Death Battle 5: Mister Rogers in a Bloodstained Sweater

[Lemmy]

Also, gameplay mechanics are generally disconsidered, since they are made with game design/balance in mind, and usually not meant to be accurate representation of what the character can do.

I mean... Just off the top of my head I can name a game where Green Arrow can beat Superman, one where Videl can beat Gogeta, Vegetto and Jiren, and one where Phoenix Wright can defeat Hulk, Thor and Dormammu then move on to single-handedly beat the crap out of Galactus.

[Reddish Mage]

1: Dragon Ball Super is canon.

2: When did they use stuff from Super? All I remember in the Goku/Superman rematch was them using BoG and Rez F. Material from Super would have completely changed the fight.

Wait what? They decided the fight on the conclusion that Superman can do the impossible and Goku was always striving to reach the perfection that Superman represents.

I don’t think Goku gaining a couple of levels and the new transformation changes that equation.

[Lord Raziere]

Wait what? They decided the fight on the conclusion that Superman can do the impossible and Goku was always striving to reach the perfection that Superman represents.

I don’t think Goku gaining a couple of levels and the new transformation changes that equation.

you mean the perfection the Milkmanman represents. Superman is just a pale shadow of the true superpower that is the DC hypermilk delivery man.

[Rater202]

Wait what? They decided the fight on the conclusion that Superman can do the impossible and Goku was always striving to reach the perfection that Superman represents.

I don’t think Goku gaining a couple of levels and the new transformation changes that equation.

1: That's a narrative argument, not an argument on feats. Death battles break their own rules and 2: It's not accurate becuase everyone who has ever been on this show can do the impossible, including Goku, and their assumption is founded on the logic that Superman is infinitely strong and that no one is stronger than him, both of which are demonstrably false in-universe

In other words, I'm ignoring that.

In the Dragon Ball Super version of the fight with Lord Beerus, Goku keeped getting beat down only to suddenly feel determination and not only be restored to full strength and health but made significantly more powerful which is a function of the Super Saiyan God form.

In other words, while in that form, Goku would have been able to rapidly recover from damage and loss of stamina as well as become noticeably more powerful at a rate faster than what Superman could achieve.

This is in addition to that fight putting Goku at the Universe Buster level.

That in and of itself would be enough to change the outcome of the fight if you're going by demonstrable feats rather than pulling narrative tropes out of your butt.

But even if we assume that Goku never got any stronger in base form after then and only gained skill and transformations, he's still a potential Universe Buster.

More specifically, in the Anime version rather than the movie version, Goku is roughly equal to Lord Beerus and is losing on a matter of skill and inexperience with Godly power(as opposed tot eh movie, where he was maybe 70 of Beerus's power.)

Goku and Beerus created shockwaves across the universe that caused planets at the edges of the universe to disintegrate with each blow. At this point in time, they were meeting each other equally.

This means that Goku's punch is roughly 1/2 of a Universe buster at this point.

Now, I can't at this time recall what form Goku was in at the time, but we know that it was either Super Saiyan God or base Super Saiyan(after his power significantly increased) and that Super Saiyan Blue is 1: Super Saiyan God combined with Super Saiyan and 2: Both more powerful and more energy-efficient than Super Saiyan 3.

This means that Goku, if his base power has not increased since the first time he used Super Saiyan God, is greater than 8 times as powerful as enough to be 1/2 of a universe buster, or is equivocal to 4 Universe busters in a single punch, if that force were used properly. He could be as much as 50% enough to be 1/2 of a universe buster or the equivalent of 25 universe busters.

Superman's greatest feat of Durability in any source is tanking a blast from a weapon capable of destroying ten star systems simultaneously.

That's a drop in the bucket compared to a punch with enough energy to destroy a universe four times over. Goku in blue would pulp Superman with a single serious punch.

But it goes beyond that: by combining the Kaioken with Super Saiyan Blue, Goku can go to either greater than 80 times enough force to pulp universe or else 1000 times enough energy to bust a universe.

and before you claim that it can't be true becuase he doesn't shatter reality with every move: IT's all Ki based and an ability that everyone has is the power to control exactly where their ki goes to keep the energy concentrated into what they want it to be, which is something death battles ignores when calcing things based on the size of a boom.

But wait, there's more: Autonomous Ultra Instinct!

Goku in this form possesses a power that is even greater than his Kaioken X 20 augmented Super Saiyan Blue, to an unknown degree.

Ultra Instinct allows Goku to attack and defend perfectly and adapt while he's fighting--it is explicitly pointed out, the for example, that every punch he throws is faster, sharper, and harder hitting than the last, and the last time he fights Jiren he goes from parrying Jiren's blasts to countering and overcoming them in mere moments. Once Goku masters he, he has a massive increase in power while fighting Jiren twice in short succession, once in response to Jiren temporarily overpowering him and once again in response to Jiren attacking his friends.

At a conservative estimate, if you assume that Superman was able to push Goku to his absolute limits and transcend beyond them to achieve Ultra Instinct, Goku would not only be hitting Superman with punches capable of shattering the universe a dozen times over, give or take, but each blow would be deadlier than the last, harder to defend against, and Superman wouldn't be able to actually hit Goku more than maybe once or twice before Goku's defensive skills adapted.

Take Super into account and Goku can't lose to anything dependant on traditional combat.

[Lemmy]

Can't wait for a Saitama vs Superman match... But I doubt they would ever make it, since such a match would clear any doubt of bias from their part.

[Devonix]

Still find it odd putting Goku or Beerus at universe buster level when canonically the only universe buster is supposed to be Zeno

[Dragonus45]

Still find it odd putting Goku or Beerus at universe buster level when canonically the only universe buster is supposed to be Zeno

Zeno can just blink worlds out of existence sure, but just because he is the best at tearing reality asunder doesn’t mean he is the only person who could do it.

[Rater202]

Still find it odd putting Goku or Beerus at universe buster level when canonically the only universe buster is supposed to be Zeno

That is never said anywhere.

Zeno is the only one who can Erase universes, which isn't the same as destroying them(there are still pieces left if Goku breaks it, and might be if Beerus does it.)

And while Zeno rules the Omniverse, he's not the strongest entitity: That would be Zalama, he Dragon God who created the Super Dragon Balls, as "Super Shenron" is both explicitly able to do anything and recreated universes that were erased by the combined power of two Zenos.

[Rynjin]

I...don't think that follows. Just because the Super Dragon or whatever can undo something Zeno did, it doesn't make him more powerful. Especially since it did something that the Zenos actually WANTED to happen.

[Lord Raziere]

I...don't think that follows. Just because the Super Dragon or whatever can undo something Zeno did, it doesn't make him more powerful. Especially since it did something that the Zenos actually WANTED to happen.

But couldn't make happen themselves.

What do people do when they need something done that can't be done themselves? they get more powerful people to do things for them.

[HolyDraconus]

Some Things.

Not quite accurate. WoG stated that Goku is weaker than Beerus, by a large margin. And Beerus is far stronger than the average God of Destruction. Even with UI, Goku isn't up to snuff to taking out Beerus. It's been speculated that a FUSION could come closer to rivaling Beerus, but nothing has been seen. Add to that, in the current Manga Arc Beerus gives no flops about what's going on and Goku got slapped down HARD. Twice. Goku has gotten exponentially stronger in Super, yet he still isn't a true threat to his own Universe's GoD.

That is never said anywhere.

Zeno is the only one who can Erase universes, which isn't the same as destroying them(there are still pieces left if Goku breaks it, and might be if Beerus does it.)

And while Zeno rules the Omniverse, he's not the strongest entitity: That would be Zalama, he Dragon God who created the Super Dragon Balls, as "Super Shenron" is both explicitly able to do anything and recreated universes that were erased by the combined power of two Zenos.

I disagree with this. That whole Arc was predicated on the fact that ANY wish other than what Zeno wanted would of resulted in complete annihilation of the ones that made it. If Zalama could override Zeno, that wouldn't have been a factor. Add in that in all of DB history the ONLY person to DIRECTLY ask Zeno to do anything, and get away with it, was Goku with the Button, and it stands to reason with everything shown that Zalama was allowed to do what he did cause Zeno LET him. Zeno has only been shown to destroy things, and its considered that he's the God of Destruction's GOD of Destruction, but, yet every single being shown (save one, which is a spoiler) says without a doubt that he is basically the King of Everything. He's a child, so destroying stuff like a child makes sense. But that Button HAD to of came from SOMEWHERE right?


If Superman v Goku was to happen, again, now, with Super on the table.... it would be a closer match. I would even say 50/50, especially since Goku has his own displayed feats of absurdity, like shaking infinity, or holding a black hole ( though he eventually failed to hold on to it). If the Prison Planet Arc and the SPOILER Arc is thrown in as well, I would even say, at the end of it, Goku may have a slight advantage to Superman.... BUT... If the newer Arcs ARE taken into effect Goku would lose the only means of hurting Supes outside of the Powerpole. Ki has been COMPLETELY divorced from Spirit, meaning its effectively physical damage. Absurd damage, true, but all physical. And Supes has shown ridiculous defenses against such.

[Rynjin]

But couldn't make happen themselves.

Wut? They made all 13 universe before. They are clearly and explicitly capable of doing so.

[Rater202]

Not quite accurate. WoG stated that Goku is weaker than Beerus, by a large margin. And Beerus is far stronger than the average God of Destruction. Even with UI, Goku isn't up to snuff to taking out Beerus. It's been speculated that a FUSION could come closer to rivaling Beerus, but nothing has been seen. Add to that, in the current Manga Arc Beerus gives no flops about what's going on and Goku got slapped down HARD. Twice. Goku has gotten exponentially stronger in Super, yet he still isn't a true threat to his own Universe's GoD.

Did he say it recently? Becuase the only example given was the "Goku is 7, Beerus is 10, Whis is 15," and that refers to the movie version, not Super. In Super, Goku and Beerus were hitting each other equally hard when they almost destroyed the universe.

Beyond that, Goku in Ultra Instinct is stronger than Jiren, who is stronger than Belmond, who is stronger than Beerus. Ergo, Goku in Ultra Instinct is stronger than Beerus by transitive property.

Even before that, Beerus seems shocked when Goku pulls the Kaioken against Hit and Whis implies that Goku with SS Blue Kaioken X10 is strong enough to defeat Beerus--Beerus's defensive response suggests that Beerus felt so too.

Goku got slapped down hard because Moro steals energy from people. He was draining Goku and Vegeta's ki that entire first fight and had fully absorbed both of their full power and left them for dead afterward.

It doesn't matter if you're stronger than someone if you can't hurt them.

Also, I fail to see how the current arc, which establishes 1: That Magic is a form os Ki use and that 2: Draining someone's ki and life force till they die means you absorb their soul* makes Ki less magically instead of more magically.

*Which, actually, now that I think about it, was implied all the way back when Cell powered up and his aura took the form of screaming ghosts.

[HolyDraconus]

Did he say it recently? Becuase the only example given was the "Goku is 7, Beerus is 10, Whis is 15," and that refers to the movie version, not Super. In Super, Goku and Beerus were hitting each other equally hard when they almost destroyed the universe.

Beyond that, Goku in Ultra Instinct is stronger than Jiren, who is stronger than Belmond, who is stronger than Beerus. Ergo, Goku in Ultra Instinct is stronger than Beerus by transitive property.

Even before that, Beerus seems shocked when Goku pulls the Kaioken against Hit and Whis implies that Goku with SS Blue Kaioken X10 is strong enough to defeat Beerus--Beerus's defensive response suggests that Beerus felt so too.

Goku got slapped down hard because Moro steals energy from people. He was draining Goku and Vegeta's ki that entire first fight and had fully absorbed both of their full power and left them for dead afterward.

It doesn't matter if you're stronger than someone if you can't hurt them.

Also, I fail to see how the current arc, which establishes 1: That Magic is a form os Ki use and that 2: Draining someone's ki and life force till they die means you absorb their soul* makes Ki less magically instead of more magically.

*Which, actually, now that I think about it, was implied all the way back when Cell powered up and his aura took the form of screaming ghosts.

No where has he stated that the Anime ( or Manga) invalidated his comment. Especially when both was supposed to expand on the movie. Like the Revival of F Arc did for THAT movie.

Moro was VASTLY depowered in that first exchange. And won. The second time he just beat them both down. And won.

Current Arc establishes through Geets that Ki is NOT spirit, but it IS life energy, when Geets went off to literally learn SPIRIT CONTROL. In reference to context: Supes is EXTREMELY durable to physical attacks. This arc firmly establishes that Ki and Ki based attacks ARE physical. Result: Supes hard resists Ki attacks.

[Rater202]

The arc also established that 1: Magic is a form of ki use and 2: Tat absorbing all of someone's ki means absorbing their soul--IT's explicitly stated that the souls of all people Moro drained to death are contained within his ki.

Moro won the first time becuase he cheated. He was constantly draining Goku and Vegeta's ki the entire fight.

[Rynjin]

The arc also established that 1: Magic is a form of ki use and 2: Tat absorbing all of someone's ki means absorbing their soul--IT's explicitly stated that the souls of all people Moro drained to death are contained within his ki.

Moro won the first time becuase he cheated. He was constantly draining Goku and Vegeta's ki the entire fight.

"Using your abilities to win a fight is CHEATING" is top tier scrubbery lol.

[Rater202]

"Using your abilities to win a fight is CHEATING" is top tier scrubbery lol.

What I meant is that it wasn't a fair fight.

Moro just kind of passively steals ki from the people around him. It doesn't matter how much stronger than him you are if he can take your strength from you and use it as if it was his own.

He is the one and only person in the entire franchise whose current power level has nothing to do with how dangerous he is.

[Lord Raziere]

Wut? They made all 13 universe before. They are clearly and explicitly capable of doing so.

Well yeah the Super Dragon Balls are, but Zeno can't. he just destroys. just because you can tear something doesn't mean you can put it back together. We have seen no evidence that Zeno is capable of any form of creation. he couldn't even make a computer pad to keep track while he watches his own freaking tournament, the High Priest did it for him.

[Traab]

Can't wait for a Saitama vs Superman match... But I doubt they would ever make it, since such a match would clear any doubt of bias from their part.

I havent watched season 2 yet, has saitama moved up to destroying all of reality yet? If not, might as well stick with the death battle variant we already had of them fighting only to have it broken up by black widow. One minute melee (that lasted 9 minutes)

[Lemmy]

I havent watched season 2 yet, has saitama moved up to destroying all of reality yet? If not, might as well stick with the death battle variant we already had of them fighting only to have it broken up by black widow. One minute melee (that lasted 9 minutes)

Doesn't matter. "Is invincible, vastly more powerful than everything and always wins with minimal effort" is Saitama's narrative theme. So if he doesn't win, they expose their BS argument.

[Keltest]

Doesn't matter. "Is invincible, vastly more powerful than everything and always wins with minimal effort" is Saitama's narrative theme. So if he doesn't win, they expose their BS argument.

Im not really familiar with OPM, but from what friends have described to me, isn't he only "invincible" in a straight up fight where his opponent tries to trade blows, and if he had to, say, cross a ravine then he's just a guy? Or have my friends just been lying to me because they know I wont bother to fact check them?

[Forum Explorer]

Im not really familiar with OPM, but from what friends have described to me, isn't he only "invincible" in a straight up fight where his opponent tries to trade blows, and if he had to, say, cross a ravine then he's just a guy? Or have my friends just been lying to me because they know I wont bother to fact check them?

No, anything physical is basically trivial for him. He once dropped a piece of food of a building, leaped off, grabbed it, and jumped back up to where he was sitting before someone could react. He also once jumped from the moon to earth once.

[Keltest]

No, anything physical is basically trivial for him. He once dropped a piece of food of a building, leaped off, grabbed it, and jumped back up to where he was sitting before someone could react. He also once jumped from the moon to earth once.

Well. I guess I know not to listen to these friends about media anymore.

[Devonix]

Well. I guess I know not to listen to these friends about media anymore.

The entire point of the series is that he's a character for whom the physical world holds no more challenge. anything.

The World of one punch man is based off of desire, and how that desire transforms you. It's about dreams and obsessions. People who Dream or obsess over something enough, and put in the work, can achieve it. It's what creates monsters in this universe but also affects heroes.

Saitama was obsessed with becoming the strongest, and so became that after training. It wasn't the type of training he did that mattered, it was his obsession with the training, and now he can do basically anything physically. His body has no limits, even though it shouldn't because of how simple his training was.

But now that you're goal is achieved, and you're still not emotionally fulfilled, what do you do with your life. It's a great series, you should read it.

You also can't really " Trade Blows " With him unless he lets you.

[Keltest]

The entire point of the series is that he's a character for whom the physical world holds no more challenge. anything.

The World of one punch man is based off of desire, and how that desire transforms you. It's about dreams and obsessions. People who Dream or obsess over something enough, and put in the work, can achieve it. It's what creates monsters in this universe but also affects heroes.

Saitama was obsessed with becoming the strongest, and so became that after training. It wasn't the type of training he did that mattered, it was his obsession with the training, and now he can do basically anything physically. His body has no limits, even though it shouldn't because of how simple his training was.

But now that you're goal is achieved, and you're still not emotionally fulfilled, what do you do with your life. It's a great series, you should read it.

You also can't really " Trade Blows " With him unless he lets you.

The way it was described to me, he literally had a superpower where if he could punch something, it would just be obliterated, no ifs ands or buts about it. But that was all he had, so while he was well equipped to deal with genre-related problems, just ordinary life still gave him all kinds of trouble. So if he wanted to reach something on a tall shelf without a ladder, he was out of luck unless he was willing to punch the building to death.

As I said, im no longer taking these friends at their word when they describe anime to me.

[Devonix]

The way it was described to me, he literally had a superpower where if he could punch something, it would just be obliterated, no ifs ands or buts about it. But that was all he had, so while he was well equipped to deal with genre-related problems, just ordinary life still gave him all kinds of trouble. So if he wanted to reach something on a tall shelf without a ladder, he was out of luck unless he was willing to punch the building to death.

As I said, im no longer taking these friends at their word when they describe anime to me.

Yeah it's sounding like these people haven't actually watched or red the series. The only time he couldn't do something physically was a gag when he was trying to swat a misquito that kept getting away.

His Super power is that he's the strongest. There are some things he can't do but that's getting into spoilers, and it's really a great series.

[Forum Explorer]

The way it was described to me, he literally had a superpower where if he could punch something, it would just be obliterated, no ifs ands or buts about it. But that was all he had, so while he was well equipped to deal with genre-related problems, just ordinary life still gave him all kinds of trouble. So if he wanted to reach something on a tall shelf without a ladder, he was out of luck unless he was willing to punch the building to death.

As I said, im no longer taking these friends at their word when they describe anime to me.

It's more like if his toilet is clogged can't fix it with his powers.

I mean, your friend isn't entirely wrong, ordinary life does give him all sorts of problems. But that's more because how often is super strength actually useful to you in ordinary life? Paying the bills, getting to a sale on time, waiting in line, even being stuck on a level in a video game. Being able to punch the moon out of orbit doesn't really help with any of that.

[Rater202]

Saitama is the man who got everything he ever wanted and found himself unsatisfied.

He's a hero for fun, but he's so strong that there's no challenge and he's bored. He also doesn't really consider himself much of a hero becuase he considers the struggle to be part of being a hero. A normal dude rushing into danger to save someone's life is brave. Saitama is in no danger doing the same. To him it's no different from holding the door for someone.

He considers Mumen Rider, a man with no powers who regularly gets the crap kicked out of him, to be a paragon of heroism becuase he knows the danger and constantly does good anyway. He's just a guy on a bike who goes around doing good deeds and he fights villains to buy time for the heroes who can stop them from doing it.

Saitama is also kind of a zen character: His "hero for fun" goal is more or less becuase he wants to be a hero. He's a hero for the sole sake of wanting to be a hero and he just doesn't really give a damn about anything else. Faction politics? This one guy keeps being given credit for Saitama's own deeds? Why does that matter? (Saitama is actually decently good friends with the guy who keeps accidentally stealing credit. Saitama's opinion is that thi guy can either soothes his conscience by being honest or continue to be a symbol of hope for the people who think he's the greatest. Either way, Saitama doesn't care.)

There's an argument that the series might be a metaphor for zen enlightenment.

[Lord Raziere]

I would describe Saitama as being like someone who figured out a way to use the Eight Gates from Naruto without dying: his physical power is astronomical in all ways you can think of, but he can't do any special tricks that any other ninja can. and to be honest, he'd be pretty useless against say....a criminal that avoids fighting whenever possible and does all their crime with stealth and such so you have to investigate and track them down and outwit them.

like no matter how good Saitama is at punching, he'd probably never be able to defeat a villain too smart to not get within his awareness in the first place. a lot of Saitama's victories come down to the fact that the villain makse themselves known and are obvious threat, when if they ever knew his power they'd know the smartest thing to is to simply be as low-key, evasive and under the radar in their schemes as possible. which y'know, goes for a lot of shonen protagonists, but Saitama is the most standout example. he simply would not be a good match up against someone so smart that Saitama would never meet them in the first place because he is too passive and simple-minded to actively investigate things and outwit someone to prevent something before it happens.

[Rynjin]

Well yeah the Super Dragon Balls are, but Zeno can't. he just destroys. just because you can tear something doesn't mean you can put it back together. We have seen no evidence that Zeno is capable of any form of creation. he couldn't even make a computer pad to keep track while he watches his own freaking tournament, the High Priest did it for him.

Where are you pulling this from, exactly?

Zeno is, again, explicitly stated to be the creator of all 13 universes.