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2019-07-10, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-07-10, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
At that point you're wearing armour.
And for a dagger/short-sword axe thing, there's machetes and other curved blades. Importantly you'd want a point heavy blade. Which is why machete's work. So you could potentially describe people as using dark-age or earlier swords. Which were much blade heavier than the later medieval blades you probably think of when somebody say sword.My extended signature.
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2019-07-11, 08:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-07-11, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
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2019-07-11, 11:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
Hey, all, I've got a weapon idea in one of my stories that I wanted to shoot past you guys to check for verisimilitude- I've been incorporating stuff I've learned from Skallagrim and Shadiversity, but obviously it's not super likely they'd get back to me on how well I'd done so.
So the weapon in question is a longsword of the sort one would normally consider impractically large- not in Buster Sword territory, but maybe four to five feet long with another foot for the hilt, and with a rather hefty blade as well- maybe six inches wide or so, and an inch or two thick (estimates are to be taken with a grain of salt, I haven't really sat down to proportion it out accurately). So again, not as insane as some anime/video game swords, but much larger than normally considered practical. That's where I've been putting in so much thought- how to make it work as something you could imagine being used.
So the two big things that contribute in-story to this design are the material of the blade and the character the sword is made for. The sword is made later on, after the character loses their more conventional longsword and the material used in the sword is obtained.
The character is basically a Warforged stripped of game mechanics and setting details- an elite golem warrior that mysteriously obtained self-awareness in a process which has started to lead to poorly understood mystical abilities. Practically, this means that he is much stronger than a normal person, but also a good deal heavier, something repeatedly noted as something that would help with oversized weapons, but also part of the original enchantments included into his design are 'sticking' effects in his hands, feet, and back that increase his traction, grip strength, and act as a convenient place to store his weapons while marching. This means that he is even better equipped to weild a heavier weapon, as he has magic keeping him from loosing balance or grip while swinging the darn thing around.
The material of the weapon is a mysterious alloy originally made by the Mysterious Ancient CivilizationTM, this variety being known well for their supernatural metallurgy. The metal is essentially Adamantine- supposedly indestructible, but this has quite notably been shown to have limits. How? By this character's afore-mentioned developing powers. So while the metal is extremely durable and extremely strong, the weapon is being made for the one person known to be able to break it, so they don't want to go the route Shad discusses in his latest video about magical materials- they want to prioritize durability. Thus, in addition to making it big enough for a golem to use, they make it bulky enough to make sure it'll survive that use. For balance's sake, this also justifies some ornamentation on the hilt, in order to make the center of gravity more similar to a normal sword.
Now, the other problem with big weapons is the cutting ability, again something that would normally encourage thinner blades in both dimensions. My thought process here, which is the one I'm not as confident of, is that the unconventional design weighs in to the somewhat different use of a larger sword over a smaller one. I heard it said once that longswords and Zweihanders and such could almost be considered a kind of polearm, and that really got my mind going- in practice, essentially, this sword works more like a really big axe. It has the much larger blade length of a sword, but the weight and heft of it mean that it focuses more on chopping than slicing- if it can't cut as well, it will transfer its kinetic energy very well. This is still a trade-off, but people did make battleaxes in real life, right? With the unique properties of its wielder's grip, the wide blade also works as a good hand-hold for half-swording in a pinch. In regular combat, though, the typical sweeping, circular style I recall being recommended for big swords would be devastating with that much momentum behind it, and the alternate combination of traits would make it very good for fighting giant monsters as well.
Most debatably, one might consider that the wideness of the blade could allow it to be used as an impromptu buckler of sorts, as it is still very durable and the increased surface area would at the least make blocking in melee a bit easier.
So, how well have I figured things out here? Am I way off base, or have I made something that you could believe a sane blacksmith would make for this kind of character? Did I not include sufficient Machicolations?It's a falcon. Wearing a Fedora. Your argument is irrelevant.
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2019-07-12, 02:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
Single edged or double edged blade?
If it's single edged, it's not too far off a Chinese two handed dao, although a lot thicker. I presume that 1 inch measurement is the centre of the blade and it tapers to an edge?
I would also take advantage of sword making techniques to reduce the weight of your weapon - fullers for example make the weapon lighter for no real reduction in blade integrity.
Unless your character is much bigger than a human or has oversized hands, your blade is too thick for effective halfswording as you can't wrap your hand around the blade to get a good grip.
For examples of how such a large weapon could be used, see this Miao Dao variant although probably ~2" off in blade width and on the shorter end of your scale.
Moving back to European traditions, there's a number of longsword techniques which can be scaled appropriately for your weapon; for example there's this Adorea longsword duel
The main purpose of such fighting styles is use of the weapon's reach to fend off multiple attackers or being able to stop cavalry - the latter would probably be useful for giant monsters.
Edit: Man at Arms made replicas of Cloud's Buster Sword (although at 12" wide, the blade is twice as wide as your one) and Gut's sword from Berserk (which seems to have your exact required dimensions).
This is a trade-off between coverage (the wider the blade, the more you have to hide behind) and manoeuverability (the weapon needs to be fast enough to move into position). At the moment, you're way over into the coverage side of the scale, so it's easy to hide behind but you can't move your blade quickly, unless you're so ridiculously strong to compensate for the blade's inertia, in which case you're better off using a club or throwing stones. You can use magic to compensate but you're going to have to handwave it a bit, since trying to flesh it out leads to madness (e.g. Mass Effect style of mass manipulation would make the weapon easy to handle, but would reduce its cutting power as you won't have the same momentum).Last edited by Brother Oni; 2019-07-12 at 04:17 AM. Reason: Added additional points as I had more time
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2019-07-12, 09:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
The issue I see is that this thing is going to be all about the inertia.
With that much mass, stopping it will be very difficult. So that's good for offense, as it will be hard to block, hard to make armor good enough to stop it, it will be able to shear through the flesh of huge creatures, etc.
The problem is also that it will be hard to stop. If you swing and miss, it will take all day to stop that much mass with that much momentum to make another cut or to block. This will be terrible at defending against anything even a little quick, because once you start it moving to parry, changing direction if that was just a feint is going to be very very hard. Great strength will help, but only so much. A semi has a bigger engine than a sports car, but it still takes a while to get that mass moving. Or to stop it moving.
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2019-07-12, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
There are reasons most swords actually used in combat were within a certain weight and size range, going all the way back to the oldest bronze swords.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
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2019-07-12, 11:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
To our rapier question, quite randomly today I happened upon an answer. I was visiting the Swedish Army Museum and happened upon what looked like a stiff, narrow, hand and a half sword meant for thrusting. The blade was quite long and had a narrow taper, but was less wide than most of their one handed swords on display.
They had it labeled as a “Varja”, which they translated to English as “Rapier” and dated in the mid 1500s.
I suspect there may have been an alternate naming convention in some parts of Europe that did not use “Rapier” to envision a flexible one handed fencing piece that we think of today, but instead these larger and much stiffer thrusting swords. Which incidentally, probably would have been better for a battlefield. Hence “war Rapier”
I would post photos, but for some reason my phone won’t let me copy them here.
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2019-07-12, 05:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
I have checked. The rapier is "rapir" in swedish. "Värja" means "smallsword..." which is weird, because the weapon you are describing sounds like a medieval estoc and not at all like a smallsword...
The swedish sword for estoc is "pansarstickare" (I think it comes from german "panzerstecher...").
But it's true that in many languages edgeless rapiers are sometimes called "estocs". In Spain thrusting swords without an edge are often called "estoques", and in England both rapiers and estocs were sometimes called "tucks".Last edited by Clistenes; 2019-07-12 at 09:07 PM.
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2019-07-13, 03:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
It's double-edged, but it does have a large fuller. And yes, of course the full thickness is at the center, don't worry it is actually sharp.
I do admit, the thickness of the blade is probably an artifact from before I started learning about sword design that I could shave off- make it more conventionall in
Unless your character is much bigger than a human or has oversized hands, your blade is too thick for effective halfswording as you can't wrap your hand around the blade to get a good grip.
For examples of how such a large weapon could be used, see this Miao Dao variant although probably ~2" off in blade width and on the shorter end of your scale.
Moving back to European traditions, there's a number of longsword techniques which can be scaled appropriately for your weapon; for example there's this Adorea longsword duel
The main purpose of such fighting styles is use of the weapon's reach to fend off multiple attackers or being able to stop cavalry - the latter would probably be useful for giant monsters.
Edit: Man at Arms made replicas of Cloud's Buster Sword (although at 12" wide, the blade is twice as wide as your one) and Gut's sword from Berserk (which seems to have your exact required dimensions).
This is a trade-off between coverage (the wider the blade, the more you have to hide behind) and manoeuverability (the weapon needs to be fast enough to move into position). At the moment, you're way over into the coverage side of the scale, so it's easy to hide behind but you can't move your blade quickly, unless you're so ridiculously strong to compensate for the blade's inertia, in which case you're better off using a club or throwing stones. You can use magic to compensate but you're going to have to handwave it a bit, since trying to flesh it out leads to madness (e.g. Mass Effect style of mass manipulation would make the weapon easy to handle, but would reduce its cutting power as you won't have the same momentum).
Okay, thanks. I had figured it would be like that. I will definitely incorporate that into the character's style, it's been mentioned in the videos I mentioned as well. Great info.It's a falcon. Wearing a Fedora. Your argument is irrelevant.
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2019-07-13, 04:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
So, I am far from an expert when it comes to swords or sword naming. I’ll just post these here and let the more knowledgeable heads work on it:
https://ibb.co/rFqq3TK
https://ibb.co/94X0j8r
https://ibb.co/HN0sDYn
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2019-07-13, 07:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-07-14, 09:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-07-14, 02:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
Originally Posted by KKL
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2019-07-14, 06:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
The design of the handle looks more like a hand-and-a-half sword... I think this is the same kind of weapon as this one...
The one in the Swedish museum looks like it would be easier to use one-handed, though, given the smaller crossbar...
This one and this one, both original pieces, may be even closer...
These estoc models look even more rapier-like...Last edited by Clistenes; 2019-07-14 at 06:21 PM.
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2019-07-14, 06:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
I need ideas for weapons and armor for a particular civilization, the People of the Waters.
Constraints:
* No good sources of iron[1], but plentiful ingredients for bronze.
* Jungle terrain. Similar to the Yucatan, without the limestone shelf (just normal, flat-ish jungle).
* Very hyper-organized society. Efficiency is their prime ideal. I'm thinking they do the Roman (post-reforms) model of building roads and forts and using standardized gear.
* Lots of slaves (taken from neighboring cultures).
* Very expansionist.
* Local opposition is similar to pre-columbian aztec/mayan indians, except not organized at all beyond the tribal level.
* Magic exists, but it's not super common here, at least at the military level.
I'm thinking stiffened, reinforced leather and cloth armor, wooden shields, and bronze spears and swords, with various missile weapons (javelins, bows, etc). Does that sound reasonable?
[1] the ancient[2] iron and coal mines are located in the hills, which are the current habitat of very nasty things that are pretty content to stay there, as long as they're not disturbed. The People of the Waters aren't stupid--they don't disturb them when they can avoid it.
[2] there was a major, civilized, high-medieval-tech (plus magic) nation here about 200 years ago, but that died catastrophically[3]. Not much remains, and the jungle has eaten most of the ruins.
[3] being the beach-head for an invasion of demons, plus the end of all magic for 50 years, plus massive natural disasters including earthquakes, floods, hurricanes lasting months, etc., all about the same time will do that.Last edited by PhoenixPhyre; 2019-07-14 at 06:58 PM.
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2019-07-15, 03:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
It sounds like the easiest way is to just ctrl-c ctrl-v the Incas. The basic difference between the tech and society you’ve mentioned is that the Incas developed from highland Andean plateaus, but they expanded well into the Amazonia. For The neighboring tribes ctrl-c ctrl-v the Aztec’s neighbors like the
Tlaxcalans.
The Incas were more into incorporating conquered people into the Empire, inspired by the wanting their neighbors to follow the sun god, but it isn’t that big of a twist to make them slavers. Since their society was formed along socialist lines with jobs and land allocated by government fiat you can argue that everyone was slaves.
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2019-07-15, 04:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
Any sword that would feels like you fence with it would be called "värja" in common Swedish. The definition is, literally, "blade you fence with". A "rapir" doesn't exist in Swedish (the dictionary doesn't know it), outside historical books or, I guess, specialized fencing lingo.
As opposed to a blade that would clearly be a sword.
Also, ofc, museum personnel aren't weapon experts necessarily and people who made blades and used them for real didn't generally engage in descriptive nomenclature.
Looking at the size of it, it's a quite small moose so no worries. Now had they taken the jaw of a 12, or god-forbid, an 18 pointer I'd be looking over my shoulder.Last edited by snowblizz; 2019-07-15 at 04:04 AM.
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2019-07-15, 08:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
If they have bronze weapons they will probably have at least bronze helmets too...
Bronze scale armor was easy to do, and was created quite early in history... they could rivet or stitch rows of bronze scales over the leather and cloth armor...
Bronze breastplates, greaves and maybe manicas and/or spaulders wouldn't be too difficult to craft, either...
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2019-07-15, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
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2019-07-15, 08:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2019-07-15, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
Last edited by Kiero; 2019-07-15 at 10:10 AM.
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2019-07-15, 09:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
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NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
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2019-07-15, 10:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
Well-worked bronze is the equal of the lower grades of steel that any non-modern civilisation is capable of producing. The only meaningful difference is that the same volume of bronze is about 10% heavier than the equivalent of iron.
It does take skill to make longer blades (see the Chinese, who were masters with bronze), otherwise you're limited to shortswords and spear/axe heads. As mentioned, larger plates are also pretty easy to make if you can already work bronze, so cuirasses, greaves and so on would be common. This isn't a metal-poor culture when it comes to equipment.Wushu Open Reloaded
Actual Play: The Shadow of the Sun (Acrozatarim's WFRP campaign) as Pawel Hals and Mass: the Effecting - Transcendence as Russell Ortiz.
Now running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia 300BC.
In Sanity We Trust Productions - our podcasting site where you can hear our dulcet tones, updated almost every week.
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2019-07-15, 10:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
A good minimum loadout for militia/draftees and so on is an open faced helm, a shield (bronze or leather over wood) and a spear. Maximum defense for minimum expense and favoured by various armies of the past. Also lightweight and non restricting to wear or carry on long marches. Cloth armour would be hellish to wear in a jungle due to the humidity and heat, so I'd expect them to be mostly unarmoured other than the shield and helm.
Bows over javelins I think, dense jungle terrain favours more compact weapons and javelins can be quite unwieldy, plus there's no shortage of wood for making bows and arrows. The Incans used slings, but that was largely due to a lack of wood in their homeland, and a lot of South American tribes used blowguns, but those are only practical for hunting because of how big they are.
Jungles are also pretty bad for formation fighting so I'd expect to see a focus on skirmish and swarm tactics. It's not practical to cut down every tree in your way so you need to fight between them and focus on surprise or surrounding your enemies or just overwhelming them with numbers.
I'm going to advise against the scale armour proposed by others, I think it would be too hot and heavy for jungle terrain. A more encompassing helm, maybe a scale or chain covering around the neck and shoulders, but otherwise I'd keep the heavy soldiers in some sort of light tunic to keep them from overheating.Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2019-07-15, 10:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
One complicating factor (read: plot hook) with bronze is that the need for both copper- and tin-mining operations makes it more difficult to secure the resources needed to manufacture it.
Originally Posted by KKL
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2019-07-15, 10:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
This was certainly a concern in the real world, where copper and tin occurred in different places, and tin became rare as the old sources were tapped out. By contrast, iron ore often occurs very close to either coal or trees from which you make charcoal/coke.
Whether or not that's a concern is up to the setting creator.
One additional point to follow what Grim Portent said, for personal weapons, I think knives and/or short choppers would be common. The latter for clearing brush and cutting through the jungle. In the real world, non-tropical forests seem to make an axe the favoured tool, but in tropical ones it's the machete.Wushu Open Reloaded
Actual Play: The Shadow of the Sun (Acrozatarim's WFRP campaign) as Pawel Hals and Mass: the Effecting - Transcendence as Russell Ortiz.
Now running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia 300BC.
In Sanity We Trust Productions - our podcasting site where you can hear our dulcet tones, updated almost every week.
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2019-07-15, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
That's what you expect, but the Aztecs went heavily into ichcahuipilli, which was a quilted cotton armour and could be regarded as the equivalent of a gambeson in terms of protective quality.
If anything, they would be less likely to wear bronze armour due to the outermost non-breathing metal layer preventing heat loss to the environment (some conquistadors were reported as preferring to use the Aztec's armour rather than their own cuirass as the loss in protection was well worth the additional comfort).
Spoiler: Aztec armour in the Codex Mendoza, 16th Century
I'd also say that it depends heavily on acclimatization - if you're used to living in a jungle environment, then wearing protective clothing wouldn't be as restrictive.
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2019-07-15, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armour or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVIII
Yeah, that was what I was thinking of. I remember seeing those illustrations (or similar ones) and since these guys are (in naming[1] and vague architecture[2] only) modeled on a mishmash of the Central American (plus a little Inca) civilizations, I figured it fit.
[1] The civilization is named Tlalocana, a play on the Aztec god of water, Tlaaloc. They're the People of the Water, originally the Water Serpent People, now because they (unknowingly) serve an Aboleth, via some mind-flayers, which for me are water-associated.
[2] step pyramids and jungles, mainlyDawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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