Berserk - Lets start this journey!

[Callos_DeTerran]

So I've been hankering for a different sort of story lately, I'm sort of worn out on all the shounen, isekai, ecchi, and so on that I normally consume when it comes to anime and manga. It made me want something a bit more visceral and gritty, but not a full on horror series either. I was a big fan of Gantz for a long time and before that Fist of the North Star, so that's what I wanted to read, something a bit...well...violent.

Something, I forget what, reminded me that Berserk not only exists but its a series that I've never fully read but it has influenced a lot of other series that I've enjoyed. So, partially to wash the taste of bad translations of Berserk out in the past, I decided that maybe its time to give it another go. I know, broadly, that certain things happen like the Eclipse and Griffith deal but beyond that its largely an unknown to me and I need to scratch my Seinen itch. So far I've read up to the point that Guts is battling some very fleshy Count apostle and Puck is being...well...Puck.

So, any fans of Berserk around?

[Yanagi]

So I've been hankering for a different sort of story lately, I'm sort of worn out on all the shounen, isekai, ecchi, and so on that I normally consume when it comes to anime and manga. It made me want something a bit more visceral and gritty, but not a full on horror series either. I was a big fan of Gantz for a long time and before that Fist of the North Star, so that's what I wanted to read, something a bit...well...violent.

Something, I forget what, reminded me that Berserk not only exists but its a series that I've never fully read but it has influenced a lot of other series that I've enjoyed. So, partially to wash the taste of bad translations of Berserk out in the past, I decided that maybe its time to give it another go. I know, broadly, that certain things happen like the Eclipse and Griffith deal but beyond that its largely an unknown to me and I need to scratch my Seinen itch. So far I've read up to the point that Guts is battling some very fleshy Count apostle and Puck is being...well...Puck.

So, any fans of Berserk around?

[raises hand] Ten year veteran of waiting for more Berserk and slogging through bad translations.

It comes out treacle-slow, but I still read and don't feel like I'm doing so from a place of sunk cost fallacy; It remains engaging.

If you've only gotten to the Count...a ton is going to happen and there's no way to talk about what comes next. You're in the first arc...Black Swordsman...which is interrupted by the second arc...the flashback to the Band of the Hawk that ends with the Eclipse...and there's two whole arcs after that and the ongoing one.

The art goes from pretty good to amazing.

If you're comfortable with Gantz you'll probably be okay with Berserk's depiction of violence, which is very horror even when the story hits conventional fantasy notes.


Puck remains Puck because he's the author's way of breaking up the grimdark.

[Lurkmoar]

*hand goes up*

I remember watching the first Berserk animated series on VHS back in... 2001-2002 I think.

After that I burned through all the manga. I still keep up with it, but now I'm at the point where I can check out for six months or so and see what's happened. I'm hopeful that my future granchildren will enjoy the ending.

[LaZodiac]

Love Berserk, very good and fantastic.

Puck stops being uncomfortable the instant they realize they don't have to draw him in his photorealistic ass stick thing naked body form and can just draw him like a regular pixie or an adorable chestnut goblin. I love him.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Alright, so update on my progress. Fairly certain that I've gotten to the start of the Golden Age arc, seeing how I've stopped on the image of a baby (presumably Guts) underneath of a hanged woman.

Puck isn't so bad, it's pretty obvious that he's there to lighten the mood in a very dark setting, which helps me put up with his antics but his possibly(?) dim-witted optimism is also an endearing trait.

The Count was an interesting look at what it takes to make an Apostle and, assuming the Godhand spoke the truth which...pretty sure that's their schtick, you can see why he made the choice..understand it, but not condone it. Plus there was an ember of decency buried deep down in there because you'd expect a man who made the sacrifice once and has only been increasingly brutal since to not even flinch at making it again to not just save his life but to avoid damnation that's literally creeping towards him. Innocence be damned, it's just not something you expect a man-turned-demon to flinch at but he did. Also, what happens when an Apostle sacrifices more than once? That...isn't normally something you expect to be possible in a 'Deal with the Devil' type scenario.

Speaking of, the Godhand are pretty fascinating. Both in concept and design though the fact the two little ones (Conrad and..Ubik?) look so similar considering all the others are so different. Special props for Void. Femto too, for his helmet and wings, the rest is pretty bland.

Also, man these rough translations are...well...rough, and definitely take the sting out of emotional moments like the Count's daughter debates suicide or vowing vengeance against Guts for what he did to her gilded cage. Or Guts' tears after attempting to steal her heart.

Does Theresia ever come back at any point? That's an interesting plot thread I hope gets followed up on. Also Behelits are insanely creepy and I kind of love them, how they work, and and what I've seen of the Godhand's deal so far. Probably some of my favorite arch-demons I've seen in anime so far.

[Olinser]

Aren't they still on the boat?

[Olinser]

[raises hand] Ten year veteran of waiting for more Berserk and slogging through bad translations.

It comes out treacle-slow, but I still read and don't feel like I'm doing so from a place of sunk cost fallacy; It remains engaging.

If you've only gotten to the Count...a ton is going to happen and there's no way to talk about what comes next. You're in the first arc...Black Swordsman...which is interrupted by the second arc...the flashback to the Band of the Hawk that ends with the Eclipse...and there's two whole arcs after that and the ongoing one.

The art goes from pretty good to amazing.

If you're comfortable with Gantz you'll probably be okay with Berserk's depiction of violence, which is very horror even when the story hits conventional fantasy notes.


Puck remains Puck because he's the author's way of breaking up the grimdark.

It's funny you say that about Puck.

Spoiler: Speculation Spoilers

Show

Because there are multiple points at which it's been all but shouted that the behelit that keeps appearing through the post-Sacrifice story actually belongs to Puck, up to and including him referring to it as 'his'.

Which means Mr Comic Relief will, at some point, go completely off the deep end and become an Apostle. Which is pretty expected from Berserk, tbh.

[-D-]

It's funny you say that about Puck.

Spoiler: Speculation Spoilers

Show

Because there are multiple points at which it's been all but shouted that the behelit that keeps appearing through the post-Sacrifice story actually belongs to Puck, up to and including him referring to it as 'his'.

Which means Mr Comic Relief will, at some point, go completely off the deep end and become an Apostle. Which is pretty expected from Berserk, tbh.

Spoiler: Super Secret Speculation Spoilers

Show

I disagree. The God granting powers to Apostles is a human god, i.e. made of innate human desire for meaning. And so far all Apostles were human.

[Yanagi]

It's funny you say that about Puck.

Spoiler: Speculation Spoilers

Show

Because there are multiple points at which it's been all but shouted that the behelit that keeps appearing through the post-Sacrifice story actually belongs to Puck, up to and including him referring to it as 'his'.

Which means Mr Comic Relief will, at some point, go completely off the deep end and become an Apostle. Which is pretty expected from Berserk, tbh.

Callos DeTerran -- spoilered because of references to later chapters.

Spoiler

Show

I've heard that for years, but don't really see it.

While Berserk is grimdark, there's several clear theses: one,that existence is frequently cruel and heroism is the process of pushing back over and over, even if you only make enough progress to survive another day; two, whether you win matters less than how hard you struggle; three, that connections to other people make that struggle easier and life bearable, while severing connections leads to more darkness and cruelty even if you "win" at selfish goals. Between "Lost Children" and "The Birth Ceremony" these ideas are illustrated, but also pretty much stated outright. It's the lean and hungry seinen version of something present in shounen works.

Apostles are the negative case to each thesis. The bargain of the Behelit is one of hubris, but it always specifically includes a sacrifice that emotionally mutilates the Apostle: to get, they don't just give away themselves, but other people they connect to interdependently. It's darker than a Faustian contract...to get the thing you want, you must destroy who you care for, treat them as means rather than ends. Every deal is about taking the easy way out: avoid death, avoid emotional pain, avoid failure, win regardless of the cost.

When we meet Guts, he's at a crossroads that reflects Berserk's theses. He has a literal fight to survive that he enacts, day after day, but he's become disconnected from people and is trying to further disconnect. He's lost everyone and can't conceive of replacing what he's lost. As the story progresses, we watch him get more wreckless, more heedless of his physical limits: he doesn't want to survive, he wants to beat his opponents.

But Berserk has a long rising action--Guts coming out of his trauma-informed isolation and amoral monster-hunting--and Puck is the central element to that rising action. He's the comic relief to readers, but in the text he keeps insisting that Guts is still a person capable of goodness and deserving of companionship. He's weak and kind of useless, which makes his choices--to stay with Guts at great risk, to contradict Guts even when the latter's angry and violent, to try and do the right thing and help people even if he's crap at it--courageous.

I'd argue that he functions thematically as the opposite of the Behelit...the latter being a thing powered by suffering and disconnection from people...he's also carried around by Guts but heals him (where the Behelit is tied to wounds, blood, and death), keeps him social, and questions his more insane and amoral impulses. And it pays off: we watch Guts soften a bit, become more vulnerable and open. There's a point where it becomes text that Puck has kept Guts alive, and the implication is that it's more than just the healing powers: we've watched Guts make deeply self-destructive decisions over and over with Puck as the stupid-but-kind counterpoint. Through "Lost Children," "The Binding Chain," and "The Birth Ceremony" there's a pay-off that results in the new status quo, the new band.

While Puck using a Behelit, making a sacrifice, and becoming an Apostle would be the ultimate Twist, I don't feel like it fits with the way Miura has presented the character or used the character relative to the themes of the setting.

That said, with there being a new band, and lots of characters that reflect the positive themes surrounding Guts, I'm not sure what the new role for Puck is. He's pretty much full time the fourth-wall breaking comedy at this point. So some kind of dramatic shift for him is certainly possible, and we're finally in a location where he has reference points beyond Guts, so it may be that something's coming. Or maybe he just stays the comedic side.

Does Theresia ever come back at any point?

Not yet.

[Yora]

Bersek has basically been the top item on my to read/watch list for ages. It seems like exactly the kind of stuff I love, but I never got around to it. It seems like something that will take a good deal of time to properly get through.

[Cen]

Aren't they still on the boat?

Actually no, since a year or so they are on Elf's Kings island

[GloatingSwine]

It's funny you say that about Puck.

Spoiler: Speculation Spoilers

Show

Because there are multiple points at which it's been all but shouted that the behelit that keeps appearing through the post-Sacrifice story actually belongs to Puck, up to and including him referring to it as 'his'.

Which means Mr Comic Relief will, at some point, go completely off the deep end and become an Apostle. Which is pretty expected from Berserk, tbh.

Spoiler

Show

He does, but that's just more of Puck being Puck. Treating an incredibly dangerous thing with blithe disregard. The Behelit itself clearly responds to Guts.

Frankly I'm not sure a Behelit would even work for an elf, magical beings in the world of Berserk follow their own rules.

[LaZodiac]

I really want to emphasize that this is not a general discussion thread this is a thread where Callos is reading through it blind. Y'all keep your spoilers in your pants.

Anyway yeah, I do understand finding the other members of the Godhand (outside of Void and Femto) to be bland, but I actually kinda like em. Conrad and Ubik resemble something that I don't quite recall at the moment that makes it clear that they're both heavily inspired by sci fi authors or something along those lines and it's real cool. The succubus lady is basically just a standard horny demon, but executed really well.

Also yeah Behelit's are horrifying I love them.

[GloatingSwine]

Conrad and Ubik resemble something that I don't quite recall at the moment that makes it clear that they're both heavily inspired by sci fi authors or something along those lines and it's real cool.

All of the members of the Godhand are named after sci-fi novels.

Destination: Void (Herbert)
Slan (A. E. van Vogt)
Ubik (PKD)
...And call me Conrad (AKA This Immortal, Roger Zelazny)

The books or authors they are named for don’t seem to refer to any elements of their personality or powers, they’re just references.

[Narkis]

I watched the old anime when I was in high school and got hooked. It remains one my favorite ones of all time. Since then, I've been checking the manga every couple years to read the ~5 issues that have come out. At this rate, my grandchildren will see me get irrationally happy one day, and I'll have to explain to them that Berserk has finally ended.

I also really liked the Golden Age OVAs that came out a few years ago. A shame the new series was so terrible.

[GloatingSwine]

Given that the series is about 80% finished, and is at about 2 issues a year, by my calculations it should be finished in about 2065. Just in time for the release of Winds of Winter.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I really want to emphasize that this is not a general discussion thread this is a thread where Callos is reading through it blind. Y'all keep your spoilers in your pants.

Anyway yeah, I do understand finding the other members of the Godhand (outside of Void and Femto) to be bland, but I actually kinda like em. Conrad and Ubik resemble something that I don't quite recall at the moment that makes it clear that they're both heavily inspired by sci fi authors or something along those lines and it's real cool. The succubus lady is basically just a standard horny demon, but executed really well.

Also yeah Behelit's are horrifying I love them.

I should note, before I started reading, I watched the Golden Age trilogy on Netflix. I may not remember what reminded me that Berserk exists, but I whetted my appetite with some else before resolving to shoulder my way through some baffling translations (I don't know who 'Gatts' is, but he looks an awful lot like Guts) to enjoy one of the definitive Seinen works. So events from the Golden Age I have a rough knowledge of, but three not-so-long movies condensing down multiple volumes is obviously going to lose some bits in a pragmatic adaptation. Everything AFTER the Golden Age arc is a mystery to me though aside from like...names of things.

I mis-spoke apparently about the Godhand. I like ALL of their designs visually, my nitpicks were that Ubik and Conrad are very similar to one another so one of them should be more distinct from the other and that aside from his helmet and wings, Femto's design is a bit dull. But that's all they are, nitpicks. Slan might be your standard horny devil for the most part, but she's also seemingly fused with a gorgon which is cool and she (as well as the rest of the Godhand) is much more sinister than your bod standard horny devil, more carousing than arousing. Part of that sinister aura is all about that all important PRESENTATION(!) that sets villains apart and the Godhand have some pretty awesome presentation so far.

[GloatingSwine]

Yeah, Ubik and Conrad are both just a really round face on top of some Stuff, and they're both sort of the supporting members of the band so they don't get much to distinguish them.

Ubik wears goggles though, so that's how you can tell them apart.


Femto's design is mostly just to keep him looking like Griffith.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Well, that took a turn towards a more realistic grimdark!

I've gotten into the Golden Age arc proper now and boy howdy is it impressive that Guts is as well adjusted as he is!

It started with the Godhand but there's definitely a 'fate' theme that's running pretty strong even in the past. More importantly a 'you can't fight fate' theme but here we have Guts doing so. Repeatedly even. From surviving a coffin birth from a dead woman, not catching the plague from his adoptive mother, surviving a seemingly fatal plunge off a cliff with a crossbow bolt in his chest, and defeating the Grey Knight despite the fact his head should have been knocked off. There's a recurring thread here that either Guts is defying fate...or fate is keeping Guts alive for some reason despite the world's and his own best efforts to get him killed.

So, Guts childhood. That's certainly rough and the imagery certainly doesn't pull any punches without getting exploitive. Having Shisu and Gambino as surrogate parents is definitely not ideal...hut something does confuse me about Gambino. The guy has a moment of seeming caring for his ward but also sells his body. Is the former just guilt about the later or did two years without his leg sour him on the kid bringing him money to support him? Cause it's a real illogical hatred on Gambino's part, you'd think he'd dote on the kid to ensure the coins keep flowing but no! Also he just seemed like a piece of work in general but some of his memories are willing to kill Guts, without a second thought, for offing the rotten ass that threatened their lives. You'd think they'd be cheering Guts on!

Afterwards Guts battle with the Grey Knight, who's name escapes me, and meeting the Hawks. And Griffith is a weird dude. He's got the whole angelic messiah thing going on but still ends up...well...Femto. So things obviously go wrong and I have a general idea of what that is but even now there's flashes of it. Griffith doesn't..feel real, like he doesn't think about things and people the way regular people do. His fight with Guts is pretty great too..does a good job of illustrating that Griffith is the superior fighter but Guts is the better soldier/survivor. Ended this reading stint with a night time raid on an unknown enemy with Guts entrusted as the rearguard for the Hawks.

Also, Casca. She is a character that I'm going to have to remind myself is older than me and there have been a lot of characters in a similar mold that have followed her that I've seen first. The 'discard being a woman to be a fighter' character, the Ladette, so on and so forth. This isn't to say she is a bad character or that I dislike her, I've just seen a lot of her before now. Even then, there's justification considering she's running with mercenaries and seemingly commands them too. They, even if Griffith doesn't care that she's a woman, wouldn't trust her or follow her if she wasn't a hard ass and it's not as simple as saying she's just being sincere towards Guts, cause she's not. Guts, at the moment, is an object of jealousy and dislike, cause he was a forced reminder that...well..she's still a woman. That other people will see her as one even as she tries to get them to forget that fact. In other words, she gets an allowance for her age on being an archetype I'd normally be more critical of because it's been done, and sometimes done VERY poorly, to death and back. So she's got time to prove herself which isn't bad considering she already has been.

Still enjoying myself!

[LaZodiac]

To put it bluntly, Casca is the best character in Berserk probably. Like from a like.. actual person standpoint, she is a genuinely good person and I love her.

[Callos_DeTerran]

To put it bluntly, Casca is the best character in Berserk probably. Like from a like.. actual person standpoint, she is a genuinely good person and I love her.

I've gotten a bit further and Casca...boy howdy do I get her frustration at constantly banging her head on someone else's stubborn nature.

Though, strictly speaking, I don't know how good you can say a person is when their official job description is 'will kill lots of people for money'. Seems cool with her troops though and the world itself has a brutality to it, so I don't hold it against her much.

[LaZodiac]

I've gotten a bit further and Casca...boy howdy do I get her frustration at constantly banging her head on someone else's stubborn nature.

Though, strictly speaking, I don't know how good you can say a person is when their official job description is 'will kill lots of people for money'. Seems cool with her troops though and the world itself has a brutality to it, so I don't hold it against her much.

I mean that's true, but you can be a hired mercenary and still be a good person. No one but Casca and I guess Ricken ever considered doing it though.

[GloatingSwine]

Cause it's a real illogical hatred on Gambino's part, you'd think he'd dote on the kid to ensure the coins keep flowing but no! Also he just seemed like a piece of work in general but some of his memories are willing to kill Guts, without a second thought, for offing the rotten ass that threatened their lives. You'd think they'd be cheering Guts on!

Human emotions very often are illogical.

Gambino blames Guts for Shisu getting the plague and heaps basically all blame for anything he suffers on him. He doesn't kill him as long as he can earn a coin from him, until he finally gets drunk enough that his hatred overcomes pragmatism, but his "training" is basically as close to beating the crap out of Guts as he can get away with to a child in front of his men.

And yeah, the other mercenaries were willing to kill Guts for killing Gambino because Gambino was still the one that put food in their bellies and coin in their pockets.

[Callos_DeTerran]

And yeah, the other mercenaries were willing to kill Guts for killing Gambino because Gambino was still the one that put food in their bellies and coin in their pockets.

Did he after losing his leg? The implication that I got from the conversation the other mercenaries had while he was sitting on the hill was that Gambino didn't really do anything at that point and if it wasn't for fear/nostalgia/because Guts paid for him, they probably would have ditched him long ago.

[Yanagi]

Did he after losing his leg? The implication that I got from the conversation the other mercenaries had while he was sitting on the hill was that Gambino didn't really do anything at that point and if it wasn't for fear/nostalgia/because Guts paid for him, they probably would have ditched him long ago.

To the mercenaries, Guts is a patricide. Even if they don't feel specific good feelings about Gambino, it's still part of their sense of "what is normal, and thus moral" that a kid doesn't kill their parent. And Guts is already understood as abnormal because of his corpse-birth and his early adoption of mercenary lifestyle, so they're primed to look at him as different specifically in a way that makes him more guilty.

That people tend to be shallow, and thus value a vague story that's comfortable (Gambino is Guts' dad; The Count is a good father and a necessarily stern ruler) over specifics that are uncomfortable (Gambino is egregiously abusive and escalating in his forms of abuse; The Count is a monster who imprisoned Theresia)--and will specifically try to cling to the former when confronted with the latter--is a theme of Berserk.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I guess I could see the patricide argument, considering how severely frowned upon such things were in that day and age.

In any case, I haven't had a chance to keep reading since when I last stopped but I didn't want to provide an update yet because while there was lots of good content, there's not a lot to discuss, you know?

I've cleared my way through the night raid, including Griffith's daring rescue of Guts and the entire fight with Nosferatu Zodd. I gotta say, I'm not used to not reading shounen anymore considering I was waiting the entire time for Guts or Zodd to start explaining what they were doing and why but they just kept to the action the entire way through. A nice change of pace to skip the self-reflection all the time and the action was much easier to read this go around. I said I had trouble following what was happening in the fight against the Count and I meant it, but the fight with Zodd, by comparison, was super easy to follow. I hope we get more Zodd and less count in future battles. I'll also say that I found a different translation which is far more palatable to read, which is great, but the downside is that I get a small version of any of the double page spread images. Which bothers me, but waaayyyyyy less than a bad translation.

Also had the water fight between Guts and Griffith and...man is Griffith hard to read, especially between what I've seen before (the Golden Age movies which cut scenes like this to cut down on runtime) and what I know is eventually going to happen. Does he genuinely value Guts as a companion or is he a particularly valuable tool that Griffith is willing to risk his own life for? How much of Femto is already in Griffith?

The conflict between Guts and Casca is good though, you don't often see main protagonists called out for their reckless and headstrong ways with the protagonist actually bothered by the criticism...but being unable to change it cause...that's just who Guts is. He would like to be different, but he's not and he can't deny his protective instincts now that he has people he gives a damn about. It reminds me, in a good way, of Naruto in that sense but in a far darker sense.

Zod was cool, not much chance for characterization but I'm sure he'll b back for more later. it was a nice twist to see a battle-fetishist like him actually be ticked off that someone stopped the fight. All too often I see them willing to let a worthy opponent go so they can fight them later, once they're stronger. Zod ain't about that, a fight to the death means a fight to the death dammit, even if he's suddenly fond of his opponents.

[GloatingSwine]

How much of Femto is already in Griffith?

There is nothing in Femto that was not already in Griffith.

[Callos_DeTerran]

There is nothing in Femto that was not already in Griffith.

Clarification, Femto, from what I've seen, appears to be Griffith's worse traits being dominant and maybe being amplified by the act of sacrifice. I did not mean to imply that Griffith and Femto don't share their traits, but rather which ones are dominant.

[GloatingSwine]

The only real difference is that joining the Godhand suppresses Griffith's inhibitions and conscience.

Griffith has already told you who he is and how he regards people, it would be wise to take him at his word....

[Callos_DeTerran]

The only real difference is that joining the Godhand suppresses Griffith's inhibitions and conscience.

Griffith has already told you who he is and how he regards people, it would be wise to take him at his word....

I don't think I've gotten quite that far yet. All I know is his dream.