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2019-03-17, 06:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
"Extremely minimal restrictions" to me equals basically to "Well, I have to pick something that has two yellow eyes and it needs to have roughly the size that I painted the shadows till now".
Of course, picking a monster that specifically does NOT always have two yellow eyes would be a nice irony, and a cool "Gotcha!" moment if played right. It's the "played right" I am missing right now, because if MitD came out tomorrow and said "I always showed to eyes because I wanted to fit in so badly", I personally would consider it a hard sell. A couple of times he is lazy, a couple of times he is a little defiant, another time he soo wants to impress his "friends" to be scary, and NONE of those times he changes his eyes' appearance??
Not even when sleeping??
Coming to think of it, in his very first appearance he HAD different eyes. The first two panels he appeared in #23 he had evil-looking eyes. So maybe we should take that as a hint? I am still not convinced, but maybe we need to wait for more hints.
ETA:
1. How many pictures with MitD in the circus do we get? Because if he DOES get the reactions due to changing his appearance, then this is where we should see him changing appearances, right?
2. In your last paragraph you say the goblin children like him because he changes so much.
That makes sense.
But in your first paragraph you say he does NOT change because he doesn't like how people respond to his default appearance.
Which doesn't match up - if he was happy finally finding someone who liked him - the kids - then he should now KEEP CHANGING, because that WORKED.Last edited by Mightymosy; 2019-03-17 at 06:34 PM.
Boytoy of the -Fan-Club
What? It's not my fault we don't get a good-aligned female paragon of promiscuity!
I heard Blue is the color of irony on the internet.
I once fought against a dozen people defending a lady - until the mods took me down in the end.
Want to see my prison tatoo?
*Branded for double posting*
Sometimes, being bad feels so good.
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2019-03-17, 06:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
There's another thing about the circus scene that makes me lean Protean: the context. Ignore the reactions, just the fact that the MitD being what it is is worth an entire sideshow. Various monsters being weird or rare would be somewhat analogous to a freak show; either they have abilities they show off, or they just have uncommon or rare physical features, but they're virtually always team shows. The MitD is explicitly told that his role is to not do anything, and just be there. Just the sheer fact that he is what he is makes a show. A lot of monsters don't really make sense for this in-context. A snake with a human face sure would be weird to look at, sure, but would a circus owner simply say to one, "eh, just exist onstage, that's enough for a solo act"? Like most things with the circus scene, this is very subjective, but I don't see most monsters being able to bring in crowds simply by standing around for a minute or so. And certainly not able to get repeat customers like Right-Eye's family; the snake with a face will look exactly like they did the first time, and the second, and so on. A Protean, though, would be practically a new experience every time.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-03-17, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Obviously we don't see MitD on stage; we see him in darkness before he takes the stage, and when we see him on stage, it's from the audience's perspective.
I feel like you expect that if it was the Protean, Rich would've dropped some huge hint about the shapeshifting by now, when that actually would have entirely given away the game.
I don't know how you got there from here. He found goblin kids who liked watching him change shape. So what? They're not around anymore, and the vast majority of people he meets find him weird or ugly and it makes him uncomfortable. And he doesn't like being looked at even though the kids like looking at him.
I'm guessing you haven't read Start of Darkness, because this is all pretty clear there.Last edited by Ruck; 2019-03-17 at 06:39 PM.
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2019-03-17, 06:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Yep, I agree, the Protean would be the best fit for the circus scene so far!
I don't think Snake with face or other weird monster would not fit, but Protean certainly is best here.
Again, like I said to Pelee:
This line of reasoning reads like
"If you can't succeed (by the rules), it's ok to cheat"
Rich COULD have chosen a NON-shapeshifting monster. Or a shapeshifting monster that does NOT change ALL THE TIME, involuntarily, unless specifically trying not to.
If he chooses a monster, which has, in its description "eyes change around all the time", and then proceeds to paint "eyes always the same", without giving a clue that the visual appearance might be misleading, then that feels like cheating, to me, yes.
But I am tired arguing this point. You don't want to be convinced, I don't want to convince you.
I posted in the hope someone had an earlier monster manual entry that resolved this issue, but unfortunately no one has so far.
So, I will go back to lurking until the next interesting argument, or clue, comes up. Good night!
I have read SoD. I was talking about what you posted. You said he didn't like how people reacted to his changing looks, when his changing looks made him friends with the Gobbo children. For me that's a dissonance, but make of that what you will.Boytoy of the -Fan-Club
What? It's not my fault we don't get a good-aligned female paragon of promiscuity!
I heard Blue is the color of irony on the internet.
I once fought against a dozen people defending a lady - until the mods took me down in the end.
Want to see my prison tatoo?
*Branded for double posting*
Sometimes, being bad feels so good.
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2019-03-17, 07:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
And I think numerous explanations have been provided for why a Protean MitD's eyes wouldn't change, both Watsonian (all the stuff about fitting in and friendship and not liking people looking at him) and Doylist (if Rich wanted a Protean, he can't draw it in a way that would immediately give away the species and spoil the reveal).
It seems like you think "a species that has two yellow eyes unchanging by default" is more important than "a species that fits the themes of the character's journey and the story Rich wants to tell," and I don't.
It's not dissonant at all, and I feel like to think it so you have to stretch what I said to the point of "Literally every person MitD meets thinks he's ugly," which is a stretch to the point of dishonesty.Last edited by Ruck; 2019-03-17 at 07:08 PM.
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2019-03-17, 08:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-03-17, 08:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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2019-03-17, 08:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
It feels like everyone’s extra-combative these days. I mean, debates used to get heated sometimes, but now I almost feel like people are looking for reasons *to* get confrontational with each other rather than looking for ways to *avoid* being confrontational. I liked it better before. :(
Worth bearing in mind is that we’re solving a puzzle in which we don’t have all the pieces. And not only are we missing some, we don’t know how many we’re missing! Maybe we have 50%, maybe we have 10%! As such, a little humility is in order. None of us know the answer, nor do we know what *isn’t* the answer, nor do we even know for sure the right way to interpret the data.
The best we can do it to work together. Evaluate the data and think of different ways of interpreting it. Speculate on what even *IS* data. Build consensus on what we think the process should be. Why? Because *we* decided it was the best way to do it.
Also, I think its important to focus more on the process than the result. We don’t know if any given answer is right or wrong. For example, I support the Glabrezu, but I don’t KNOW its correct and I CAN’T know if its right. So, fighting to get it on the FBS list should be like... finding an interesting answer to a legendarily difficult math problem. Its not being celebrated because its *right*, because we have no idea. Its celebrated because its INTERESTING and, looked at the right way, a good fit for the clues we have.
If our interpretation of the clues change, then our FBS list has to change. The Glabrezu is a good fit now, but if we decide MitD needs a 40+ STR then it’ll be gone in a heartbeat. We should be focused on the process of evaluating the clues, The clues should be driving it.
The FBS candidates are the monsters who we realize fit the clues the best. Changing our interpretation of the clues in advocacy of a candidate is very dicey. If its a perceptual shift (“Oh, wait, maybe Rich meant X when he said that, rather than Y”), then it can be ok as long as the consensus agrees on it. Some of our best ideas have come that way. On the other hand, not all ideas are good ones. If the consensus doesn’t agree with a change in interpretation then it should be a sign that maybe you’re heading in the wrong direction and should re-think. And flat our trying to change requirements to get a candidate accepted is anathema to our intellectual work, because its putting the unverifiable cart before the horse, so to speak.Last edited by Crusher; 2019-03-17 at 08:50 PM.
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2019-03-17, 08:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-03-17, 08:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-03-17, 08:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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2019-03-17, 08:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
You're quoting Rich wrong. His words is that "[the] actual answer to the mystery" will "satisfy".
It's entirely different - it's not the reveal that he's confident will be satisfying (an easy bar to meet), it's the answer that he's confident will be satisfying (a hard bar to meet).Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
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2019-03-17, 09:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
In the context of the reveal being satisfying, it's assumed that most of the people guessing are familiar with d&d3.5e yes?
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2019-03-17, 09:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Last edited by lio45; 2019-03-17 at 09:06 PM.
Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
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2019-03-17, 09:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-03-17, 09:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
That's as likely as them saying "you're a colossal snake, you'll be fine" if it was a different monster. Not something they would ever say, because it's a story and no matter what they're not gonna reveal it.
Sounds like he couldn't Handel his alcohol. I'll bet he turned a bright Scarlatti when he heard that!Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-03-17, 09:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-03-17, 09:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-03-17, 10:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Wow, you guys are making so many jokes about composers. Maybe someone could write a Lizst?
"You are what you do. Choose again and change." - Miles Vorkosigan
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2019-03-17, 10:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Oregon, USA
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
This particular case is almost overly precise, especially given creatures that have both like formian queens. A formian queen has spells as a 17th-level sorcerer; she could know any set of spells known that any other 17th-level sorcerer could have, not just the typical list known...which I assume is why the word "typical" is in there. (The sample list appears to have been new in 3.5; the 3.0 SRD has no such list). A formian queen has calm emotions, charm monster, clairaudience/clairvoyance, detect chaos, detect thoughts, dictum, divination, hold monster, magic circle against chaos, order’s wrath, shield of law, and true seeing as spell-like abilities; every formian queen has those.
Usually spell-like abilities represent innate magic to reinforce the flavor of a creature (you may notice the "YOU CANNOT HIDE FROM THE LAW" theme with most of the formian queen's), using spells as a model for implementing the details; whereas spells model creatures who have innate knowledge of actual spellcasting (the kind of thing other creatures need class levels for). Having that many spell-like abilities brings in the same general complexity problem as spellcasting; between the two there are over fifty spell effects a formian queen could choose from each round...but I imagine my views on monster design are even farther off topic <<;
And just to be clear: a formian queen has no Strength or Dexterity score; being physically incapable of exerting force or moving would complicate a great deal of strips the MitD has appeared in.FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2019-03-17, 10:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
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2019-03-17, 10:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Ok, one more music joke then I promise I won't make any more:
Middle C, E flat and G walk into a bar.
"Sorry," said the bartenders. "We don't serve minors.""You are what you do. Choose again and change." - Miles Vorkosigan
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2019-03-17, 11:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
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2019-03-18, 02:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
I have no idea. I am actually not at all familiar with it outside of the context of this web comic and any research I've done to that end.
Yes, count me on the side of "Any argument that can essentially be described as 'If it was X, someone would have explicitly said something about it being X by now' is not valid."
OK, just to confirm the exact language:
Originally Posted by Rich Burlew, in War and XPs (PDF, R4-B) - After the War: Looking Back from 2016
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2019-03-18, 02:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
It seems like if it were from something else, eg pokemon, it would be disappointing because it would assume the reader is familiar with something not a part of the setting.
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2019-03-18, 03:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Tarquin may disagree with that reasoning. Any necessary conversation that might reveal too much information about the MitD's nature probably happens off-panel.
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2019-03-18, 09:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2018
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"
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2019-03-18, 11:10 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Nah, the only time I can be bothered writing one is when it's my Chopin Liszt - I hate forgetting stuff when I do the weekly groceries.
BTW, can't take credit for that one - my sis, a semi-professional (classical) musician, received one of those from another musician friend many years ago and we all found it clever:
https://www.amazon.com/JSI-Chopin-Li.../dp/B000ZU2IQYOffer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
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2019-03-18, 12:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
That wouldn't actually fit the protean anyway. The protean isn't a single creature, and then another single creature, and then another single creature--it's a boiling mass of features from many different creatures. The closest Xykon or Redcloak could get to that, even theoretically, would be something like "assume a feature that gives you confidence (assuming there is one...) and then spend a move action every round to keep it, such that you can't actually move and attack in the same round."
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2019-03-18, 01:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark
Not really; if everyone agrees that Rich is skilled enough to find story-fitting ways to make the reveal of absolutely anything interesting and satisfying (due to "awesome MitD character growth", etc.), it ceases to be a criterion. It wouldn't even disqualify therblewurkersaurus.
Originally Posted by QuebbsterOffer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.