Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

[Cheesegear]

So you think they used the wrong word?

I think 'Dread' is being used a noun. Not as an adjective. So the word is fine. If it was being used as an adjective, the more correct word would be 'dreadful'.

[Brookshw]

I think 'Dread' is being used a noun. Not as an adjective. So the word is fine. If it was being used as an adjective, the more correct word would be 'dreadful'.

Dread actually works as an adjective or so the Cambridge and Oxford dictionaries tell me (plus when the phrase is "dread Necrons" it certainly appears that dread is modifying Necrons as adjectives do). Even as a noun we're still stuck with the repetitive use of fear as part of the definition.

Anywho, if you like the writing, okay, your prerogative.

[Cheesegear]

Even as a noun we're still stuck with the repetitive use of fear as part of the definition.

I'm using the exact dictionary.com page you linked to. Then I looked at synonyms, just to make sure.
One synonym for one meaning (5; noun) of the word, is fear.
Other synonyms for other meanings of the word (11; adjective), is dire, dreadful, and horrible.

So, I was wrong. It isn't being used as a noun. But when used as an adjective, is it more common to not mean fear. Which is what I said at the start. Then I second guessed myself. Now I'm back to my original meaning. Turns out, words have multiple meanings depending on context. That is, Dread doesn't always mean fear. The dictionary.com reference you used even says as much.

You can know that a thing is bad without necessarily being afraid of it.

I dread going to work. I am definitely not afraid of going to work.

You know Space Marines don't afraid of anything. So, with context...Maybe, just maybe, it's the other meaning of the word. Especially if it's being used as an adjective. Which it probably is.

[Artanis]

Even if Astartes don't get scared, I would think they would be able to tell when something is scary to normal people, even if only so that they can better anticipate how quickly nearby Guardsmen will start getting shot by their Commisar require morale boosts.

[Drasius]

Even if Astartes don't get scared, I would think they would be able to tell when something is scary to normal people, even if only so that they can better anticipate how quickly nearby Guardsmen will start getting shot by their Commisar require morale boosts.

It's a fairly simple test. If a marine ever has:
i) lots of enemies to kill, or
ii) cause to think "gee, this is going to suck"

It's going to be scary for regular, non-gene boosted meatsacks.

If both i) and ii), it's going to be really scary, but probably not for very long.

[Brookshw]

I'm using the exact dictionary.com page you linked to. Then I looked at synonyms, just to make sure.
One synonym for one meaning (5; noun) of the word, is fear.
Other synonyms for other meanings of the word (11; adjective), is dire, dreadful, and horrible.

So, I was wrong. It isn't being used as a noun. But when used as an adjective, is it more common to not mean fear. Which is what I said at the start. Then I second guessed myself. Now I'm back to my original meaning. Turns out, words have multiple meanings depending on context. That is, Dread doesn't always mean fear. The dictionary.com reference you used even says as much.

You can know that a thing is bad without necessarily being afraid of it.

I dread going to work. I am definitely not afraid of going to work.

You know Space Marines don't afraid of anything. So, with context...Maybe, just maybe, it's the other meaning of the word. Especially if it's being used as an adjective. Which it probably is.

I....what? We're talking synonyms to establish the meaning of the word itself instead of the definitions? The adjective definitions of the word in dictionary.com are "greatly feared; frightful; terrible." and "held in awe or reverential fear." both of which involve fear (or maybe the SM are in awe of them? Pretty sure we can discard that meaning in the context.). Iirc Oxford's also allowed for anxiety, not sure if that's any better. There's also a humorous usage definition similar to your hypo iirc (or maybe the anxiety one), so maybe the SM are joking???

Or.........maybe the writers who told us that the Ultramarines needed to make a new base for their chapter and recruiting don't know what they're doing, used poetic narrative that's inconsistent with SMs, and should be viciously flogged. Heck, the Ork response of calling them Tin Men (iirc) seems closer to an emotionally appropriate response that we should have see coming from a SM.

Anyway, that's enough semantics for me.

Even if Astartes don't get scared, I would think they would be able to tell when something is scary to normal people, even if only so that they can better anticipate how quickly nearby Guardsmen will start getting shot by their Commisar require morale boosts.

I'm sure they could, some chapters better than others likely.

[Destro_Yersul]

I....what? We're talking synonyms to establish the meaning of the word itself instead of the definitions? The adjective definitions of the word in dictionary.com are "greatly feared; frightful; terrible." and "held in awe or reverential fear." both of which involve fear (or maybe the SM are in awe of them? Pretty sure we can discard that meaning in the context.). Iirc Oxford's also allowed for anxiety, not sure if that's any better. There's also a humorous usage definition similar to your hypo iirc (or maybe the anxiety one), so maybe the SM are joking???

Ok. What does 'wave' mean? Is it that thing that water does on the beach? Is it when humans shake their hands at each other in greeting? Is it the mathematical representation of the aforementioned water thing, or the common occurence at sporting events that looks a lot like the water thing? Obviously words are only allowed to have one meaning, so you're going to have to pick.

[Brookshw]

Ok. What does 'wave' mean? Is it that thing that water does on the beach? Is it when humans shake their hands at each other in greeting? Is it the mathematical representation of the aforementioned water thing, or the common occurence at sporting events that looks a lot like the water thing? Obviously words are only allowed to have one meaning, so you're going to have to pick.

Try again, there's a finite set of meaning, if you aren't acting within them then you're making up your own language.

[Cheesegear]

I....what? We're talking synonyms to establish the meaning of the word itself instead of the definitions?

When a word has multiple meanings, and you need to pick which meaning it might be, using context...Yes.
I learned to do that in what, Grade 6?

[Destro_Yersul]

Try again, there's a finite set of meaning, if you aren't acting within them then you're making up your own language.

So then what's wrong with 'terrible' as one of the set of meanings for the word 'dread?'

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Brookshw, you seem to be ignoring one key point: I can dread going to work without being afraid of it.

"How was your day today?"
"Dreadful, it seemed liked it'd never end."

Why did I sleep in a few days ago? Dread Monday reared it's ugly head.

None of these refer to fear, but all of these refer to strong apprehension. Why, exactly, can the Space Marine not be using the word in this context? You can point to all the dictionaries you like, but dictionaries merely attempt to describe a word, they don't say what the word MUST mean. The examples I gave above are more proof that the word can mean what we're saying it can than any dictionary entry. That's how language works; people use it, other people understand it. Having some dictionary write down a meaning has no place in deciding what a word means.

[bluntpencil]

Dread actually works as an adjective or so the Cambridge and Oxford dictionaries tell me (plus when the phrase is "dread Necrons" it certainly appears that dread is modifying Necrons as adjectives do). Even as a noun we're still stuck with the repetitive use of fear as part of the definition.

Anywho, if you like the writing, okay, your prerogative.

Hamlet; Act One, Scene Two

 My dread lord,
Your leave and favor to return to France,
From whence though willingly I came to Denmark
To show my duty in your coronation,
Yet now, I must confess, that duty done,
My thoughts and wishes bend again toward France
And bow them to your gracious leave and pardon.

'Dread', in this sense is an adjective meaning 'respected', perhaps with a tinge of fear and/or awe. It is, of course, archaic, and therefore suits Adeptus Astartes, as far as linguistics go, for describing an opponent worthy of respect.

[Voidhawk]

Try again, there's a finite set of meaning, if you aren't acting within them then you're making up your own language.

Completely incorrect. The set of possible meanings for any particular group of characters/sounds/gestures is most likely infinite, and is certainly constantly in flux. For example sarcasm and insults have such a huge influence on the evolution of language, that many words today have the exact opposite meaning to how they were used a few hundred years ago, simply because people started using them as a derogatory term. Dictionaries are Descriptive books of common uses of language, not Proscriptive guides to all possible uses.

This comic has a short and interesting discussion on the subject, putting down several philosophers ideas in a way suitable for lay people.

Anyway, this thread is a completely bonkers place to be having complicated philosophical discussions on the subject of language. Going back to the race-intro trailer, my questions are:
1) Why is there an object that looks like the Eye of Night from Battlefleet Gothic on the planet?

Spoiler: Eye of Night

Show

and, 2) Why is the Necron Lord talking about defeating the Old Ones? The Necrons killed them all off before they back-stabbed the C'Tan, it was the Eldar that were still a danger after the War In Heaven. Or is this just his senility, rather than that of the writers?

[Xenopax]

Completely incorrect. The set of possible meanings for any particular group of characters/sounds/gestures is most likely infinite, and is certainly constantly in flux. For example sarcasm and insults have such a huge influence on the evolution of language, that many words today have the exact opposite meaning to how they were used a few hundred years ago, simply because people started using them as a derogatory term. Dictionaries are Descriptive books of common uses of language, not Proscriptive guides to all possible uses.

This comic has a short and interesting discussion on the subject, putting down several philosophers ideas in a way suitable for lay people.

Anyway, this thread is a completely bonkers place to be having complicated philosophical discussions on the subject of language. Going back to the race-intro trailer, my questions are:
1) Why is there an object that looks like the Eye of Night from Battlefleet Gothic on the planet?

Spoiler: Eye of Night

Show

and, 2) Why is the Necron Lord talking about defeating the Old Ones? The Necrons killed them all off before they back-stabbed the C'Tan, it was the Eldar that were still a danger after the War In Heaven. Or is this just his senility, rather than that of the writers?

1) No clue.
2) As far as we know there are no old ones left. I don't think it was 100% proved either way that the old ones are extinct. I think somewhere in one of the Eldar pages on the wiki there was a quote on the possibility that old ones still exist. Might have been orks.

[Wraith]

2) As far as we know there are no old ones left. I don't think it was 100% proved either way that the old ones are extinct. I think somewhere in one of the Eldar pages on the wiki there was a quote on the possibility that old ones still exist. Might have been orks.

Isha and Cegorach are still around, albeit somewhat inaccessible. One might also count Khaine as being around collectively, as it were, and I'm reasonably sure there was a reference in some Codex Eldar or other that some Old Ones may have fled into the webway and sealed it off to prevent pursuit.

Having been proverbially sharpening their axes for the last 65 million years, it wouldn't be too hard to imagine that the Necrons are so petty as to still be hung up on a war long over and consider any remnants of the Old Ones as being enough reason to burn worlds again.

[Xenopax]

Isha and Cegorach are still around, albeit somewhat inaccessible. One might also count Khaine as being around collectively, as it were, and I'm reasonably sure there was a reference in some Codex Eldar or other that some Old Ones may have fled into the webway and sealed it off to prevent pursuit.

Having been proverbially sharpening their axes for the last 65 million years, it wouldn't be too hard to imagine that the Necrons are so petty as to still be hung up on a war long over and consider any remnants of the Old Ones as being enough reason to burn worlds again.

Eldar gods were Old Ones? I thought they were Warp Gods like Nurgle and Tzeentch (Except less mutation and bad things).

[Cikomyr]

Eldar gods were Old Ones? I thought they were Warp Gods like Nurgle and Tzeentch (Except less mutation and bad things).

Why couldnt they be both? ;)

[Xenopax]

Why couldnt they be both? ;)

That would be interesting. A few of the surviving old ones decide to play with the warp some more and strengthen themselves incase the necrons come back. They turn themselves into idols of worship to the Eldar, gaining power in the warp. Two could have gone to the Orks and become Gork and Mork. (The grammer in that sentence kills me but whatever). Cue Slaanesh devouring the Eldar Gods/Old Ones. The Orks believed that Gork and Mork were the WAAGHiest Gits around and when enough orks believe it....

[Cheesegear]

Eldar gods were Old Ones?

The Old Ones are the Eldar Gods and the C'Tan. There are strong hints that the C'Tan and Eldar Gods were the same race.
Eldar and Orks were created by the same beings. Not even a 'hint' or shifty reading. It is actual canon. Both races developed to fight the Necrontyr.
Gork is Khaine, Mork is Cegorach.

They are not Chaos Gods, and the presence of Chaos is anathema to them.

Ynnead appears to be a whole new breed of Eldar God, unrelated to the Old Ones, with a little too much in common to a Chaos God. But, everyone knows that the Aeldari were secretly Chaos worshipping scum and always have been.

[deuterio12]

Khaine is basically an aspect of Khorne anyway. Kaela Mensha Khaine loves blood and war and stuff and its avatars have the freaking Mark of Khorne on their head just in case of doubt.

[Cheesegear]

Khaine is basically an aspect of Khorne anyway.

[Citation Needed]

[Blackhawk748]

Khaine is basically an aspect of Khorne anyway. Kaela Mensha Khaine loves blood and war and stuff and its avatars have the freaking Mark of Khorne on their head just in case of doubt.

Are they related? Possibly. Are they the same? No, thats pretty much spelled out for us. On top of this Khaine is more calm than Khorne (not that that's saying much) and really does care about honor more so than Khorne does on the average.

[deuterio12]

[Citation Needed]

Besides all the too-obvious similarities (even their names only have two different letters), it has been implied that Khaine is the Chaos God Khorne by another name, or possibly a minor aspect of Khorne who has gained his own consciousness. from the wiki itself.

Now yah move git, show us da citation for Gork being aktually a kayos god in dizguize because da wiki sura haz none.

[Cheesegear]

it has been implied that Khaine is the Chaos God Khorne by another name, or possibly a minor aspect of Khorne who has gained his own consciousness. from the wiki itself.

The part you're quoting is WHFB fluff. Which, not only not being 40K fluff, is also not even valid anymore in its own universe.
Try again.

[deuterio12]

By all means, you at least try once with a citation for Gork being Khorne.

[Cheesegear]

By all means, you at least try once with a citation for Gork being Khorne.

That's exactly what I didn't say. Try again.

Eldar and (Kr)Orks were created by the same beings to fight Necrons. Codex: Necrons (3rd Ed.); Codex: Orks (4th Ed.).
Gork is almost definitely Khaine. Stated by a Necron. Xenology (2006).

[LeSwordfish]

By all means, you at least try once with a citation for Gork being Khorne.

When did he say that he was???

Gork is Khaine, Mork is Cegorach.

I guess maybe if you're going off equivalency and saying Khaine = Khorne? So are you asking him to prove a point that you suggested? That he just disproved?

[Cheesegear]

I dread discussions with deuterio.

...Nailed it.

[deuterio12]

I guess maybe if you're going off equivalency and saying Khaine = Khorne? So are you asking him to prove a point that you suggested? That he just disproved?

He didn't disprove anything, only outright ignored most of my point (god of war and violence with a severe case of bloodletting and almost identical names if not for two letters), then somehow claimed that just because something happened in the past it is no longer valid.

[LeSwordfish]

I dread discussions with deuterio.

...Nailed it.

D: Khaine is Khorne
C: Prove it.
D: (link). Also, prove Gork is Khorne
C: That link is for a different canon.
D: Yeah, well, prove Gork is Khorne.
C: I never said that.
D: Just because it's a different canon, doesn't mean it's not true!

It's genuinely the worst-faith arguing I've ever seen, and god knows we see enough round here. INB4: "Strawman"