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2019-01-17, 01:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread
As a lover of medieval literature, I don't appreciate the conflation of "literary quality" and "acceptable values". That said, I did find The Taming of the Shrew offputting despite my best efforts.
ungelic is us
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2019-01-17, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread
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2019-01-17, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread
The point I was making is that there really is a Romeo-and-Juliet-inspired story where Romeo takes the "murder both families" approach that you've been recommending a lot.
And it didn't end well for him.
Suffice to say that narrative causality tends to conspire against people who try mass murder of their own families. They tend to be cast as Villains, due for a Comeuppance.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2019-01-17, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread
For the record, Shakespeare scholars generally don't pitch R&J as a love story of any kind. The kids are supposed to be dumb and flighty and make poor life choices, they're freaking children. That's why it's a tragedy - these innocent idiots had their lives destroyed by a dumb fued between their families. It's "gang war is bad mmkay" not "look how romantic".
And Juliet's age is actually specifically a nod to how gross and highborn her family is. Arranged marriage wasn't weird in Shakespeare's time but getting married before 18-20 actually genuinely was - you see it a lot in fiction at the time specifically as a device to indicate a family so obsessed with prestige and power that they ignore common decency in the treatment of their children. The Capulets are sketchy foreigners with a mindless vendetta and no propriety and they pay for it with the loss of their child.
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2019-01-17, 02:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread
Or, as TV Tropes puts it:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...RomeoAndJuliet
it's important to keep in mind that a lot of the talk about Juliet's marriage was meant to come off as awful, especially all that jazz about how thirteen-year-olds having babies is awesome. Elizabethans knew darn well that younger than she happy mothers are not made, even without the benefit of modern medicine. Girls of Juliet's high social status certainly married that young for economic or political reasons (see below), but it would have been considered at the very least stupid if not immoral to actually consummate the marriage before a few years had passed. Hell, it's also in the text as Juliet's father is really off-put by Paris' desire to marry Juliet and says they should wait a couple of years at least.
Some modern viewers also tend to miss the gravity of Juliet's betrothal to Paris. A betrothal was essentially a business merger - and it meant that the Capulets stood to gain either money or political favour by marrying Juliet to Paris. Juliet refusing to marry him is not simply turning down a date she doesn't like; it's deciding the fate of their entire estate and family. That is what Lord Capulet is so furious about when Juliet tries to delay the marriage.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2019-01-17, 02:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-01-17, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread
I saw a performance where Juliet was portrayed as a brash young woman who basically drove the plot, bullying her nurse and the friar into it. Part of what really sold it was the actress was only 17 and absolutely nailed the "rich entitled spoiled teenager" aspect of it. All the way down to the dramatic suicide at the end. Romeo of course was pretty much a teenage boy ruled by his hormones and was perfectly willing to go along with anything that would get him in bed with her. Plus he was all into the grand romantic gesture, like risking being killed by overstaying his exile and later returning. Actor was older, but Romeo usually is played as all the worst aspects of teenage boys who write bad poetry and pine after women that won't look at them.
Last edited by Seward; 2019-01-17 at 02:31 PM.
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2019-01-17, 02:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-01-17, 02:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-01-17, 02:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-01-17, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread
I cackled, I did.
No discussion of R&J is complete without the definitive version of that play being linked to.
It is rather tiresome, though I will say that my only chance to see a play in Stratford, SRO, was that play so we went and saw it. A most excellent production ... Wait, the hookers and blackjack theme isn't that far off?Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-01-17 at 03:10 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2019-01-17, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-01-17, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Peelee; 2019-01-17 at 03:33 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-01-17, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread
I won't say it's the worst thing he wrote, but one thing that amuses me about the Shakespeare Truthers (i.e. the people who don't believe he could have actually written all those plays) is that one of their points is "No one person could have written so many great plays!" Well, he wrote a lot of mediocre-to-bad stuff, too. It just so happens that he wrote enough great and archetypal plays and sonnets that we remember those well and those have kept their influence over the next 500 or however many years of literature.
Ah, but Taming of the Shrew was the inspiration for what I still consider the best romantic comedy of the last 20, maybe even 30 years.
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2019-01-17, 03:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread
On the topic of R&J, it's been a really long time since I've read it, but I distinctly remember my ninth grade English teacher pointing out that at one point Juliette's father threatens to kick her out (for not wanting to marry the guy he wants her to) and that, if she'd actually gotten him to do it, it would have been a much simpler way to run off with Romeo than faking her own death was.
Of course, I also approve of the "spoiled rich teenager" version of Juliette listed up thread, and I can't imagine that Juliette stooping to letting herself get kicked out.
Either way, I've never understood how anyone sees the story as romantic. It's idiot lust filled teenagers making stupid choices because they're stupid lustful teenagers. But then, even modern pop cultural "grand romantic gestures" tend to come off as more creepy than romantic to me anyway.Last edited by Yirggzmb; 2019-01-17 at 03:41 PM.
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2019-01-17, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-01-17, 03:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-01-17, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Ruck; 2019-01-17 at 03:47 PM.
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2019-01-17, 03:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-01-17, 04:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread
Okay, lessee...
The Capulets: Sex traffickers who want to auction off their young daughter's virginity and get pissy when she doesn't want it.
Romeo: Idiot that romanticizes his own pedophilia.
The Montagues: Meh.
Juliet: One very, very, very, very unlucky teenager.
Okay, I take it back: Juliet should be the one doing the killing...
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2019-01-17, 04:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread
Please pardon me while I hurl. I guess that tastes differ ... even if It's got Wat! there may be a few redeeming moments in the film. (I mostly refer to the one playing Chaucer, Paul Bettany)
Originally Posted by T_WLast edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-01-17 at 04:14 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2019-01-17, 04:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread
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2019-01-17, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-01-17, 04:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread
It also would've been way too easy. Any hack can write a story between feuding families, have it end with everyone dying, and cap it with "look, when people fight, people die".
But that comes without any particular insight. Everyone knows that people engaged in violence risk damages to themselves; it's a no-brainer. Pointing out the collateral damage, on the other hand, makes a much more compelling argument; especially as the collateral damage resulted from the fighting itself, rather than any one action committed by one person.
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2019-01-17, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-01-17, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-01-17, 04:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-01-17, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-01-17, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-01-17, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1151 - The Discussion Thread
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”