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2017-09-29, 12:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-09-29, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-09-29, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
I'm describing a thought process and to that your missing the point of it.
Also I agree but magic making your tired is not a cost too me.
Cost = Souls potentially summoning demons, all of that.
Magic making you tired just feels like it should be a basis for magic as a concept in general
And no my thought and idea of spark of magic didn't preclude that I never said it did I just said it was one way too think about it. And the cost for it comes from how you go about getting your magic. And more.
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2017-09-29, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
So in the back and forth between "magic needs a price" and "stop putting a price on magic"...
In the "Greco-Sumerian" setting I'm working on, there are three "ways of magic" (longer explanations in the link) :
Animism: getting a nature, elemental, or ancestor spirit to do it. Requires rites, chants, prayers, offerings, bargains, honoring taboos, etc.
"Black": drawing on spirits and forces inherently warping and corrosive to reality, using sigils, seals, and precise wording to avoid being consumed
"White": the power of the waking dream; go too far and get permanently lost in the flipside of lucid dreaming.
Does that seem like too much price, not enough price, just about right? The right sorts of prices?It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-09-29, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
I don't think having a price on magic is bad per se, it's just a bad fit for games, because most of the prices that typically get brought up are either not really prices ("oh no, my magic attracts monsters, as an adventurer I would never encounter those otherwise!") or don't really matter to PCs (you aren't going to live long enough to care about your immortal soul or your age at death) or create really bad gameplay (dying randomly "because magic" is stupid).
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2017-09-29, 02:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
Red Mage avatar by Aedilred.
Where do you fit in? (link fixed)
RedMage Prestige Class!
Best advice I've ever heard one DM give another:
"Remember that it is both a game and a story. If the two conflict, err on the side of cool, your players will thank you for it."
Second Eternal Foe of the Draconic Lord, battling him across the multiverse in whatever shapes and forms he may take.
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2017-09-29, 02:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
In more ways than many people seem to realize.
Eh, yes and no. WWII forced the US to get its head out of its proverbial hindquarters and get back to producing things, thus ending the Great Depression, and competition drives innovation (hence Cold War era military advances), but we don't need wars to achieve these things. We only need wars to force certain classes - pretty much in the rulership - to stop getting in the way.
More to the point, magic in games almost always has a price, but it's a "resource" rather than some sort of dark, forboding, unrecoverable slide towards doom.
Such dark, forboding, unrecoverable slides towards doom don't work well in games because they're either too fast, leading to unplayable characters, or too slow, leading to mages without practical price. And the character becomes less fun as he goes along because he has to be more and more judicious with his resources.
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2017-09-29, 03:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
Mean spirited /one sided deconstructions.
"Look, this trope doesn't work."
Where this is true, it would tend to be a basic fact rather than something to point and laugh at in setting.
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2017-09-29, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
I've always been a fan of the idea that SOME magic has a price (Of the Terrible Variety), and that's usually the quick-and-dirty way to power.
So, for example, a PC wizard becomes more powerful through a lifetime of study and practice. You could achieve similar levels of power much faster by paying some TERRIBLE PRICE, taking a shortcut instead of getting your magic the "Proper" way.
This means that, yes, that the PC wizard can still be an individual of rare power in the armies of righteousness, despite the evil demon cult having a half-dozen spellcasters of roughly equivalent power. The Cultists got their magic by driving themselves mad and sacrificing babies.
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2017-09-29, 03:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-09-29, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
Hrmm, idea.
There are Cosmic Forces of Good and Evil. There is ALSO a cosmic force of "Balance" that seeks to maintain parity between the two.
There is absolutely zero practical benefit to this "Balance". The world won't spin out of control if Good becomes dominant. In fact, Good becoming overwhelmingly dominant is straight up The Best Thing that could happen. But, this "Balance" thing exists regardless, for some reason, and it controls the degree to which the various cosmic forces can intervene in a given scenario.
The result is that the various cosmic forces are inversely powerful based on whether Good or Evil is dominant somewhere. In the Kingdom of Kindness, dark cultists get astounding powers from sacrificing farm animals. Meanwhile, in the Empire of Blood mad sorcerers torture themselves for power, while scrappy resistance fighters are handed prophetic visions, boundless courage, and inexplicable talent simply for standing up to the local magistrate.
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2017-09-29, 03:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
I think that a cosmic balance between Chaos and Order (as a desirable thing) can work, because it's easy to see how the extremes of both would be bad.
Good and Evil, not so much. Every attempt I've seen did it by redefining "Good" as "Bright/Shiny, but actually jerks", which is missing the point entirely. "Light vs Dark" is vague enough to work I guess, but it's cliched as hell.Last edited by icefractal; 2017-09-29 at 03:45 PM.
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2017-09-29, 04:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
Given that's the way many stories, as well as many campaigns, are set up, that sounds about right.
(Not the balance being the reason for it. Just the same 'end results'. When everything is good, evil usually has amazing relative power. When evil is everywhere, Good is relatively individually powerful.)Last edited by Tanarii; 2017-09-29 at 04:37 PM.
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2017-09-29, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
Alternative: the cosmic force of Balance is actually the only one. There is no cosmic Good or Evil, though whatever force there is leads people to believe that they do exist. Instead this one force continually grants power to the underdog, as it were, to maintain a constant state of struggle between those serving "good" and those serving "evil" in order to further its own purposes. Maybe it gains power from mortals asking it for help, regardless of the side they're on, and its own power is maximized when both sides keep asking for help to get the upper hand. Maybe it wants mortals to be stronger for whatever reason, and believes conflict is how they will become stronger. Maybe it just gets bored when things get too peaceful.
Last edited by rs2excelsior; 2017-09-29 at 05:13 PM.
I'm playing Ironsworn, an RPG that you can run solo - and I'm putting the campaign up on GitP!
Most recent update: Chapter 6: Devastation
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A worldbuilding project, still work in progress: Reign of the Corven
Most recent update: another look at magic traditions!
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2017-09-29, 05:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
It would work if it was a backward reactionary definition of "good"; like if it was "good" as defined by the spanish inquisition or as defined by ayatollah khomeini.
It would also work if it was excessive and stupid good. Like the antivillain Allegro the Panda from Powerpuff Girls, who wants everyone to be happy and to that end uses his magic to basically make everyone high all the time, causing chaos and destruction as doctors and firemen abandon what they were doing to party and stare at their hands"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2017-09-29, 07:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
@Weapons: To he fair, comparing a broadsword, Minnie ball, handgun hollow point round, handgun FMJ round, rifle round, anti material rifle round, birdshot shell, buckshot shell, and slugs could be a completely different thread. So technically, we are both right, but the reason why is that we are both being incredibly vague. Ballistics is another topic entirely.
I'm a Lawful Good Human PaladinJustice and honor are a heavy burden for the righteous. We carry this weight so that the weak may grow strong and the meek grow brave
— The Acts of Iomedae, Pathfinder
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2017-10-01, 12:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2017-10-01, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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2017-10-01, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
This is clearly the true answer. Between Huitzilopochtli and the Flying Spaghetti Monster, we have learned that we must increase bloody piracy in order to improve the world economy and stop global warming!
I'd rather not actually debate the other point. While I know I brought it up, taking it into a debate gets far too much into politics.
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2017-10-01, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
Balance between cosmic Law and Chaos is easy to make work, but balance between cosmic Good and Evil really can't be made to work in the same way.
When you're weighing Law and Chaos, you have stasis at one extreme and unstable mess at another. It's easy to see how a bit of both leads to a third option that's superior to either.
When you're weighing Good and Evil, you have Heaven at one extreme and Hell at another. Bit of both is just Earth, really, and while Earth is better than Hell, it's kinda hard to see how it's better than Heaven.
So if you want "Balance of Good and Evil", then you need a different justification for balance than "it is better". My favorite is "it is inescapable, and attempts to make it not so screw everyone over".
If that's too abstract, here is how it works: for each good deed there must be an evil deed, and vice versa. In cosmic terms, the moral sum total of existence is 0. This is the balance point.
So everyone who is trying to do "more good than evil" is acting on false premises. They will, inevitably, cause as much evil as they cause good.
Good gods cheat their way around this by directing who suffers and why. On Earth, they allow people to commit evil and get away with it... so they can then compensate to their victims in afterlife, while roasting the evil-doers in Hell.
Yeah, it may not be nice to let good people suffer in life, or torture evil people in various imaginative and horrifying ways, but on these necessary evils Heaven is built.
(A similar relationship exists between Creation and Destruction. Everything created must be destroyed so the sum total of existence remains 0, but good gods conspire so that would-be destroyers only blow up things which have already run their course or who no-one would miss anyway.)"It's the fate of all things under the sky,
to grow old and wither and die."
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2017-10-01, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
I think you have to imagine a kind of puritanical heaven wherein people do nothing all day and all night except dance around their deity singing "hosanna hosanna hosanna"...and a rock-and-roll hell that's more like a really good party that took a really bad turn and now the building's on fire, the toilet is backed up, there's a big brawl going on, folks are choking on their own vomit, and several people have contracted syphilis
Last edited by Bohandas; 2017-10-01 at 03:08 PM.
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2017-10-01, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
I don't see that as Good versus Evil, but rather, Pure/Holy versus Impure/Unholy. Which is another differently working pair and one where you don't have to play zero-sum games. (Balance between Holy and Unholy can work, but you could just forget about balance alltogether.)
"It's the fate of all things under the sky,
to grow old and wither and die."
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2017-10-01, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
That's why for the first example I specified khomeini and the inquisition. They were following real world philosophies regarding what is good and what is evil that held a lot of sway.
As for the second example, I think we can all agree that wanting people to be happy is a good motive, but there are good reasons why people are not perpetually happy; things happen that need to be reacted to. Granted not to the extent and level that some people react (like you shouldn;t panic from watching sensationalistic news programs, that's all bs and doesn't affect you), but if you're in a building that's on fire or something you can't just say "I'm comfortable with this", you have to react.
And there are also any number of real world good intentioned but impractacle or downright impossible ideas that have caused far more harm than good."If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2017-10-01, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
Doesn't the cosmic balance version of good and evil usually draw specifically on the traditional Christian morality in which sex, homosexuality, alcohol and so are evil? I recall Good is usually portrayed similar to Law but with moral overtones, which was basically how things worked before D&D divided Law and Chaos into Law, Chaos, Good and Evil.
Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2017-10-01, 03:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
Oh, you'll get a translation when it comes time to solve the thing (it'd be 5e, where it's stupid easy to cover all your language needs), but the first thing you get will be a bit of Dorikeep Dwarvish .
I have to admit, I don't mind the cosmic battle of good and evil, but the idea that they're essentially elements like fire and water is absolutely stupid. In real life, as has been mentioned, good and evil are moral principles, not tangible forces (note: I adhere to a religion where some might argue otherwise. That's the work of beings with strong good and evil allegiances, not some sort of karmic energy), and law and chaos working that way is even worse. Admittedly, it wouldn't be hard to give each alignment a "signature element" - Good could get Light and Evil Shadow (because I do adhere to that trope rather strictly), Chaos could get "entropy" (necrotic without the automatic necromancy association), and Law could have something like Force or Gravity (creating physical restrictions on behavior; "you must fall down," "you cannot pass this point," etc).
Angels defaulting to good and demons/devils to evil...would work, if there weren't explicitly evil gods who use angel servants. If evil gods only use demons/devils, then it works as a model, otherwise it just falls apart. I adhere strongly to an objective good/evil dichotomy, but trying to say, "Oh, this character is only Good" or even "more Good than Evil" is such a vast simplification of real life motivations and actions that I much prefer alignments as non-mechanical features if you must have them at all.Last edited by JBPuffin; 2017-10-01 at 04:05 PM.
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2017-10-01, 03:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
When there are a million different elves and one or two subraces of every other race.
Seriously, take any noun or adjective you can think of and try to not find an elf of it.I'm a Lawful Good Human PaladinJustice and honor are a heavy burden for the righteous. We carry this weight so that the weak may grow strong and the meek grow brave
— The Acts of Iomedae, Pathfinder
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2017-10-01, 04:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
Last edited by Bohandas; 2017-10-01 at 11:42 PM.
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2017-10-01, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
Also, if we go with sensible definitions of good and evil I could see how the side of evil could desire a balance between good and evil. If everything is ruined and destroyed than there will be nothing left to ruin and destroy
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2017-10-01, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
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2017-10-01, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fantasy Tropes/Cliches that Annoy You
I'm not sure if evil would be all about ruination and death, domination and sadistic hedonism seem like more sensible things given human behaviour.
Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.