MitD XIII: Learning is happening

[hamishspence]

Demogorgon is presented in Fiendish Codex I, superseding the original presentation in the 3.0 Book of Vile Darkness.

FC2, at least, suggests the BoVD versions of Archfiends are "the real thing" and that the FC1 and the FC2 versions themselves are "very powerful aspects, but still aspects". Only a bit of work is required to convert BoVD fiends to 3.5.


Dragon Magazine also has stats for a number of demon lords, including Demogorgon, which used BoVD as a starting point. Their versions of them tend to be a little more powerful than BoVD versions.

[Jasdoif]

FC2, at least, suggests the BoVD versions of Archfiends are "the real thing" and that the FC1 and the FC2 versions themselves are "very powerful aspects, but still aspects". Only a bit of work is required to convert BoVD fiends to 3.5.

FC1 explicitly says "Some of the demon lords described in this chapter originally appeared in Book of Vile Darkness. They have been updated to conform with the revised (v3.5) D&D rules." (There's also a little section in the chapter for increasing their stats to an arbitrary level for use in an epic-level campaign, but I think that's the book punting on whether there's an "actual" power level they have)

[hamishspence]

It also says they are less powerful than their previous incarnations, having been redesigned to make them"end level bosses for non-epic campaigns" and provides additional rules for upgrading them to make them more suitable for epic campaigns again.

In the context of Dragon Magazine's Demonomicon rules, and of FC2's explicitly stating that their archfiends are aspects only, I think it's safe to say that FC1 archfiends should be thought of as powerful aspects normally - they're only "the real thing" in games that are capped at 20th level.

[Jasdoif]

It also says they are less powerful than their previous incarnations, having been redesigned to make them"end level bosses for non-epic campaigns" and provides additional rules for upgrading them to make them more suitable for epic campaigns again.

In the context of Dragon Magazine's Demonomicon rules, and of FC2's explicitly stating that their archfiends are aspects only, I think it's safe to say that FC1 archfiends should be thought of as powerful aspects normally - they're only "the real thing" in games that are capped at 20th level.

Right. None of which supports using the 3.0 version over the 3.5 version, especially if the 3.0->3.5 conversion is compulsory in the setting....Which cuts down the number of sources Grey_Wolf_c might need to look at, which is the reason I mentioned the supersession in the first place.

[hamishspence]

Right. None of which supports using the 3.0 version over the 3.5 version, especially if the 3.0->3.5 conversion is compulsory in the setting....

The "spawn of" bit would throw everything out of whack though. Demogorgon's children generally have different stats from him. At least the few that have appeared in Dungeon or Dragon.

Main reason I'd favour BoVD over FC2? It's actually appeared in-strip (the Eye of Fear and Flame came from BOVD and Redcloak had it to hand when explaining how he created the three undead decoys.) FC2 was published much later, well after strip 100, so is less likely to be where The Giant got ideas from.

[Squire Doodad]

Main reason I'd favour BoVD over FC2? It's actually appeared in-strip (the Eye of Fear and Flame came from BOVD and Redcloak had it to hand when explaining how he created the three undead decoys.) FC2 was published much later, well after strip 100, so is less likely to be where The Giant got ideas from.

Good point, it's probably BoVD instead of FC2 if either were the case.

I want to point that the deadline is "about" strip 100 instead of precisely at it, so while it doesn't cover much it does mean that things that were released within a few weeks might be fine, making the Athasian Nightmare Beast a bit more plausible than it is already. Of course, that doesn't completely resolve any issues - it just makes things that are on the fence time wise sliiiightly more compatible.

[Joerg]

Oh no, the vote happened while I was away on vacation and now I have to wait a few months again to suggest not listing 'huge' size as a con anymore...

[Squire Doodad]

Oh no, the vote happened while I was away on vacation and now I have to wait a few months again to suggest not listing 'huge' size as a con anymore...

The Magic 8 Ball and the fortune cookies both suggest that MitD will still be unknown by December.

[Schroeswald]

The Magic 8 Ball and the fortune cookies both suggest that MitD will still be unknown by December.

What! No way, I was sure it would be revealed next comic.

[Squire Doodad]

What! No way, I was sure it would be revealed next comic.

If you are really, really uncertain, we could ask the 18th level Incarnum user, but our current sources are more reliable.

[Schroeswald]

If you are really, really uncertain, we could ask the 18th level Incarnum user, but our current sources are more reliable.

Have we used psionics yet? Are they in this setting?

[Squire Doodad]

Have we used psionics yet? Are they in this setting?

Well...um...yes. We've used pisonics. We've also had instances of psionics being analyzed. GW could do a better explanation than me though.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well...um...yes. We've used pisonics. We've also had instances of psionics being analyzed. GW could do a better explanation than me though.

I took the question for a joke, since it is referencing and answered in the strip they are quoting.

Grey Wolf

[Schroeswald]

Well...um...yes. We've used pisonics. We've also had instances of psionics being analyzed. GW could do a better explanation than me though.

Of course we have, lets use the 18th level Incarnum just in case, might not be as accurate but it could give us hope to get through the gap between Books 6 and 7.

[BasiliskSoldier]

My money's on the Athasian Nightmare Beast.

On that subject, do we think it's possible that the Giant decided MiTD was a Nightmare Beast prior to the Athasian version's publication, and once it came out he switched and used that version instead because it fit what he wanted the monster to do better?

It doesn't contradict the wording of his statement. If hypothetically, he had decided that the MiTD was an awakened Gorgonopsid, initially chosen Gorgonops because it was the only variety of the creature in an official DnD sourcebook, but a few months after the decision was made WOTC put out Bakker's Guide to Dinosaurs, Placoderms and Proto-Mammals which included an Inostrancevia, that has access to Trenchant Political Analysis, and since that fit much better with the climatic moment of Book 7 where MiTD convinces Redcloak to abandon the plan with a thrilling 83 page speech about fishery subsidies and federal import tax than Gorgonops' Rudimentary Political Analysis ability he switched which variety of Gorgonopsid MITD was, you could argue that's still "figuring out what the monster was", even if the specific variety, statblock and all the fiddly little details used weren't determined until later

That said I think it does go against the spirit of the statement, and I don't know if that sort of "well, technically..." sort of rules lawyering fits the Giant's modus operandi for these things.

[CriticalFailure]

I wonder if MiTD could end up getting some class levels out of all that Kraagor's Tomb raiding he's been doing with Team Evil. If Xykon is getting XP maybe he is too. Maybe he'll take a level in Paladin to be like Mr. Stiffly.

[Squire Doodad]

I wonder if MiTD could end up getting some class levels out of all that Kraagor's Tomb raiding he's been doing with Team Evil. If Xykon is getting XP maybe he is too. Maybe he'll take a level in Paladin to be like Mr. Stiffly.

MitD is going to get a level in Shadowdancer (whatever Roy's assassin was) of course, because he's the only source of narratively-occurring shadow in the comic.

[Schroeswald]

MitD is going to get a level in Shadowdancer (whatever Roy's assassin was) of course, because he's the only source of narratively-occurring shadow in the comic.

The real question is how Shadowdancer assassin escaped from the MiTD, he jumped into a shadow, and the only known shadow was around MiTD at the time, and survives to run away from assassinating the King of Nowhere again. The MiTD would be useless as a Shadowdancer because the shadow would have to already be someplace else (but not the democracy, he can travel to kingdoms too) for him to travel into it.

[Squire Doodad]

The real question is how Shadowdancer assassin escaped from the MiTD, he jumped into a shadow, and the only known shadow was around MiTD at the time, and survives to run away from assassinating the King of Nowhere again. The MiTD would be useless as a Shadowdancer because the shadow would have to already be someplace else (but not the democracy, he can travel to kingdoms too) for him to travel into it.

So...the Shadowdancer should work with MitD to be an emergency escape route. However, MitD himself cannot be a Shadowdancer without evading with extreme precision (jump from one edge of the shadow to the other).

[Schroeswald]

So...the Shadowdancer should work with MitD to be an emergency escape route. However, MitD himself cannot be a Shadowdancer without evading with extreme precision (jump from one edge of the shadow to the other).

If you wanted to travel to the MiTD it'd be really effective too, presuming you were at maximum 160 ft away from him.

[Wizard_Lizard]

any bets on mitd being an unknowable creature from the far realms of whom no man may what of?
Sone form of shoggoth or other lovecraftianesque creature?

[Fyraltari]

any bets on mitd being an unknowable creature from the far realms of whom no man may what of?
Sone form of shoggoth or other lovecraftianesque creature?

Start of Darkness shows that (some) professional monster hunters can recognize his species with a simple look. So did Oona even, so no.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

any bets on mitd being an unknowable creature from the far realms of whom no man may what of?
Sone form of shoggoth or other lovecraftianesque creature?

As per the listings in the first post, several have been suggested (Hunting Horror, Starspawn) & bet on (Hunting Horror). Depending on how you feel about the Neh-Thalggu and maybe even the Protean as closest D&D equivalents, they might count as well.

Grey Wolf

[Squire Doodad]

any bets on mitd being an unknowable creature from the far realms of whom no man may what of?
Sone form of shoggoth or other lovecraftianesque creature?

Implausible based on the hunter's comments.
There have been suggestions, but most of them don't quite hold up.

Also, Lovecraftian is a word. Thanks Scribblenauts!

[CriticalFailure]

They could be particularly well read hunters.

Maybe it’s a giant space squid. What science fiction is truly about.

[Squire Doodad]

They could be particularly well read hunters.

Maybe it’s a giant space squid. What science fiction is truly about.

There's a certain level where "particularly well read" is a feature that denotes a specific character instead of an instance of a stock character.

[Wizard_Lizard]

They could be particularly well read hunters.

Maybe it’s a giant space squid. What science fiction is truly about.

Oona may be defying racial stereotype of bugbears, and has a bachelors degree in eldritch abominations!

#notallbugbearsarestupid

[Squire Doodad]

Oona may be defying racial stereotype of bugbears, and has a bachelors degree in eldritch abominations!

#notallbugbearsarestupid

While that would be delightful, it also gets into the murky circumstances of "can we assume this without violating the guessing game?". It does, however, suggest that MitD is somewhat exotic but not to the point that his kind wouldn't be present in the Monster Hollow.

[Wizard_Lizard]

While that would be delightful, it also gets into the murky circumstances of "can we assume this without violating the guessing game?". It does, however, suggest that MitD is somewhat exotic but not to the point that his kind wouldn't be present in the Monster Hollow.

I guess... But what if mitd is a monster with class levels?
and knows spells like teleport....

[D.One]

MitD is going to get a level in Shadowdancer (whatever Roy's assassin was) of course, because he's the only source of narratively-occurring shadow in the comic.

But how can we know if MitD is dancing inside all those shadows?