Flash Season Four

[Seerow]

I actually enjoyed the Crossover a lot. Far more than the Crossover last year. Yes Nazi Dopplegangers are an easy out, but it felt like a more tangible threat than the Dominators ever did to me, so the whole super team up felt actually warranted.

Jax/Martin sold the show for me. I get a lot of people here don't watch Legends, but that is a relationship dynamic that has evolved over the last several years, and the conclusion to it was heartbreaking. Yes, the anvils dropped from part 1. Those anvils had been dropping since the start of the season. Yes, the way the injury actually happened was contrived and could have been totally avoided. If I wanted logic and consistency, I wouldn't be watching a tv series about idiots screwing up and subsequently trying to fix Time (and I lump both The Flash and Legends in under that). But the last scene between Martin and Jax? Or Jax keeping composure right up until he comes face to face with Martin's wife? Those are great scenes, and carried to show for me.

Oh, and yeah I guess we had some pretty neat fight scenes that used lots of fancy special effects. That was a thing.

[khadgar567]

Spoiler: spoiler of safety

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okay we dont lose the old man stein for something rather stupid he will be back before season ends since we have open door called firestorm matrix as his comic counter part resided for a while and help ronnie to return to material plane from the plane of fire. And cross over was bad and i miss captain snark leonard snart since he was literally the most sane man in nearly all shows so hope citizen cold can live up to the hipe

[Reddish Mage]

Over all I liked it but my oh my were those some shockingly incompetent soldiers. The hiring standards of the waffen ss really slipped since the war... also strangely enough the quality of their gear. The "Legends fight army of goons" fights are silly enough on the main show (why does nobody ever shoot at the non-bulletproof people?) but this went above and beyond.

I am sure I’ve seen plenty of bullets shot at Arrow/Sara/etc during the battle, and for several of those shots I couldn’t see why they weren’t hitting the target.

Oh and I don't think the writing staff knows how cause and effects work but that's the only way you can make alternate dimensions anything more then "this other place we can visit that sort of looks like our world but everything is different". And Hitler lived to be over 100 which means the reich has surprisingly progressive hiring policies since evil Olli is at the most the third fuhrer and is american (not to mention ubergirl who is a literal alien). Of well I don't watch these shows for logic I watch them for the fun superfights and the jokes.

Oliver Queen as Fuhrer is a bit of a reach for me. Ubergirl makes more sense since she at least has the blue eyes, blond hair appearance, and mentions her pod landed in the “fatherland.” Also, being a literal superhuman helps.

Oh, and yeah I guess we had some pretty neat fight scenes that used lots of fancy special effects. That was a thing.

What I saw was a lot of poorly choreographed, messy fight scenes with an over abundance of mid-battle posing.

Spoiler: Speculation - spoiler of safety

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okay we dont lose the old man stein for something rather stupid he will be back before season ends since we have open door called firestorm matrix as his comic counter part resided for a while and help ronnie to return to material plane from the plane of fire. And cross over was bad and i miss captain snark leonard snart since he was literally the most sane man in nearly all shows so hope citizen cold can live up to the hipe

Spoiler: Speculation

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Ronnie has not returned in the TV show to the best of my knowledge, I am not sure what comic your referring to although I believe Arrow-verse comics are a thing.

They can bring back Martin Stein through a Firestorm contrivance for an episode or an alternative happy ending but in both cases the question is why?

Every resurrection makes death a bit cheaper, and there’s already plenty of resurrection going on in Legends. What do we get out of a one-shot deal that brings Martin Stein back? What would he do? How would this affect Jax’s transition from being Firestorm to being a normal human?

My position is that its better to let dead legends lie. We are already getting gay-law abiding Leo Snart for a few episodes of either Legends or Flash (or both).

By the way, does anyone think that the reference to there being “53 Karas and 53 Kryptons” is more than a throwaway line? Can they already planning to make Kryptonians a part of Earth 1 in Arrowverse?

Can such plans ever be enacted in a way that doesn’t cause more of a mess than its worth?

[Pex]

What I didn't like about the crossover I can't talk about on the Forum, but that's typical of my relationship so to speak with Hollywood.

I will say evil Nazi Earth is overdone. As corny as the shows are it fits, but it's a tiresome trope. The melodrama was a bit much. I suppose if I actually watched the shows that are not Flash they would have meant more to me. As for Barry and Iris's wedding vows, pure sugar syrup sap fan service but acceptable. I appreciate Oliver almost breaking the fourth wall about it saying they can't be topped. With all the drama Barry and Iris have gone through, the audience needed to hear the extravagance to conclude the courtship.

[Friv]

Over all I liked it but my oh my were those some shockingly incompetent soldiers. The hiring standards of the waffen ss really slipped since the war... also strangely enough the quality of their gear. The "Legends fight army of goons" fights are silly enough on the main show (why does nobody ever shoot at the non-bulletproof people?) but this went above and beyond.

Based on how steeply Nazi competency went down over the course of just the Second World War, my personal headcanon is that yeah, training standards on Nazi Earth really are just that bad, and they've only maintained control as long as they have because they have a Nazi time ship and no compunctions about using it to undo their frequent failures.

Oh and I don't think the writing staff knows how cause and effects work but that's the only way you can make alternate dimensions anything more then "this other place we can visit that sort of looks like our world but everything is different". And Hitler lived to be over 100 which means the reich has surprisingly progressive hiring policies since evil Olli is at the most the third fuhrer and is american (not to mention ubergirl who is a literal alien).

I can headcanon this one away, too. Supergirl looks like the Aryan ideal; her landing in Germany gives them a way of saying, "See, Aryan perfection is literally the universal standard" and turn her into a mascot. If she fell in love with Oliver before he became fuhrer, the two of them could probably murder their way to the top of the ladder pretty effectively.

Spoiler

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Overall, it was a fun crossover that doesn't hold up to too much scrutiny, with a few great moments and a few real clunkers... and then Martin died in Part Four and the show just tore my freaking heart out and stomped all over it. I was totally unprepared for the raw emotion of that scene, and of the scene that followed it, and I cried quite a lot. The funeral was also pretty strong, but nothing compared to the death.

Also, and this is just a quibble - Heatwave's Earth-X alternate died saving a whole lot of cops from a burning building, which is an easy joke on first glance - but also, this is NAZI EARTH. So he died saving a whole lot of Nazis? Or was it in some far-flung country that hadn't been conquered yet? I can't imagine that law enforcement on Nazi Earth is filled with upstanding people...

[thorgrim29]

Based on how steeply Nazi competency went down over the course of just the Second World War, my personal headcanon is that yeah, training standards on Nazi Earth really are just that bad, and they've only maintained control as long as they have because they have a Nazi time ship and no compunctions about using it to undo their frequent failures.

The german army was working with conscripted POWs and raw recruits at that point though, no such excuse for the earth x-ers

I can headcanon this one away, too. Supergirl looks like the Aryan ideal; her landing in Germany gives them a way of saying, "See, Aryan perfection is literally the universal standard" and turn her into a mascot. If she fell in love with Oliver before he became fuhrer, the two of them could probably murder their way to the top of the ladder pretty effectively.

Yeah I suppose, still it would have been more internally consistent IMO if he had been something like the military governor of part of North America instead of the actual dictator of the world who somehow has enough time to run around random cities fighting the only remaining black person to death. He would still have been the boss of everybody on-screen.

Also, and this is just a quibble - Heatwave's Earth-X alternate died saving a whole lot of cops from a burning building, which is an easy joke on first glance - but also, this is NAZI EARTH. So he died saving a whole lot of Nazis? Or was it in some far-flung country that hadn't been conquered yet? I can't imagine that law enforcement on Nazi Earth is filled with upstanding people...

I think he might have been messing with him at that point, Leo Snart seems like the kind of guy who would mess with people like that

[Reddish Mage]

Yeah I suppose, still it would have been more internally consistent IMO if he had been something like the military governor of part of North America instead of the actual dictator of the world who somehow has enough time to run around random cities fighting the only remaining black person to death. He would still have been the boss of everybody on-screen.



I think he might have been messing with him at that point, Leo Snart seems like the kind of guy who would mess with people like that

1) My headcanon is Ubergirl totally pushed for Oliver getting the job after she killed Earth-X Superman (her pod got there first). Also after Hitler there was a lot of Fuhrers in a very bloody line of succession.

2) I think blacks were meant to be enslaved by the Nazis in there grand scheme of something, don’t quote me on this. Then again, there are still Jews in Earth-X 2017, although they might have implied it was Oliver’s favorite kill because they are rare or something. Not going to be a perfect historical projection.

3). Nope I think Leo meant the police station was either 1) just local boys, not Nazis themselves (although if the Nazis are in charge...) or 2) Earth X Heatwave is that much of a softy. Notice - Leo is also a sentimental softy and basically says so.

[khadgar567]

new episode

Spoiler: intelligence == stupitidy

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what did i say two weeks earlier devoe gonna do some thing stupid. and i kinda hate my self cuz i was right he did some thing stupid like capturing hero and putting him supposedly escape proof cage then teach him by treating him with his loved ones. He supposed to be smart one yet he goes exactly others done. is it hard to skim the evil overlord list while writing big morons of the story.
here the passage for interested

I will not interrogate my enemies in the inner sanctum -- a small hotel well outside my borders will work just as well.

It was the 10. maxim of the list by the way.

[thorgrim29]

The Flash episode was pretty dumb... That might have something to do with Amunet being a terrible character or with Iris's ''leader'' role being very transparently about the writing team not knowing what to do with her and not at all about organic character growth. Also I still think that Killer Frost being an actual different person from Caitlin was a bad move. The rest of the plot was.... there I guess.

Spoiler: about the Thinker

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So I guess he lucked out that one of the bus metas ended up with mental powers that I assume will somehow make him resistant to the superintelligence induced degenerative disease his main body had. Also that it ended up being the fit young man and not one of the others... although watching the lady luck actress play Devoe would be hillarious.

The Legends episode was also dumb, but about 1000% more enjoyable. Legends is a dumb show that occasionally goes deep and does it well. Also super excited about a certain scoucer appearing at the end. He was apparently also in Arrow but I don't watch that show so this will be my first exposure to him since his series was canned.

[BWR]

The most recent Legends episode had me tearing my hair at the historical inaccuracies. It looked like a bad episode of Vikings, and that leather drag Darkh was wearing? How come people didn't notice he had two eyes? How come the vikings didn't think it odd that a bunch of other 'vikings' showed up in a land where none of the natives remotely resembled them?

John simply showing up and sneaking on the ship without anybody noticing: classic Constantine.
Much though I would like to see him more often on these shows (since it seems unlikely that he will get his show back), I think the rest of the Arrowverse protags would be grateful if he stays away.

[Cheesegear]

How long 'til 'This house is bitchin'.' pays off?

[khadgar567]

How long 'til 'This house is bitchin'.' pays off?

about 10 or 12 episodes but who cares we basicly need new villain to keep going since deVoe manages to swallow the bullet by him self we might need to introduce a new supposed big bad for the rest of the season. As for legends this weeks episode was the lowest point in the show using muppet as way to therapy for loss of team member. Can we please shock leo back to leonard and stabilize the f ing plot for one episode for once

[BWR]

As for legends this weeks episode was the lowest point in the show using muppet as way to therapy for loss of team member.

Just when I'd managed to suppress the memory of that muppet, you have to bring it back. Thanks a lot.
I think Rory was the audience stand-in in that scene.

[Mordar]

new episode

Spoiler: intelligence == stupitidy

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what did i say two weeks earlier devoe gonna do some thing stupid. and i kinda hate my self cuz i was right he did some thing stupid like capturing hero and putting him supposedly escape proof cage then teach him by treating him with his loved ones. He supposed to be smart one yet he goes exactly others done. is it hard to skim the evil overlord list while writing big morons of the story.
here the passage for interested
It was the 10. maxim of the list by the way.

I'm hoping that was actually misdirection.

Spoiler: What I hope

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Thinker needed something from Flash - either special readings on his power, or something to do with his hands or gloves...something...that would help set up the murder scene.
He needs Flash alive for his plan (which I still think will be well-intentioned but misguided as opposed to maniacal evil). I hope it was more than just to show Flash/us the position of Thinker's wife.And I really really really hope it was more than to provide the decision point for Iris.

Kudos to someone for having Wells call out Iris' "leadership". Of course now that she had her millisecond of "character growth" we should expect complete complicity from the cast in Iris = Leader from here forward, and she'll never be misfit again. Bah.

Still, such potential for the show and characters/actors. Except Dibney.

- M

[khadgar567]

I'm hoping that was actually misdirection.

Spoiler: What I hope

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Thinker needed something from Flash - either special readings on his power, or something to do with his hands or gloves...something...that would help set up the murder scene.
He needs Flash alive for his plan (which I still think will be well-intentioned but misguided as opposed to maniacal evil). I hope it was more than just to show Flash/us the position of Thinker's wife.And I really really really hope it was more than to provide the decision point for Iris.

Kudos to someone for having Wells call out Iris' "leadership". Of course now that she had her millisecond of "character growth" we should expect complete complicity from the cast in Iris = Leader from here forward, and she'll never be misfit again. Bah.

Still, such potential for the show and characters/actors. Except Dibney.

- M

Spoiler: spoiler for safety

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well he need to access to speed force since his body need to much calories to keep up with his mind and barry basicly proof that there is enough energy for him to live his life happily. Funny thing is he did not need to hijack a body he just needed to contact star labs and nerd duo( cisco and katelyn) will hook him up with hourly snacks bars that have enough calorie to keep him alive and happy but nope must hijack random joe's body so he can get close to team and hijack barry's body. Stupidest plan ever created by supposedly smartest villain of the series

did any one knows blondies name and why the heck she have sharapnel gauntled as meta power?

[Friv]

The most recent Legends episode had me tearing my hair at the historical inaccuracies. It looked like a bad episode of Vikings, and that leather drag Darkh was wearing? How come people didn't notice he had two eyes? How come the vikings didn't think it odd that a bunch of other 'vikings' showed up in a land where none of the natives remotely resembled them?

Legends has never gotten to even within eyeshot of historical accuracy, so I just don't mind. This isn't really any worse than the Japan episode, or even the Barnum & Bailey episode. Although they should totally have given Darkh an eyepatch.

And I kind of liked the muppet, just because of the range of exasperation and annoyance (and Nate making Leo do the voice) that resulted. If anyone had really taken it seriously, that would have been different.

[BWR]

Legends has never gotten to even within eyeshot of historical accuracy, so I just don't mind. This isn't really any worse than the Japan episode, or even the Barnum & Bailey episode.

I know I know. Sometimes the frustration just overwhelms me.

[Reddish Mage]

Mostly, I just get frustrated when Legends tackles serious subjects like slavery or Nazi death camps (ok the latter was like half an hour outside the 4 Episode cross-over special). King Arthur’s Court was hilarious. It’s hard to take Legends seriously with everything going on. It’s a problem I have with taking Martin Stein’s death seriously.

Now the Flash, in contrast, has a lot of angst that doesn’t seem to have any grounding in sensible choices.

Spoiler: latest stupidity

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Barry’s capture doesn’t do anything, unless it was all to prime Barry for not running later, and so Barry decides to try to fight off a murder charge, rather than run, because he thinks he shouldn’t have to run anymore...

[khadgar567]

we might actualy dodged the opening of second threat so new episod guys

Spoiler: alas poor de voe

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sniff sniff did i smell betreyal and heel face turn. cuz miss de voe is having dubts about lets body surf together plan so we might not need pheonix wright for this court room paso doble.

[Pex]

More dramatic I really really want to know what happens next episodes like this please and no more stupid teen movie romantic farces.

Spoiler: Fallout

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They didn't need a villain of the week this time. I like how he wasn't really a villain and Honest True didn't know he was causing problems. If they gave him his own episode he could have developed into a proper sympathetic character. Here he was only window dressing to set up the irony scene of Flash being honored while Barry is condemned.

[leafman]

Latest episode:

Spoiler: Ep.411

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Barry in prison might actually have some pay off and we get a little bit of story from Henry Allen's time in there. It will be interesting to see if Dave turns out to be more important. Also, symbols from the beginning of the season are back.

[random11]

It's not a good sign if the main protagonist is in jail and I see it as a better episode than most recent ones.

[Pex]

Latest episode:

Spoiler: Ep.411

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Barry in prison might actually have some pay off and we get a little bit of story from Henry Allen's time in there. It will be interesting to see if Dave turns out to be more important. Also, symbols from the beginning of the season are back.

I was hoping they wouldn't, but I'm willing to forgive. They referenced Barry jabbering he didn't kill anyone inferring he knew something of future events given current events and hindsight. I knew deep down the jabbering was important to season Plot Points. This was planned, so in the interest of the drama I'll go with it.

It's not a good sign if the main protagonist is in jail and I see it as a better episode than most recent ones.

Flash has always been good when they don't deal with teenage romance goofiness.

Spoiler

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Way cool to have brought in Prank from the earlier Flash tv show! Sigh, they went with Elongated Man instead of Plastic Man. I like that they're letting the character mature quickly. He can still be quirky, zany, but no more being the picked on Jerk. Interesting the press aren't questioning why the Flash hasn't been seen in awhile. Possibly Comic Book logic, but still.

[Mordar]

Spoiler

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Way cool to have brought in Prank from the earlier Flash tv show! Sigh, they went with Elongated Man instead of Plastic Man. I like that they're letting the character mature quickly. He can still be quirky, zany, but no more being the picked on Jerk. Interesting the press aren't questioning why the Flash hasn't been seen in awhile. Possibly Comic Book logic, but still.

Spoiler: Dibny

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I think he is a real mix of the two, so while I would have preferred Plastic Man, I guess EM is okay. Seems much less organically derived, though. My much bigger beef has to do with the coward-turn. The Dibny we have been presented, we all recall, was a cop so dedicated to catching the bad guys and doing what's right that he planted evidence to make the big take down. And while I thought that was originally done to advance his career, the bit where he stops Joe from planting evidence at DaVoe's house seemed to suggest something much more righteous. It didn't seem quite right to me that he would completely bail at this point out of fear. Maybe not bust in and confront Trickster and Prank directly, but do more of the sneaky rescue like we just saw him pull with the bomber.

Now, the really irksome thing...

When will the writers understand the nature of Flash's speed? The things they show him capable of doing are fine...he doesn't need to be capable of light speed. But please understand the nature of what it means that he can run faster than people can see.

Spoiler: Rant

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It means no, he doesn't trip and fall when someone sticks out their foot. His reaction time is such that it would be like us having a couple hours to consider if we want to knock our leg against someone else's leg and fall over them, or easily catch ourselves and recover. It means he doesn't have to check for cameras to fight three mooks for fear of it recording super speed...just slip the punches and land his own, or do exactly what he did and everyone would think he just dodged out of the way and they collided. Not hard. Yes, I understand it means he will never be struck in a fight with a non-speedster, will never be conveniently knocked out by falling debris so Iris can be the hero and save him...sorry, it's just how the super speed thing works.

- M

[Friv]

I'm enjoying Dibney a lot more now that he's gotten a bit further on his arc, and also now that he's a lot less sexual harassy. The actor is solid and I'm back to being happy that he's on the show.

Spoiler: Dibney

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Fear-wise, Dibney wasn't a SWAT guy, he was a forensics guy. He wasn't generally on the front lines, and he probably never saw a firefight. It's one thing to say, "Yes, I will occasionally be exposed to danger as part of my job", and another to say, "Imma charge the guy with the guns", doubly so when you've gotten used to being invincible. Dibney was obviously the former as a cop, and that's what we saw as an investigator, too - he was brash, but he always tried to talk himself out of trouble instead of charging in.

*EDIT* It's also worth noting that even his bailing wasn't giving up - when he decided that he couldn't hack, his first action was to go try to break Barry out of jail to save people. He wasn't just abandoning the whole situation out of fear.

[Mordar]

I'm enjoying Dibney a lot more now that he's gotten a bit further on his arc, and also now that he's a lot less sexual harassy. The actor is solid and I'm back to being happy that he's on the show.

Spoiler: Dibney

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Fear-wise, Dibney wasn't a SWAT guy, he was a forensics guy. He wasn't generally on the front lines, and he probably never saw a firefight. It's one thing to say, "Yes, I will occasionally be exposed to danger as part of my job", and another to say, "Imma charge the guy with the guns", doubly so when you've gotten used to being invincible. Dibney was obviously the former as a cop, and that's what we saw as an investigator, too - he was brash, but he always tried to talk himself out of trouble instead of charging in.

Is that accurate? I really think he was a cop with badge and gun, not a CSI like Barry...can anyone else confirm?

- M

[Pex]

I'm enjoying Dibney a lot more now that he's gotten a bit further on his arc, and also now that he's a lot less sexual harassy. The actor is solid and I'm back to being happy that he's on the show.

Ditto

Spoiler: Dibney

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*EDIT* It's also worth noting that even his bailing wasn't giving up - when he decided that he couldn't hack, his first action was to go try to break Barry out of jail to save people. He wasn't just abandoning the whole situation out of fear.

More proof he's not a Jerk anymore along with talking Joe out of planting evidence. I'm starting to hope they spin-off him into his own show as long as it's not a sad reason he leaves Central City or Flash does.

[Friv]

Is that accurate? I really think he was a cop with badge and gun, not a CSI like Barry...can anyone else confirm?

- M

Upon looking it up, no, I was wrong. He was actually a detective and not a CSI. But the basic gist of it remains accurate - he spent a couple years as a patrol officer, during which time it's unlikely (but not impossible) that he ever actually fired a gun. (Fun fact - apparently only about one in four officers ever fire their guns in the line of duty.) After those few years, he shifted over to being an investigator, which dramatically reduces the chance that he'll be in a shootout, and then he got fired and started his descent into self-pity.

Also, his speech to Joe was just legitimately a great speech.

[khadgar567]

Spoiler: goldberg gives life advice

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After previous weeks i must have my real super suit dibney act. I think we are finally getting proper build up for second part of the season. who knew dc universe has hank pym of its own. and all the shout out cisco can make he make a 20 year old shout out yo original pokemon by thinking bulbasaur in front of telepath.( slow clap)

so new episode of boredom guys

[Mordar]

Spoiler: goldberg gives life advice

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After previous weeks i must have my real super suit dibney act. I think we are finally getting proper build up for second part of the season. who knew dc universe has hank pym of its own. and all the shout out cisco can make he make a 20 year old shout out yo original pokemon by thinking bulbasaur in front of telepath.( slow clap)

so new episode of boredom guys

Well, I thought it was a significant improvement over the last two episodes...except for:

Spoiler: Dumb stuff

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Cecile gets non-Dark Matter Dark Matter mind reading? And wouldn't think to pick the details from Dr. Shrinker's mind that would allow her to easily prove the case against him and free Goldberg?

What would the speed have to be on that camera to catch Barry running when he makes it to China and back before the original camera finishes a pivot? Can anyone justify that image?

- M