Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

[Darth Ultron]

Signs and Portents(Additions)

Just thought of :

*Guess Dlaenn had her shadow detector turned up to 11. As Morden is around after this, I guess she must have turned it off.

*Morden's Idenit-card-So he comes on to B5, swipes his card and Security Guy is like ''oh, has not been updated in a while...have a nice day."

What?

Spoiler: So....

Show

would not the computer say ''Morden:Missing-presumed Dead. Like ''was on the Icarus and went to Za'ha'Doom''. Hold and call Earth Central! And send up all sorts of Red Flags?

Though there is a bit of a weird time line. Some shows say ''all'' the shadows were asleep and woken up by the Icarus. Other stories have the Shadows doing things for years before the Icarus landed.

And Morden never talks to Sinclar...because the shadows are all ready allied with the humans? With no ''human ambassador'' I guess the shadows...went to the vice president? So maybe they ''turned off'' the Red Flags?

[Olinser]

Signs and Portents(Additions)

Just thought of :

*Guess Dlaenn had her shadow detector turned up to 11. As Morden is around after this, I guess she must have turned it off.

*Morden's Idenit-card-So he comes on to B5, swipes his card and Security Guy is like ''oh, has not been updated in a while...have a nice day."

What?

Spoiler: So....

Show

would not the computer say ''Morden:Missing-presumed Dead. Like ''was on the Icarus and went to Za'ha'Doom''. Hold and call Earth Central! And send up all sorts of Red Flags?

Though there is a bit of a weird time line. Some shows say ''all'' the shadows were asleep and woken up by the Icarus. Other stories have the Shadows doing things for years before the Icarus landed.

And Morden never talks to Sinclar...because the shadows are all ready allied with the humans? With no ''human ambassador'' I guess the shadows...went to the vice president? So maybe they ''turned off'' the Red Flags?

Given his disinterest it seems like it was more like 'last entry Earth 15 years ago' or something like that. So he hasn't travelled to a human customs station in a long time - that's interesting, but not particularly noteworthy as presumably it was still valid.

[Cikomyr]

Given his disinterest it seems like it was more like 'last entry Earth 15 years ago' or something like that. So he hasn't travelled to a human customs station in a long time - that's interesting, but not particularly noteworthy as presumably it was still valid.

Closer to 1-2 years. The Icarus was destroyed in 2257, this is 2258

[Thufir]

*Guess Delenn had her shadow detector turned up to 11. As Morden is around after this, I guess she must have turned it off.

We see in the next season that she's fully aware of who Morden works for but isn't making a big thing of it because she and Kosh don't want to tip their hand. Also she never comes face-to-face with Morden again after this episode.

[Olinser]

Closer to 1-2 years. The Icarus was destroyed in 2257, this is 2258

So even less reason to be particularly concerned about it then.

[Cikomyr]

So even less reason to be particularly concerned about it then.

Personally, I just dont pay attention to Darth Ultron's nitpicking at this point. No offense DU, but you seem eager to just find stuff to criticize.

You know what would be a good point of criticism?

Anna Sheridan died while going to explore an unknown world. Sheridan should know the location/coordinates of that world (Za'ha'dum), and yet doesn't bat an eye when G'kar tells him about a world where Evil is gathering its forces; even when the Organ-eater tried to get there.

[HandofShadows]

Anna Sheridan died while going to explore an unknown world. Sheridan should know the location/coordinates of that world (Za'ha'dum), and yet doesn't bat an eye when G'kar tells him about a world where Evil is gathering its forces; even when the Organ-eater tried to get there.

She died on an mission for Interstellar Expeditions. They just don't go bandying about the coordinates of sites they are searching as it allows other people a chance to steal from it. So there is every reason for him not to know the location of Za'ha'dum.

[Cikomyr]

She died on an mission for Interstellar Expeditions. They just don't go bandying about the coordinates of sites they are searching as it allows other people a chance to steal from it. So there is every reason for him not to know the location of Za'ha'dum.

I kind of agree with your logic, but they lost a ship and had many people dying in the incident. I think therr would have been an Inquiry and Sheridan most likely had the authority to get that information.

When something blows up, you dont just shake your head and say "thats life"

[factotum]

I kind of agree with your logic, but they lost a ship and had many people dying in the incident. I think therr would have been an Inquiry and Sheridan most likely had the authority to get that information.

Sheridan's only a captain--might not even have been that when Anna disappeared, I'm not sure if it's ever made clear. It's entirely possible that the location of Z'Ha'Dum would be above his security level. After all, he doesn't find out about the Shadow ship on Mars from his own superiors, does he?

[Cikomyr]

Sheridan's only a captain--might not even have been that when Anna disappeared, I'm not sure if it's ever made clear. It's entirely possible that the location of Z'Ha'Dum would be above his security level. After all, he doesn't find out about the Shadow ship on Mars from his own superiors, does he?

"Only a captain", that is a pretty senior naval rank. And Sheridan already has a habit of collecting secrets/conspiracies.

[factotum]

But that doesn't change that he did not know about the Shadow ship on Mars, so there are clearly secrets he is not privy to.

[Darth Ultron]

Personally, I just dont pay attention to Darth Ultron's nitpicking at this point. No offense DU, but you seem eager to just find stuff to criticize.

No problem. I'm a proud member of the Nitpicking Guild(member 2333). I think it is fun. If you don't, well don't read my posts.

Anna Sheridan died while going to explore an unknown world. Sheridan should know the location/coordinates of that world (Za'ha'dum), and yet doesn't bat an eye when G'kar tells him about a world where Evil is gathering its forces; even when the Organ-eater tried to get there.

This whole bit is written a bit poorly. Sheridan knew all about the mission...not only did Anna send him the full mission details, it was all over ISN. If ISN knew where they were going, it was not much of a secret.

[Pippa the Pixie]

I kind of agree with your logic, but they lost a ship and had many people dying in the incident. I think therr would have been an Inquiry and Sheridan most likely had the authority to get that information.

When something blows up, you dont just shake your head and say "thats life"

More so...wonder why Sheridan did not fly off and look for her? He sure seems like the type. It's really odd to think he was just like ''yup things happen, oh well''.

[factotum]

More so...wonder why Sheridan did not fly off and look for her? He sure seems like the type.

Maybe he was ordered not to? While Sheridan is very willing to disobey orders he considers to be illegal, I doubt a straight "Don't go after your wife, it's dangerous there and we need you here" would fall into that category.

[Darth Ultron]

Grail

A guy looks for the Holy Grail.

*The Judge-Well, we get to see B5 justice. And it's just a judge (or maybe a Ombudsman) just makes rulings with no trial or jury or anything else. Unless we just don't see it..somehow. Wonder if he just takes care of the small stuff and big ones go back the Earth.

*The Vree-Are the classic Gray Aliens from UFO lore. And the ''abducted grandfather'' is funny. So you can ignore this a just a funny bit....but....well, wonder if the Vree have been to Earth and have been abducting people for years? That makes them an advanced race technology wise for centuries. Wonder why they are not bigger players in the galaxy?

Spoiler: Wonder

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If they work for the Vorlons?

*A True Seeker-So the Minbari sure make a big deal about True Seekers. And Delenn makes that little tease to Sinclar.....

Spoiler: Well

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It's almost like Delenn knows that Sinclar is Valen, but she does not know this..yet, as she finds out like two seasons later. Though I'm sure this is in the season 1 B5 writers handbook, as Kosh knew and said so back in the Gathering. But during season one Deleen should just think Sinclar has Valens reincarnated soul, right? Or did Kosh tell her the truth?

But the fun part is the time loop. Ok...so Sinclar remembers being funny about the ''guy on the silly grail quest'' and remembers how serious the Minbari were about it. Then he goes back a 1000 years and becomes the One. So...did he add the ''Seekers are beyond awesome'' bit to Minbari culture ? Like he wanted to make sure Delenn and Lenear were all ''wow, crazy'' like we see them? So to ''make sure it happened'', on the Ten Minbari commandments or such was like one of them ''seekers are great''? But then Sinclari only has that idea as the Minbari all ready think that...or do they?

Time loop!

Things that don't make Sense

*Holy Grail-Well, guess the writer did not know Indy found it(though he did not tell the world about it, right?) It's odd Aldous says ''he looked all over Earth'', really the whole planet....and now thinks the grail might be ''in space''?

*Cycles- So ''cycles'' come out of nowhere in this episode. Wonder if a cycle is like how long it takes the cylinder of B5 to spin around once? The cylinder spins like a little faster then once a minute, so was Deuce giving him 5 hours? And it's not like he said ''at cycle 1900'' or something, just ''300 cycles'' .
*Big Stick- Aldous Gajic walks around the station with a big staff. This would very much count as a 'weapon' would it not? He does even hit people with it...

*Mind wipe-I guess poor Doc Franklin might have never heard of a memory wipe machine...but he acts like it's impossible to be ''a machine''. Also I guess the writer (wink, wink) did not know about the standard Earth punishment of ''Loss of Personality''.

*Swift Justice-Wow poor Tomas gets right in front of the judge like an hour after he is arrested.

*Minbari caste-So Minbari have two castes...two? Guess the writer did not know....

*Not Hungry-So why does the na'ka'leen feeder not eat Aldous? He seems like a yummy old mind, right? Or don't they eat True Seekers?

*Death to all monsters-So the na'ka'leen feeder is only ''semi- intelligent'' based on someones notes...but that makes it ok to just slaughter it like a bug? It does talk and seems to understand words, so that seems intelligent.

*My pet Monster-So Deuce has the feeder drain minds to get rid of people....because, er, he can't just kill them? For some reason?

*Goofy Londo-Just about all of Londo's screen time has a goofy ''dum, dum, dum'' soundtrack playing like from some cartoon track. It's really, really odd.

*Kosh-Well, they never get to ask him about the grail, right? Humm..wonder if they might know something or even have it?

*Boom-Everyone just laughs that B5 will go ''boom'' someday. Even Sinclar, when he has been shown the future telepathic vision.

Spoiler: And.....

Show

It IS true, as that Is how B5 ends it's existence...with a ''Boom".

Final thoughts-D, nothing really happens.

[Douglas]

The vision of Babylon 5's destruction is quite a red herring, with it really being a controlled demolition when the station is no longer needed.

I'm sure it was the subject of much theorizing and speculation while the series was ongoing, much to the potential amusement of the writer(s) who knew the truth of it.

[tomandtish]

Grail



*A True Seeker-So the Minbari sure make a big deal about True Seekers. And Delenn makes that little tease to Sinclar.....

Spoiler: Well

Show

It's almost like Delenn knows that Sinclar is Valen, but she does not know this..yet, as she finds out like two seasons later. Though I'm sure this is in the season 1 B5 writers handbook, as Kosh knew and said so back in the Gathering. But during season one Deleen should just think Sinclar has Valens reincarnated soul, right? Or did Kosh tell her the truth?

But the fun part is the time loop. Ok...so Sinclar remembers being funny about the ''guy on the silly grail quest'' and remembers how serious the Minbari were about it. Then he goes back a 1000 years and becomes the One. So...did he add the ''Seekers are beyond awesome'' bit to Minbari culture ? Like he wanted to make sure Delenn and Lenear were all ''wow, crazy'' like we see them? So to ''make sure it happened'', on the Ten Minbari commandments or such was like one of them ''seekers are great''? But then Sinclari only has that idea as the Minbari all ready think that...or do they?

Time loop!

Well, if you've watch the prequel "In the Beginning"...

Spoiler: Major spoilers if you haven't watched In the Beginning or a lot further in the series

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Sinclair has a Minbari soul, and more specifically Valen's soul. That's the whole reason why the Minbari stopped the war with Earth just before they were about to exterminate them, because they learned that Minbari souls were being reborn in humans. It is probably what also allowed Sinclair to do his 1000 year time travel thing successfully. He's ALREADY Valen. (Effect preceding cause).

So it's not that she knows he is going to do the time travel thing. She simply believes he is Valen reborn in human form. That's more than enough for her, and every Minbari who knows about it.

[Cikomyr]

Well, if you've watch the prequel "In the Beginning"...

Spoiler: Major spoilers if you haven't watched In the Beginning or a lot further in the series

Show

Sinclair has a Minbari soul, and more specifically Valen's soul. That's the whole reason why the Minbari stopped the war with Earth just before they were about to exterminate them, because they learned that Minbari souls were being reborn in humans. It is probably what also allowed Sinclair to do his 1000 year time travel thing successfully. He's ALREADY Valen. (Effect preceding cause).

So it's not that she knows he is going to do the time travel thing. She simply believes he is Valen reborn in human form. That's more than enough for her, and every Minbari who knows about it.

I think he makes the point that at this point in the show, Sinclair wasnt scheduled to leave and thus go back in time to be the real Valen.

[tomandtish]

I think he makes the point that at this point in the show, Sinclair wasnt scheduled to leave and thus go back in time to be the real Valen.

I'd spoil that personally..


And...

Spoiler

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It may not have been planned to happen that specific way, but Sinclair was always supposed to be Valen reborn. JMS was very happy that he was able to get Michael O'Hare back for the two-parter (namely that he was doing well enough), since he'd alwys intended to reveal that Sinclair was Valen.

[Thufir]

The vision of Babylon 5's destruction is quite a red herring, with it really being a controlled demolition when the station is no longer needed.

I'm sure it was the subject of much theorizing and speculation while the series was ongoing, much to the potential amusement of the writer(s) who knew the truth of it.

Actually I'm pretty sure that was one of the many things which was changed along the way. Originally B5 was going to be destroyed during the Shadow War so they'd have to somehow get a replacement *cough*Babylon Squared*cough* in order to carry on and eventually win. But the overarching plot evolved in a variety of different ways as the series continued, to accommodate Michael O'Hare's departure apart from anything else, and so that prophetic vision got repurposed.

[factotum]

Yeah, I think there were some obvious retcons between Babylon Squared and the revisit due to plot changes, personally. Sinclair appearing old and grey being explained away by "Oh, he passed through an accelerated time field"? Nah, pretty sure it was originally intended that B4 was being taken years into the future, but JMS decided to change that for some reason.

[Darth Ultron]

I think he makes the point that at this point in the show, Sinclair wasnt scheduled to leave and thus go back in time to be the real Valen.

I'm not sure, but I think Sinclair was always going to be Valen. I don't think that ever changed. I'm not sure ''when'' it would have happened if Michael did not leave after the first season. Was the plan to keep him in command for the full five years and then do a ''goodbye episode'' (kind of like they did with Sheridan) or was the plan always to have him go in season 3(but maybe for the end season?)

[Cikomyr]

I'm not sure, but I think Sinclair was always going to be Valen. I don't think that ever changed. I'm not sure ''when'' it would have happened if Michael did not leave after the first season. Was the plan to keep him in command for the full five years and then do a ''goodbye episode'' (kind of like they did with Sheridan) or was the plan always to have him go in season 3(but maybe for the end season?)

I think Sinclair was merely meant to be Valen Reborn, or perhaps a descendant of Valen (if you want to avoid establishing if souls are a real thing in B5, which they thankfully never did).

[Darth Ultron]

Eyes

An internal investigation is conducted into Sinclair's command decisions.

In incidental conversation, Garibaldi paints a pretty bad picture of the situation in Earth Alliance: the government falling apart, PsiCorps' influence growing, anti-alien groups proliferating, the president's policies being attacked on all sides, Earth colonies demanding independence. This seems like a pretty sudden escalation in the deterioration of Earth society compared to other things we've heard recently. I suppose even with ISN, news doesn't always travel well to the station. Why is everything falling apart?

Anachronisms-The Motorcycle-wow, a vintage '92 one. Sure they just went to the dealer down the street, lol. Wonder how hard it would be to find one in 2017? Let alone 2258. And Abbot and Castelo, in 2258? Doubt many in '94 knew who they were..and in 2017 even?

And Lennier researches motorcycles, and watches a '80's quality Filmstrip like documentary...lol. Of course the show was made years before the History channel or Discovery channel came along. One would hope that in 2258 they could at least watch Modern Marvels:The Motorcycle.


*Weird Tech- The Inter Web-So, is this some sort of galaxy wide Internet?

*Telepathy Thoughts-So a telepath can make someone feel pain in their mind? Interesting ability...

Things that don't make Sense

*Mad Ivanova-So in CNC Ivanova threatens Gray, loudly and in front of at least four or five people. Of course this just gets ignored. Though in any real setting Ivanova would be given a long talk by HR and an unpaid couple days off...at best. And then there is the whole assault and battery and destruction of the casino. Really, it is just way, way too much to just sweep under the rug. You might be able to say the casino did not press charges (though I doubt even that), but the dozen or so people she hit and hurt could sue too. And what about ''appearances'' how can people live and work in a place with crazy Ivanova might just ''go nuts'' and attack them at any time? Even in 2017 if someone so much as spreads their arms across a door way they can be charged with ''kidnapping''(by preventing someone from walking through the doorway) and go to jail for years.

*Ben Zayn Video-So he watches a video of the Babylon 5 episode ''Deathwalker''..lol. Or was it Babylon 5 Cam footage, that just happened to be at the same angle and such as the show.

*Ben Zayn Investigations- Ok, so it is a witch hunt and Ben Zayn is crazy and Ben Zayn knows nothing about aliens or inter stellar politics(or common sense). Still, out of all of Sinclair's decisions he questions he picks ''he did not protest the Vorlon's killing Deathwalker''. Talk about grasping at a straw. Other then Sinclair's ''just a commander'' silly protest would have been pointless. Even if the Earth Government (not Sinclair) filed a protest the Vorlon's would not even notice. At best the Vorlon government might say "Every rose has it's thorn. The Kirby Sliver Surfer is the only true Silver Surfer. End of Line"

*Ben Zayn's Battle-So he is a Colonel and must have been in Earthforce for years...at least as long as Sinclair....but Zayn was NOT at the Battle of the Line? Granted he only makes a big deal that Sinclair was there and does not mention where he was at the time.

*Easy riding Garibaldi-So he planned to ''build'' the motorcycle ''forever'' (like millions of other guys with similar vehicles). But, assuming he did finish it someday, did he really think it would be fun to ride around the station? Sure he can do a loop through a central corridor (like we see him do), but does ''riding in a straight line in a tunnel really fit ''the freedom of riding a motorcycle''? And once he did finish it...where did he expect to get gasoline. Even more so ''late 20th century gasoline''? There is no more fossil fuel use in all of Earth, right? And even if he did get some gas....it is a good idea to exhaust gas fumes in an enclosed space like B5? (Yea, the show cheeps out and goes with a Green Minbari ex machina..)

Final Thoughts-C It's not a bad episode, it just is not at the right time. This should have been all most right at the end..at least a couple more episodes. The witch hunt does tie up a plot thread that ''people want to get Sinclair''. The Mad Ivanova sub plot is dumb and unbelievable...she would be locked up in a rubber room forever.

[Cikomyr]

Jeffrey Comb <3

[Rodin]

*Easy riding Garibaldi-So he planned to ''build'' the motorcycle ''forever'' (like millions of other guys with similar vehicles). But, assuming he did finish it someday, did he really think it would be fun to ride around the station? Sure he can do a loop through a central corridor (like we see him do), but does ''riding in a straight line in a tunnel really fit ''the freedom of riding a motorcycle''? And once he did finish it...where did he expect to get gasoline. Even more so ''late 20th century gasoline''? There is no more fossil fuel use in all of Earth, right? And even if he did get some gas....it is a good idea to exhaust gas fumes in an enclosed space like B5? (Yea, the show cheeps out and goes with a Green Minbari ex machina..)

I don't think he ever expected to ride it. Like you said, there's nowhere to get gasoline from and using gasoline is probably a bad idea (although some of the other fumes we see about in Down Below at least hint that the better maintained areas have proper life support systems scrubbing the air of nasties). He was simply building the motorcycle for the joy of assembling the machine and was very surprised to find out that Lennier had anticipated the problem and added in a modern engine. Riding it was an unexpected bonus.

On the situation with Earth - remember that each season takes place over the course of a year. We're nearing the end of the season - episode 16 out of 22. Assuming a rough correspondence, this puts the in-universe time at around about September, and everything REALLY falls apart starting in December. It's not unreasonable that whispers of a change for the worse would be spreading, especially since we see the anti-alien movement really picking up steam way back in episode 7 (which would be March or April).

Things probably fell apart a little bit faster than they would in the real world, but that's TV for you. They can't spend the 5-10 years for things to fester into a civil war and have to do it a bit faster. 2 years or so is pretty reasonable in that context.

Edit:

Legacies was an episode that I really didn't remember. It's a pretty good one really and shows the good side of the Psi Corps, making it much more believable that good people like Talia and Gray could live their whole lives in the Corps without realizing what a cesspool it had become.

[factotum]

It's a pretty good one really and shows the good side of the Psi Corps, making it much more believable that good people like Talia and Gray could live their whole lives in the Corps without realizing what a cesspool it had become.

In a hierarchical organisation it's often easy for the high-ups to direct the organisation as a whole in a dark direction without the lower ranks realising, because said lower ranks don't have access to the big picture-they only see their small part of it. This is exacerbated in the Psi Corps because "the Corps is mother, the Corps is father"--almost everyone in the Corps has been part of it since they were a young child, so it's more than just who they work for, it's *family*. It's very easy to ignore the flaws in family members, even if you notice them!

[Darth Ultron]

Jeffrey Comb <3

I forgot to mention Harmain Gray is played by Jeffery Comb. He has a long history as an actor, but for Sci Fi fans and Star Trek fans he is known for liqudator Brunt FCA and Weyoun on Star Trek Deep Space Nine and commander Shran on Star Trek Enterprise. In his first part as Wayoun the character was killed, but everyone liked his acting so much that they made the whole spin of ''cloned Vorta'' so he could come back.

Legacies
The disappearance of a Minbari war hero's body from the station threatens to re-open hostilities between the Minbari and the Earth Alliance.

*Open Gun Ports-This might be the first time we see this.

*Weird Tech-So do the Minbari have gizmos that freeze people in time? And the religious caste has them?

*Foreshadowing the Arc-Neroon says Sinclair ''speaks like an Minbari'' LOL.

Spoiler: And...

Show

With the time loop coming it's a LOT more like Minbari speak like Sinclair.

*Foreshadowing- chrysalis.

Things that don't make Sense

*Open Gun Ports-So this seems to be a thing...like open tubes on a submarine. But a lot of the warships we see have affixed weapons on the hull. How do they ''close'' their gun ports? Is there some sort of peace covering that we never see on the show?

*Weapons not Charged-At the end of the teaser we get the ''gun ports are open and they are going to attack!'', then like a couple seconds later after Delenn wanders on to CNC, the tech guy is like ''oh, weapons are not charged'' (aka tubes are flooded, outer doors not open in submarine speak)

*Telepathic Translation-So are thoughts some type of universal language? Alisa scans Delenn and gets the very specific human word ''chrysalis''.

Final Thoughts-C This episode is interesting not really for the plot, but for all the background and subtexts. The biggest issue is the relations between humans and Minbari since the war. We didn't really know before how different the attitudes of the Minbari religious caste (which Delenn is part of) were from the Minbari warrior caste.

[Cikomyr]

I had such a crush on Alisa when I was a teenager

[factotum]

*Open Gun Ports-So this seems to be a thing...like open tubes on a submarine. But a lot of the warships we see have affixed weapons on the hull. How do they ''close'' their gun ports? Is there some sort of peace covering that we never see on the show?

Could be future Minbari military lingo for "guns ready" (note that the humans just say that the cruiser's weapons are "hot"), but you're right, does seem a bit odd. What's maybe even more odd is that we're told numerous times that the human targeting scanners can't track Minbari ships, so it's pretty amazing they managed to hit this one, much less actually kill Dukhat. Human weapons don't seem to be that effective against Minbari ships for the entire rest of the war, apart from the nukes Sheridan uses against the Black Star.