intel she had, after testing it for validity, makes perfect sense.

More importantly, you can't argue that after the fact. V used the information, and it helped win the fight.

[Kish]

I'm not saying that the information Sabine gave V was wrong, I'm saying it doesn't make much sense for V to have relied upon that information. Remember V has not been privy to all the information we as readers know about Sabine. V doesn't know that Sabine actually loved Nale.

Why do (some) readers believe that? Because they saw Sabine smash the TV when Tarquin killed Nale and said no one but Elan didn't want Nale dead, presumably.

Remind me, where was Vaarsuvius at that time?

V doesn't even know that she helped Sabine in Azure City.

True, but that didn't stop Sabine from trying to kill Vaarsuvius, so I think you greatly overestimate how much it matters. Practically speaking, Vaarsuvius knows as much about Sabine's current mental state and motivations as the readers do.

Furthermore, even within these last few comics, Sabine's information has proven to be either inaccurate or at least incomplete. Remember V believed that Team Tarquin had no long range spells.

I do not believe anyone had suggested that Sabine's whispering to Vaarsuvius conveyed an amount of information equivalent to showing Vaarsuvius the character sheets and written biographies of every member of the Laurinear Guild, and it seems logically unsound to blur "Sabine didn't mention Miron can cast Horrid Wilting" into "Sabine's information was inaccurate, or at least incomplete in some more meaningful sense of the term incomplete than she didn't show Vaarsuvius Miron's character sheet."

If I spend my life savings on lottery tickets and just happen to win the lottery, that doesn't mean that was an intelligent investment plan.

As I said: It appears that you are at this point arguing that the next-to-last panel of the current strip is meaningless detritus Rich drew because he loves drawing extraneous panels with his weakened thumb (twice) and that Vaarsuvius won by sheer luck. Which, well, have fun with that.

[Jay R]

Nobody ever batted an eyelid on the tentacles before it was suggested to be used on Laurin, who happens to be a woman. Nobody says that it is to be avoided to burn people to death with fireball or that it was regrettable familicide was used, a mass murdering spell with a genocidal aftertaste...

Yes, you're right. Nobody batted an eye at an evil soul in Hades having an evil spell to use, and people are upset at one of the heroes having one.

That's because we expect evil people to be evil.

Spoiler

Show

Because really, if T fights and loses, he is a forgotten emperor on a turnstile throne. With how often regime change happens in the kingdoms, he'd simply have died alone in the desert under mysterious circumstances, ...

: Not another one! When will they find a cure?!?

[Ashram]

Speaking of when someone mentioned "Why don't Laurin/V Disintegrate each others' faces off", doesn't V have transmutation as a banned school?

[Liliet]

Yes, you're right. Nobody batted an eye at an evil soul in Hades having an evil spell to use, and people are upset at one of the heroes having one.

That's because we expect evil people to be evil.



: Not another one! When will they find a cure?!?

Sorry, is fireball/wall of flame/lightning bolt a Good spell? Does it come with anesthesia? Did I miss something in the rules?

[ellindsey]

Speaking of when someone mentioned "Why don't Laurin/V Disintegrate each others' faces off", doesn't V have transmutation as a banned school?

No, V's banned schools are Conjuration and Necromancy. Furthermore, V has used Disintergrate many, many times.

[Seward]

So basically Laurin forewent using a power we know she had (disintegrate) that targetted V's weakest save, and would have likely one shoted V on a successful hit

1. Lauren never used a disintegrate on anything that could dodge.
2. Elves are known to have good dexterity and wizards have some spells that can make rays ineffective.
3. Lauren failed a reflex save against a lowish level spell (resilient sphere)

Conclusion? Lauren's dex probably sucks, and she's a half-bab character. Her ranged attack mod is in the toilet. (she probably dumped strength too. She teleports, most uses of dex and strength are irrelevant to her) She's not going to risk a ray attack on anything that has a touch AC of much above 10 when she has options that don't require a targeting roll.

Also hell, 4...we've never seen her take the first action in a fight, so her init mod kinda sucks

Most importantly....

5. V failed the last will save attack. Lauren was perfectly justified in thinking going to the same well again would work, and might indeed be a higher percentage move than risking a range touch attack. (See Varsuvius vs a DRAGON for cripesakes to see how bad that can go. Dragon touch AC's being sucky, although granted V was likely exhausted and taking a -3ish to hit at the time)

(yes, I've played a lot of characters with rays and middling to low attack rolls, including a sorceress with disintegrate. She used it on walls and barriers...people were too likely to waster her action either with a missed attack or a fort save)

As for V....hir use of high level spells is well documented in other threads. Even if she had any L6 slots left, we've already seen her attempt (and BTW miss with, making my point) a disintegrate against another wizard.

[Snails]

Disintegrate vs. Disintegrate would be boring.

If so compelling, then these spellcasters should also have Displacement and Mirror Image, etc. here. While that makes logical sense, it would be incredibly boring.

The Giant has to decide whether to err on the side of "What would ruthless vicious efficient murderhobos decide to do here?" or "What tactical choices could imply the state of mind of this character that would be useful towards character development?" I, for one, am more than happy if he leans towards the second choice.

[Amphiox]

He was clearly presented as male, capable of committed relationships, and having a name. That's more than can be said of some humanoids in the strip.

He was presented as a monster of the day, to whom it was fair game to do anything for laughs. Him having a name, or being capable of a committed relationship, was not relevant AT THAT TIME, not to the strip, nor the author, nor this forum as a community.

Things have changed. It was not a problem then (an empirical observation of fact, not a judgement). IT IS NOW. To the Giant, and to us (the forum as a social entity, rather than individuals some of whom were certainly disturbed by it at the time, and some who would have been disturbed but had not joined the forum at that time.

See the question I address my comment to is the accusation of hypocrisy and double standard here. It is not hypocrisy to EVOLVE. GROWTH does not equate to double standard. Just because we as a community have GROWN to the point that we no longer find that joke acceptable, it does not make us hypocritical for it because we on e did not have a problem with it. There is no double standard regarding Laurin's female gender, because this forum would have had the exact same reaction if V had cast that spell NOW against Tarquin or Miron. And indeed, if we had seen that happen NOW to Trigak, we would not be ok with it NOW, even if we had been then.

[orrion]

I'm not saying that the information Sabine gave V was wrong, I'm saying it doesn't make much sense for V to have relied upon that information. Remember V has not been privy to all the information we as readers know about Sabine. V doesn't know that Sabine actually loved Nale. V doesn't even know that she helped Sabine in Azure City. All she knows is that Sabine is a literal incarnation of evil, who has repeatedly tried to murder her and her friends, and who works for an organization that has already tricked V once before.

Are you just skipping the part where V saw Sabine go berserk when Nale died?

Furthermore, it's known at this point that the fiends want the battle for the gates to continue. Your interpretation - that Sabine is giving V false information in an attempt to kill the party because she works for them - doesn't make much sense because they want V alive.

Furthermore, even within these last few comics, Sabine's information has proven to be either inaccurate or at least incomplete. Remember V believed that Team Tarquin had no long range spells. (Something Miron proved to be incorrect when he tried to break out the long range Horrid Wilting.) Thus Sabine gave at best incomplete information to V and as such it is pretty reckless for V to base her strategy on the word of a succubus with no magical training whose information had already proven itself to be unreliable. That it ultimately prevailed doesn't mean it was a good strategy. If I spend my life savings on lottery tickets and just happen to win the lottery, that doesn't mean that was an intelligent investment plan.

No, the part about long range spells was tactically sound - at that point they were still only after Roy and weren't planning on killing anyone else. Miron's Horrid Wilting is "Time to Get Serious" mode.

And actually, Sabine's information was being proven right by Laurin's unwillingness to change tactics. She says Laurin would rather use the biggest tool to get the job done instead of the most appropriate tool. Spamming Wormhole is certainly indicative of that.

[Spoomeister]

Also, notice V's spell selection includes lots of things to lock down people you'd really rather not kill? Gives you an idea of the anticipated tactics for when the Order reached the pyramid and the Draketooth clan.

+1 on kudos for perceptive comment. That definitely factors into spell choice for the caster duel.

[bguy]

-V can see Sabine's reaction to Nale's death.

A regular Succubui gets +19 on its bluff checks, and Sabine has class levels, so her bluff score is probably even higher. Thus V should be aware that Sabine could probably put on a convincing display of grief if she wanted to without it being real. This is what succubi do for a living after all. Get people to trust them who should know better. And V's already been burned once before (with two times to go) by trusting fiends.

-V's statement about long-range spells was tactically sound if factually not quite accurate; Miron wasn't planning on using Horrid Wilting to stop them, or he would have used it already.

But the fact remains that Sabine still gave V inaccurate information about Team Tarquin's capabilities. And if she was wrong about Miron, why would V assume she was right about Laurin?

-Sabine uses magic regularly. She may not have training; that doesn't mean she's ignorant.

This being the same Sabine whose best idea for countering V's magical capabilities was Pompey?

Laurin knows V has disintegrate, making counterspell a viable tactic.

That's still a good result for Laurin though. A V that uses her disintegrates up counter-spelling Laurin is a V that isn't disintegrating Laurin. And even with Laurin low on PPs, V is still almost certain to run out of disintegrates before Laurin does.

Also, this is probably the first time I've seen someone argue for blasting over save-or-suck as ideal for caster battles.

Why would you want to target a caster's strongest save when you can target their weakest? (Save or suck is also a poor option for Laurin at this time because she is horribly outnumbered and needs to put V down permanently before Roy, Durkon, and Julio reenter the fight. Stunning V doesn't do Laurin any good, if 3 rounds later she's back in the fight while Laurin is trying to hold off the rest of the Order.)

More importantly, you can't argue that after the fact. V used the information, and it helped win the fight.

You can still win with a bad strategy due to luck, or outside assistance, or your opponent fighting even worse than you do. Thus winning does not by itself prove a strategy was sound. And again V's strategy only succeeded here after first utterly failing (strip 930) and then due to Laurin not bothering to use her main offensive powers. (Heck Laurin's last offensive action in the fight was to target a bird rather than V.) V didn't win through her own cleverness, she only won due to outside intervention at just the right moment and due to her opponent making poor tactical decisions.

5. V failed the last will save attack. Lauren was perfectly justified in thinking going to the same well again would work, and might indeed be a higher percentage move than risking a range touch attack. (See Varsuvius vs a DRAGON for cripesakes to see how bad that can go. Dragon touch AC's being sucky, although granted V was likely exhausted and taking a -3ish to hit at the time).

But what does it accomplish. Stunning V for a round or two doesn't really help Laurin when she is on a ship full of enemies. Also, the stun attack that affected V seems to have been a higher level power than the one she successfully used on Haley, and thus would have a higher save DC than the one she used here. And even if Laurin thought that the stun attack was the better move that still doesn't explain why she would waste a stun attack on a bird rather than trying to get V again?

As for V....hir use of high level spells is well documented in other threads. Even if she had any L6 slots left, we've already seen her attempt (and BTW miss with, making my point) a disintegrate against another wizard.)

Which doesn't mean she would necessarily miss against Laurin. (Especially if your suggestion that Laurin has a poor DEX modifier is true.) Though I agree that V really does need to invest in some Quickened True Strikes to help with her terrible aim on Disintegrates.

Furthermore, it's known at this point that the fiends want the battle for the gates to continue. Your interpretation - that Sabine is giving V false information in an attempt to kill the party because she works for them - doesn't make much sense because they want V alive.

I'm not saying that Sabine was lying to V. We as readers know that she did want V to win the fight. But V doesn't have the information we have, and thus she should have been suspicious of Sabine's motives. V doesn't know that the IFCC wants the struggle for the Gates to continue. She doesn't know what the IFCC wants. So why would she assume that a CE demon working for the IFCC would be trustworthy? For all she knows Sabine has been in league with Tarquin this whole time.

No, the part about long range spells was tactically sound - at that point they were still only after Roy and weren't planning on killing anyone else. Miron's Horrid Wilting is "Time to Get Serious" mode.

And again how would V know that's what Tarquin's plan was? In evaluating V's strategy you have to consider what she knew, not what we as readers know. V had no way of knowing that Team Tarquin was only interested in killing Roy.

And actually, Sabine's information was being proven right by Laurin's unwillingness to change tactics. She says Laurin would rather use the biggest tool to get the job done instead of the most appropriate tool. Spamming Wormhole is certainly indicative of that.

Exactly what other way could Laurin have brought her entire team (including the triceratops) to the Order? Spamming wormholes was the most appropriate tool at that point for what Laurin wanted to do, so it really doesn't prove that Laurin automatically defaults to her most powerful spells. (Notably Laurin's attacks on Haley and Roy used much lower level powers which seems to disprove Sabine's theory. Laurin only truly broke out the big gun once Miron was gone, and she was directly threatened with getting dog-piled.)

[Snails]

I like V's tactics. Very nice.

However, a part of me is sad. Sad because those spell choices V used are probably not going to appear again during this encounter.

I was hoping to watch Tarquin waft helplessly away within a Resilient Sphere. Can you imagine a more perfectly anticlimatic end to this combat?

[The Grim Author]

But what does it accomplish. Stunning V for a round or two doesn't really help Laurin when she is on a ship full of enemies. Also, the stun attack that affected V seems to have been a higher level power than the one she successfully used on Haley, and thus would have a higher save DC than the one she used here.

Stunning V for a round or two allows Laurin to completely waste V while V's stunned, at which point V's put on the defensive in the fight. And unlike Laurin, V can't cast Dispel Magic spontaneously.

And as for the issue of "ship full of enemies"... "You know the captain's orders: No interfering with third-act duels!"

[Quartz]

Also, notice V's spell selection includes lots of things to lock down people you'd really rather not kill? Gives you an idea of the anticipated tactics for when the Order reached the pyramid and the Draketooth clan.

I too totally missed this. Kudos to you and the Giant.

[wyrmhole]

Are you just skipping the part where V saw Sabine go berserk when Nale died?

Yeah, V saw all that, so why should she doubt that Sabine wanted V to win the fight? "Fiends are untrustworthy" is all well and good but V would know fiends don't necessarily lie. From V's point of view, what would Sabine's motivation be to play this ruse of anger over Nale then sneaking false info to V?

Furthermore, it's known at this point that the fiends want the battle for the gates to continue.

To be fair, V doesn't know that, but the relevance is low anyway.

No, the part about long range spells was tactically sound - at that point they were still only after Roy and weren't planning on killing anyone else. Miron's Horrid Wilting is "Time to Get Serious" mode.

V's exact words were: "If they had any spells capable of stopping us outright from long range, they would have already employed them." While that may have been something Sabine said, it needn't have been, because it was an empirically true observation at the time V said it.

And actually, Sabine's information was being proven right by Laurin's unwillingness to change tactics. She says Laurin would rather use the biggest tool to get the job done instead of the most appropriate tool. Spamming Wormhole is certainly indicative of that.

Really the bit about "big guns" wasn't as important to the outcome as being able to have an estimate of Laurin's available power reserves. V wouldn't know exactly how much Laurin had, or what she had used so far, but she could safely assume Laurin had used at least one wormhole to get the army there, and then V was privy to everything else Laurin did -- from there it's a matter of "observations and calculations" to know she almost certainly could not counter the remainder of V's spells.

Laurin's tactics make sense too, given her assumption that V was just as drained as the rest of the team. Which turned out to be wrong. Oops!

[kit_reyne]

I've reached a point while reading this comic that I just want it to be made in to a movie. Animated, live action, it doesn't matter. It's a story that's epic enough to blow anything out of the water and set box office records.

[wyrmhole]

You can still win with a bad strategy due to luck, or outside assistance, or your opponent fighting even worse than you do. Thus winning does not by itself prove a strategy was sound. And again V's strategy only succeeded here after first utterly failing (strip 930) and then due to Laurin not bothering to use her main offensive powers. (Heck Laurin's last offensive action in the fight was to target a bird rather than V.) V didn't win through her own cleverness, she only won due to outside intervention at just the right moment and due to her opponent making poor tactical decisions.

Yeah, and you can still lose with a good strategy especially when the enemy is more powerful and fresh. If we forgive V for not being able to prevent Laurin from using her stun and missing a save, and for not anticipating being whip-choked by Tarquin, then I'm not sure what V's big strategic failure was.

As far as Laurin's actions, I suppose maybe it would have been better to let the raven continue trying to peck her eyes out. But as her next lines indicate, her assumption at that point was that V was even more drained than she was. Given that, her strategy of "nullify whatever the wizard does -- including the Bird in the Face attack" was sound. Just based on a bad assumption.

[ti'esar]

I know this is a bit late, but I just wanted to respond to this:

Yes, I regret it, and no, it will never, ever show up again.

And no, not because it would be a Conjuration spell and I subsequently determined that V had barred Conjuration magic. Although sure, that too.

with a "good riddance".