Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

[Peelee]

Even after the ice giants (that seemed difficult!), or Haley winning against Crystal (that seemed tough!!) and Roy winning (sort of) against Durkon*?

Yes, they may have gotten enough XP to gain another level. However, without any of them using a power or ability that indicates they did, we have no way of absolutely knowing if they did. My previous answer could have been worded better, I'll admit.

[Chei]

Yes, they may have gotten enough XP to gain another level. However, without any of them using a power or ability that indicates they did, we have no way of absolutely knowing if they did. My previous answer could have been worded better, I'll admit.

Is there any way to determine that Roy has hit 16 other than to see him make 4 attacks in one panel?

[Douglas]

To nitpick this a bit, there is no RAW requirement that one of V's new spells MUST be for evocation, although it is likely that V will choose to go that route since (s)he gets a bonus casting slot for evocation.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/so...Specialization

If she has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from her specialty school.

Yes, this really should be in the class description too, but WotC doesn't exactly have a reputation for well-written rule books.

[zimmerwald1915]

Even after the ice giants (that seemed difficult!), or Haley winning against Crystal (that seemed tough!!) and Roy winning (sort of) against Durkon*?

You're welcome to total up the XP. The nice thing about it is, if you can peg an encounter's minimum EL, and the PCs' starting XP or at least level, XP-counting will give you a firm floor. The problem with it is that you have to use minimum values, which means discounting intangibles like roleplaying XP, which means that often evidence that character has leveled will drop before the XP will tell you it's so. It's a sure method, providing you're not using garbage inputs, but it's a slow one.

But since you're curious I'll see if I can find or reconstruct the spreadsheet I used to get this far

[Emanick]

Even after the ice giants (that seemed difficult!), or Haley winning against Crystal (that seemed tough!!) and Roy winning (sort of) against Durkon*?

We do have the dialogue from strip #990 confirming that Haley leveled while fighting Crystal. Then again, that's already noted in the first post.

[unbeliever536]

Is there any way to determine that Roy has hit 16 other than to see him make 4 attacks in one panel?

From the Giant, we know the Order was level 7-9 when they started. Some deduction on V's spellcasting was used to peg them at level 8. They level twice from the Dungeon of Dorukan, putting them at level 10 at the beginning of book 2. Roy has three attacks by second battle with Miko (which the Giant summarized on the forum when people questioned whether it was possible), putting him at level 11.

Past that point it's unclear. There's a lot of debate surrounding his battle with Xykon; he was listed as level 16 at that point because of what people thought was him making four attacks in a single round in the four-panel sequence on page 2 of strip 442. Relatively recently, that was disputed, and that strip was no longer considered evidence. Whatever the case, we know he regained the level he lost by strip 886, because he uses his new Spellsplinter Maneuver in the dream sequence. We also know he didn't gain enough XP to level before strip 990, and we know he only gained one level in that time (since he only lost one). From that, we know that the level he lost was one that granted him a feat, but that could be any of 12, 14, 15, or 16. I think 12 was excluded by Zimmy's XP calculations, leaving 14 as the minimum. We haven't since seen Roy attack four times in one round, so we can't assume he's leveled since, though he probably has.

Personally I'm not a fan of XP calculations, since I remember the several distinct and idiosyncratic interpretations of 3e's XP rules used by my middle- and highschool groups, and don't really consider it reliable.

And this sort of thing is why I think there should be some (more) detailed summaries linked in the main post.

[Chei]

Yeah, I see the reasoning there. Man, his death really threw the thread for a loop, and I think Roy is easily the hardest character to track in terms of levels. I mean, one panel with Haley vs. Frost Giants solidified her level at 16, Belkar has demonstrated Improved Evasion and other abilities, and everyone else is a spellcaster of some kind.

Roy's last two fights were versus Frost Giants and Greg. So the Spellsplinter aside, did any of Roy's other shenanigans even suggest he'd gained more levels? Like the Weapon of Legacy manifesting?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Yeah, I see the reasoning there. Man, his death really threw the thread for a loop, and I think Roy is easily the hardest character to track in terms of levels. I mean, one panel with Haley vs. Frost Giants solidified her level at 16, Belkar has demonstrated Improved Evasion and other abilities, and everyone else is a spellcaster of some kind.

Roy's last two fights were versus Frost Giants and Greg. So the Spellsplinter aside, did any of Roy's other shenanigans even suggest he'd gained more levels? Like the Weapon of Legacy manifesting?

Legacy Weapons do require one take feats to unlock its abilities... however those feats are granted for free (one questions why they needed to be feats in the first place?). They do have level limitations but IIRC they are pretty low and not indicative of Roy's level since he's demonstrated being at or past the highest level requirement already.

[Jasdoif]

Legacy Weapons do require one take feats to unlock its abilities... however those feats are granted for free (one questions why they needed to be feats in the first place?).

So existing character sheets could reflect legacy rituals being completed, I imagine.

[Chei]

So existing character sheets could reflect legacy rituals being completed, I imagine.

Failing that, a list of the abilities he can apply through his sword? The WoL seems unlike a normal magic item in that Roy has a greater input in the effect than simple activation.

[alwaysbebatman]

The WoL seems unlike a normal magic item in that Roy has a greater input in the effect than simple activation.

Not only that. A normal magic item works the same way for anybody.

(Which, come to think of it, seems unwise. Like bearer bonds, why invest in something that seems like it's made to be stolen?)

[Peelee]

Yeah, I just figured the free feats thimg was intended for, "I can do all this with my WoL, but nobody else can."

[Douglas]

Yeah, I just figured the free feats thimg was intended for, "I can do all this with my WoL, but nobody else can."

Yes, but they didn't need to be feats to do that. They could have just cut out the middleman and made the rituals themselves the prerequisites for the abilities.

The only semi-good reason I can think of for involving feats in that batch of rules is to point out an existing spot on your character sheet to record them.

[Peelee]

Yes, but they didn't need to be feats to do that. They could have just cut out the middleman and made the rituals themselves the prerequisites for the abilities.

The only semi-good reason I can think of for involving feats in that batch of rules is to point out an existing spot on your character sheet to record them.

Yep. "Why I think they did it that way" and "how efficient I think that is" are two very different questions.

[Douglas]

From 1091, Vaarsuvius has exactly 2 non-specialized level 8 spell slots. That means either level 15 with 26+ intelligence, or level 16 with 25 or less intelligence. Which apparently fits exactly with what we've already got, as the first post says Wizard 16 with 24 int.

[Chronos]

As of 1091, V officially has exactly two non-specialist 8th-level slots, and no 9ths. This means that e is definitely either level 15 with an Int of 26 or greater, or 16 with an Int less than 26. We already have em as 16 with a 24 Int, so this isn't actually new information, but it's good confirmation, and it's a lot simpler than counting up all of the spells cast in a day. It also means that the information we had, which was as far back as the fight against Tarquin's group in the desert, is still current.

EDIT: Should have known I'd Jade Phoenix Mage'd.

[Hiro Quester]

From 1091, Vaarsuvius has exactly 2 non-specialized level 8 spell slots. That means either level 15 with 26+ intelligence, or level 16 with 25 or less intelligence. Which apparently fits exactly with what we've already got, as the first post says Wizard 16 with 24 int.

Could it not be that V has another 8th level spell that needs to be prepared, so only 2 mind blank spells is a matter of prudence, not slot-limitations?

[Chronos]

Hiro, e says that e can only prepare it twice, not that e did. V's language is pretty precise about things like that.

[JBiddles]

Well, she can have an 8th-level Evocation as well. She (probably) used Clenched Fist in 896, so that's a possibility, but the obvious one to prepare against vampires is Sunburst, if she has it.

[Kalmegil]

Well, she can have an 8th-level Evocation as well. She (probably) used Clenched Fist in 896, so that's a possibility, but the obvious one to prepare against vampires is Sunburst, if she has it.

I would think Sunburst would be worth more than a second Mind Blank, too. Aren't there lower level ways to prevent domination?

[Chei]

I would think Sunburst would be worth more than a second Mind Blank, too. Aren't there lower level ways to prevent domination?

Yes, Protection From Evil. It's not a spell we've ever seen V use. Owl's Wisdom and some other spells help with the saves, as well.

[Ephemera]

Also, if we want to be difficult (and when do we not?), I'm not entirely sure that "among my most difficult spells" couldn't be construed to cover a case where V has, say, 1 9th level spell and some 8ths...so I'm not really convinced that this bit of dialogue rules out V being level 17.

That said, since this is just supporting evidence, it doesn't really matter.

[Chei]

Also, if we want to be difficult (and when do we not?), I'm not entirely sure that "among my most difficult spells" couldn't be construed to cover a case where V has, say, 1 9th level spell and some 8ths...so I'm not really convinced that this bit of dialogue rules out V being level 17.

That said, since this is just supporting evidence, it doesn't really matter.

Actually, it does. If V was level 17, they could prepare Mind Blank 3 times. Twice at the level 8 slots and once at the level 9.

Edit: I want to forestall argument here by clarifying: I am not saying V would prepare Mind Blank in a level 9 slot. I am saying that the possibility that they could would make their in-comic statement false/inaccurate, and we're trying to assume that the characters know their own relative strength.

[Dragolord]

Hiro, e says that e can only prepare it twice, not that e did. V's language is pretty precise about things like that.

Yes, but he didn't correct Roy when he continued the conversation clearly believing that V had prepared a second spell, which implies that V had, in fact. Besides, protecting a teammate from domination fits in well with Vaarsuvius's new philosophy of aiding the team rather better than preparing a blasting spell, be it ever so high level.

[alwaysbebatman]

Yes, but he didn't correct Roy when he continued the conversation clearly believing that V had prepared a second spell, which implies that V had, in fact. Besides, protecting a teammate from domination fits in well with Vaarsuvius's new philosophy of aiding the team rather better than preparing a blasting spell, be it ever so high level.

No, it's not that V said that they could prepare two Mind Blanks but did not specify that they actually DID. It's that V said they did prepare two AND that was all that they could. Chronos was arguing against Hiro's proposal that maybe V was using a slot at that level for something else.

[Ephemera]

Actually, it does. If V was level 17, they could prepare Mind Blank 3 times. Twice at the level 8 slots and once at the level 9.

Edit: I want to forestall argument here by clarifying: I am not saying V would prepare Mind Blank in a level 9 slot. I am saying that the possibility that they could would make their in-comic statement false/inaccurate, and we're trying to assume that the characters know their own relative strength.

I dunno...I think I would still admit an implied "because I was saving my level 9 spell slot for something more useful" as a reasonable interpretation of V's statement in the event that V were level 17. However, it's a moot point since no one is really proposing that we need the statement as proof of anything. Given that we aren't in the business of proving that V isn't level 17 (but rather of proving that V is at least level 16), I don't see any need to belabor this point one way or another; I agree that the comic supports the notion that our current calculation is correct.

[Gitman00]

If she has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from her specialty school.

Yes, this really should be in the class description too, but WotC doesn't exactly have a reputation for well-written rule books.

Copy that. Thanks for the correction.

[Phoniex]

V was smart to get mind blank, the only thing that protected them from gaze in the last battle was the MANY clerics and mutiple targets. But now almost all the stick have protection from mind altering affectes even belkar has pro from evil cloak so no vamp mind powers.. roy has his sword or willpower one or the other. So just Haley or elan need mind blank. I smell a Elan pretending to be gazed then cure critical wounds when Mind blank happens.. plus he is the party's healer now so always protect your healer!

But Mind blank does have so many uses.. what are V's 8th level spells now Powerword Stun, Sunburst, Mind Blank, and crushing fist?

[zimmerwald1915]

But Mind blank does have so many uses.. what are V's 8th level spells now Powerword Stun, Sunburst, Mind Blank, and crushing fist?

We don't actually know that Vaarsuvius has sunburst. Her verified 8th-level spells are clenched fist, dimensional lock, mind blank, and power word stun. She almost certainly has sunburst, being an 8th-level evocation, of which she should have at least two at 16th level, that appears in the SRD, that is useful in fighting undead, and which was in fact one of the few spells that Vaarsuvius employed to significant effect in her duel against Xykon (which is to say that she has experience with it and might think to learn it herself, having borrowed it that time, not to say that she must know it now because she used it then; Vaarsuvius was 14th level at the time and did not have 8th-level spells). But no matter how good an idea it might be, we don't know.

[Sermil]

Haley Starshine
...
Cha 12-19 (with any charisma; and with maxed out Bluff, for Hide to be her best skill, her cha mod has to be less than her dex mod).
Skills: ... Bluff 18+ (maxed out), ..., Hide 18+ (best skill)....

If Hide is her best skill, and thus higher than Bluff, shouldn't that be "Hide 19+"? To be higher than 18+ Bluff, doesn't it need to be at least 19?