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  1. - Top - End - #901
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    As a lover of medieval literature, I don't appreciate the conflation of "literary quality" and "acceptable values". That said, I did find The Taming of the Shrew offputting despite my best efforts.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    Everything else you said is decently arguable (as in, I'm on the fence), but didn't the parents bury the hatchet only after the Duke basically showed up with the big proverbial guns?
    Technically, yes, but given that the Duke's prior displays of force failed to stop the fighting, I'm pretty sure that's not what the scene is meant to imply.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    Right. Ah well. I have to step out for a bit. Don't you folks argue for weird and violent things while I'm out, you hear?
    The point I was making is that there really is a Romeo-and-Juliet-inspired story where Romeo takes the "murder both families" approach that you've been recommending a lot.

    And it didn't end well for him.

    Suffice to say that narrative causality tends to conspire against people who try mass murder of their own families. They tend to be cast as Villains, due for a Comeuppance.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    For the record, Shakespeare scholars generally don't pitch R&J as a love story of any kind. The kids are supposed to be dumb and flighty and make poor life choices, they're freaking children. That's why it's a tragedy - these innocent idiots had their lives destroyed by a dumb fued between their families. It's "gang war is bad mmkay" not "look how romantic".

    And Juliet's age is actually specifically a nod to how gross and highborn her family is. Arranged marriage wasn't weird in Shakespeare's time but getting married before 18-20 actually genuinely was - you see it a lot in fiction at the time specifically as a device to indicate a family so obsessed with prestige and power that they ignore common decency in the treatment of their children. The Capulets are sketchy foreigners with a mindless vendetta and no propriety and they pay for it with the loss of their child.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindeloke View Post
    Juliet's age is actually specifically a nod to how gross and highborn her family is. Arranged marriage wasn't weird in Shakespeare's time but getting married before 18-20 actually genuinely was - you see it a lot in fiction at the time specifically as a device to indicate a family so obsessed with prestige and power that they ignore common decency in the treatment of their children. The Capulets are sketchy foreigners with a mindless vendetta and no propriety and they pay for it with the loss of their child.
    Or, as TV Tropes puts it:

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...RomeoAndJuliet

    it's important to keep in mind that a lot of the talk about Juliet's marriage was meant to come off as awful, especially all that jazz about how thirteen-year-olds having babies is awesome. Elizabethans knew darn well that younger than she happy mothers are not made, even without the benefit of modern medicine. Girls of Juliet's high social status certainly married that young for economic or political reasons (see below), but it would have been considered at the very least stupid if not immoral to actually consummate the marriage before a few years had passed. Hell, it's also in the text as Juliet's father is really off-put by Paris' desire to marry Juliet and says they should wait a couple of years at least.

    Some modern viewers also tend to miss the gravity of Juliet's betrothal to Paris. A betrothal was essentially a business merger - and it meant that the Capulets stood to gain either money or political favour by marrying Juliet to Paris. Juliet refusing to marry him is not simply turning down a date she doesn't like; it's deciding the fate of their entire estate and family. That is what Lord Capulet is so furious about when Juliet tries to delay the marriage.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    And who, I ask, sheds a tear for dear Rosaline, the original object of Romeo's affections? What is she, chopped liver?
    Eh, Rosaline probably saw Romeo as a creepy stalker. There's no evidence she was interested in him at all.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post

    And to put this whole story into modern context requires a bit of work ... Juliet is either 13 or 15 as this all transpires. One needs to rewrite the story slightly so that a modern audience won't gag.
    I saw a performance where Juliet was portrayed as a brash young woman who basically drove the plot, bullying her nurse and the friar into it. Part of what really sold it was the actress was only 17 and absolutely nailed the "rich entitled spoiled teenager" aspect of it. All the way down to the dramatic suicide at the end. Romeo of course was pretty much a teenage boy ruled by his hormones and was perfectly willing to go along with anything that would get him in bed with her. Plus he was all into the grand romantic gesture, like risking being killed by overstaying his exile and later returning. Actor was older, but Romeo usually is played as all the worst aspects of teenage boys who write bad poetry and pine after women that won't look at them.
    Last edited by Seward; 2019-01-17 at 02:31 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Seward View Post
    Eh, Rosaline probably saw Romeo as a creepy stalker. There's no evidence she was interested in him at all.
    She was right - in his first scene he admits to offering her money for sex.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindeloke View Post
    For the record, Shakespeare scholars generally don't pitch R&J as a love story of any kind. The kids are supposed to be dumb and flighty and make poor life choices, they're freaking children. That's why it's a tragedy - these innocent idiots had their lives destroyed by a dumb fued between their families. It's "gang war is bad mmkay" not "look how romantic".
    Making the gang warfare what drives the plot instead of set dressing that the title characters work around would have been helpful, then.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Making the gang warfare what drives the plot instead of set dressing that the title characters work around would have been helpful, then.
    Doesn't it drive every major event and decision that the characters make, up to and including causing the death of several (non titular) characters?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Yenta {aka} Friar Lawrence
    I cackled, I did.

    No discussion of R&J is complete without the definitive version of that play being linked to.
    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    As a lover of medieval literature, I don't appreciate the conflation of "literary quality" and "acceptable values". That said, I did find The Taming of the Shrew offputting despite my best efforts.
    It is rather tiresome, though I will say that my only chance to see a play in Stratford, SRO, was that play so we went and saw it. A most excellent production ...
    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    She was right - in his first scene he admits to offering her money for sex.
    Wait, the hookers and blackjack theme isn't that far off?
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-01-17 at 03:10 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Wait, the hookers and blackjack theme isn't that far off?
    I take it back! I take it all back!

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Doesn't it drive every major event and decision that the characters make, up to and including causing the death of several (non titular) characters?
    In the sense that being on a ship in the ocean drives the events of a pirate story, sure.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-01-17 at 03:33 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    That's good to know, since it's the worst thing the dude wrote by far and I'll rail against the teacher unfortunate enough to think my child should spend a second on it in school.
    I won't say it's the worst thing he wrote, but one thing that amuses me about the Shakespeare Truthers (i.e. the people who don't believe he could have actually written all those plays) is that one of their points is "No one person could have written so many great plays!" Well, he wrote a lot of mediocre-to-bad stuff, too. It just so happens that he wrote enough great and archetypal plays and sonnets that we remember those well and those have kept their influence over the next 500 or however many years of literature.

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Oh God, you're one of those insufferable Shakespeare hipsters. Just because R&J is his most popular play doesn't mean it's his worst. Not while Taming Of The Shrew still draws breath.
    Ah, but Taming of the Shrew was the inspiration for what I still consider the best romantic comedy of the last 20, maybe even 30 years.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    On the topic of R&J, it's been a really long time since I've read it, but I distinctly remember my ninth grade English teacher pointing out that at one point Juliette's father threatens to kick her out (for not wanting to marry the guy he wants her to) and that, if she'd actually gotten him to do it, it would have been a much simpler way to run off with Romeo than faking her own death was.

    Of course, I also approve of the "spoiled rich teenager" version of Juliette listed up thread, and I can't imagine that Juliette stooping to letting herself get kicked out.

    Either way, I've never understood how anyone sees the story as romantic. It's idiot lust filled teenagers making stupid choices because they're stupid lustful teenagers. But then, even modern pop cultural "grand romantic gestures" tend to come off as more creepy than romantic to me anyway.
    Last edited by Yirggzmb; 2019-01-17 at 03:41 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Ah, but Taming of the Shrew was the inspiration for what I still consider the best romantic comedy of the last 20, maybe even 30 years.
    Love, Actually? Maybe When Harry Met Sally?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Ah, but Taming of the Shrew was the inspiration for what I still consider the best romantic comedy of the last 20, maybe even 30 years.
    Tell me you're talking about the one with Heath Ledger and Julia Stiles? I have such a fondness for that movie to this day.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Love, Actually? Maybe When Harry Met Sally?
    Nope. And I think When Harry Met Sally was 1986, which puts it outside the window I set.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    Tell me you're talking about the one with Heath Ledger and Julia Stiles? I have such a fondness for that movie to this day.
    That's the one. I don't think I've ever gotten tired of watching it. Delightful and funny all the way through.
    Last edited by Ruck; 2019-01-17 at 03:47 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Nope.
    Ooooh, I'm sorry, I didn't know you meant the Heath Ledger one. You know, A Knight's Tale. It's got Wash!
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Okay, lessee...

    The Capulets: Sex traffickers who want to auction off their young daughter's virginity and get pissy when she doesn't want it.
    Romeo: Idiot that romanticizes his own pedophilia.
    The Montagues: Meh.
    Juliet: One very, very, very, very unlucky teenager.

    Okay, I take it back: Juliet should be the one doing the killing...
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Ooooh, I'm sorry, I didn't know you meant the Heath Ledger one. You know, A Knight's Tale. It's got Wash!
    Please pardon me while I hurl. I guess that tastes differ ... even if It's got Wat! there may be a few redeeming moments in the film. (I mostly refer to the one playing Chaucer, Paul Bettany)

    Quote Originally Posted by T_W
    Okay, I take it back: Juliet should be the one doing the killing...
    here's an idea: nurse locks her in her room until she quits sulking. That way, nobody dies. (But I suppose the reply is "where's the drama in that" which would be a fair point).
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-01-17 at 04:14 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    here's an idea: nurse locks her in her room until she quits sulking. That way, nobody dies. (But I suppose the reply is "where's the drama in that" which would be a fair point).
    Gets a bit weirder when you consider that the Capulets were a huge part of the problem and willing to sell their 13-to-15-year-old daughter's virginity to the highest bidder, no?
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
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    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Please pardon me while I hurl. I guess that tastes differ ... even if It's got Wat! there may be a few redeeming moments in the film. (I mostly refer to the one playing Chaucer, Paul Bettany)
    Oh, I was just trying to pull out another Heath Ledger romcom. I do judge you for Love, Actually though. And verrrrrry slightly for Paul Bettany over Mark Addy. I've never been unamused by him.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Making the gang warfare what drives the plot instead of set dressing that the title characters work around would have been helpful, then.
    It also would've been way too easy. Any hack can write a story between feuding families, have it end with everyone dying, and cap it with "look, when people fight, people die".

    But that comes without any particular insight. Everyone knows that people engaged in violence risk damages to themselves; it's a no-brainer. Pointing out the collateral damage, on the other hand, makes a much more compelling argument; especially as the collateral damage resulted from the fighting itself, rather than any one action committed by one person.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironsmith View Post
    It also would've been way too easy. Any hack can write a story between feuding families, have it end with everyone dying, and cap it with "look, when people fight, people die".

    But that comes without any particular insight. Everyone knows that people engaged in violence risk damages to themselves; it's a no-brainer. Pointing out the collateral damage, on the other hand, makes a much more compelling argument; especially as the collateral damage resulted from the fighting itself, rather than any one action committed by one person.
    Except when the vast majority of the takeaway is either "aw its a tragic love story" or "see, hormones make you stupid," it's a pretty big failure as a gang war morality story. Of course, any old hack can make that mistake.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironsmith View Post
    It also would've been way too easy. Any hack can write a story between feuding families, have it end with everyone dying, and cap it with "look, when people fight, people die".

    But that comes without any particular insight. Everyone knows that people engaged in violence risk damages to themselves; it's a no-brainer. Pointing out the collateral damage, on the other hand, makes a much more compelling argument; especially as the collateral damage resulted from the fighting itself, rather than any one action committed by one person.
    How about: "Look, when people fight, they cause collateral damage, and whoever took the collateral damage will cause the people fighting to die." ?
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    How about: "Look, when people fight, they cause collateral damage, and whoever took the collateral damage will cause the people fighting to die." ?
    Given that doesn't actually happen, I don't think that's a valid takeaway.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Given that doesn't actually happen, I don't think that's a valid takeaway.
    It frightens me how much murder is in T_W's ideal world.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Given that doesn't actually happen, I don't think that's a valid takeaway.
    True, true, I was pondering how it would work if it did happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    True, true, I was pondering how it would work if it did happen.
    Badly? "indiscriminate murder spree" is one of those things that will make things worse 100% of the time.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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