Cloaking devices? Are you serious? The Empire has them, but they are damn near useless, compared to Trek equivilents. The way a cloaking device in Wars works is is blocks all light and signals in both directions. So while your enemies cant see you, you can't see anything outside of your cloaking field either.
While I agree that ST obviously has better cloaking technology than SW, it should be noted that a sufficiently skilled force user could direct a cloaked ship in combat. The cloaking would do nothing to interfere with his force senses.
The Empire was only able to produce four executor-class star destroyers, and yes, it nearly bankrupt them.
For everyone saying that ST has much more maneuverable ships, are we ignoring the starfighters. Yes they, don't have nearly the firepower, but they are much more maneuverable, and as the Alliance shows, they can be used to take down larger ships.
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The Executor nearly bankrupted the Empire. I highly doubt they could mass produce them.
Really? That part I didn't know. All I know is that more then one was buildable I didn't know it was a bankrupting sort of machine.
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While I agree that ST obviously has better cloaking technology than SW, it should be noted that a sufficiently skilled force user could direct a cloaked ship in combat. The cloaking would do nothing to interfere with his force senses.
The Empire was only able to produce four executor-class star destroyers, and yes, it nearly bankrupt them.
For everyone saying that ST has much more maneuverable ships, are we ignoring the starfighters. Yes they, don't have nearly the firepower, but they are much more maneuverable, and as the Alliance shows, they can be used to take down larger ships.
The Executor, the Intimidator, and Knight's Hammer? are the only ones I ever knew about.
Another thing about the technology of both. They seem to have convieniant plot excuses for some stuff to work, and others not (Good example are the Stealth Generators seen in KotoR.)
The Executor, the Intimidator, and Knight's Hammer? are the only ones I ever knew about.
Here’s a list of Super star destroyers
Executor
Intimidator
Ion Fist
Knight hammer
Lusankya
Razor’s kiss
Reaper
Terror
Vengance
Whelm
There’s a lot more but they all fall into other classes because writers can’t leave well enough alone. edit
When you get to ships of that size you start suffering from diminishing returns. In other words, your not getting out what you’re putting into it.
Sure it may be able to take on a fleet by itself, but a fleet can disperse and be in several places at once, and those can’t. Besides if that ship gets destroyed, you just lost a ridicules amount of people and threw away a stupid amount of resources.
Executor-class Star Dreadnoughts (largest during the original movies)
Aggressor
Annihilator
Executor
Guardian
Intimidator
Iron Fist
Knight Hammer
Lusanyka
Razor's Kiss
Reaper
Terror
Vengeance
Whelm
Eclipse-class Star Dreadnoughts (largest, with a superlaser similar to the Death Star's, but less powerful)
Eclipse
Eclipse II (apparently originality was becoming difficult by this time)
Sovereign-class Super Dreadnoughts (next largest class)
Sovereign
three others were planned but never completed due to the death of the Emperor
There were numerous other smaller classes of smaller Star Dreadnoughts or Super Star Destroyers, and then the multiple Star Destroyer classes.
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Turbolaser=Laser. The 1701-D can defend against "Lasers" with their navigation sheilds. A turbolaser is a laser, it has been said several times in the Star Wars tech manuals, though I don't quite understand how Spun Tibanna gas becomes a laser.
I don't care what the tech manuals say, if it doesn't walk like a duck or quack like a duck, I think it's reasonable to assume it isn't a duck. Turbolasers do not behave even approximately in the way a "real" laser would--they travel at sublight speeds and radiate light in all directions, not just along their direction of travel. Ergo, they are not lasers, and a single throwaway line in a single episode of Trek cannot be assumed to act as a perfect defence against them. (Besides which, that line never made any sense in the first place. A laser beam is just light. We can see the Enterprise just fine while its shields are raised, so its shields must let light through--ergo, they would let a laser beam through).
As for only four Executor class ships bankrupting the Empire, that sounds unlikely in the extreme. A single Death Star contains more material than hundreds (possibly thousands) of Executor-class ships, so if the Empire has the resources to build most of a Death Star in a matter of a year or two (as we saw in Return of the Jedi), they can EASILY build as many Executors as they want.
Executor-class Star Dreadnoughts (largest during the original movies)
Aggressor
Annihilator
Executor
Guardian
Intimidator
Iron Fist
Knight Hammer
Lusanyka
Razor's Kiss
Reaper
Terror
Vengeance
Whelm
Eclipse-class Star Dreadnoughts (largest, with a superlaser similar to the Death Star's, but less powerful)
Eclipse
Eclipse II (apparently originality was becoming difficult by this time)
Sovereign-class Super Dreadnoughts (next largest class)
Sovereign
three others were planned but never completed due to the death of the Emperor
There were numerous other smaller classes of smaller Star Dreadnoughts or Super Star Destroyers, and then the multiple Star Destroyer classes.
Yeah, I left out the ones that were of different classes (because as I said it gets ridiculous) and stuck to just the one you see in the movie. and it looks like i missed a few, but nobody's perfect.
Nitpick:
1. Star destroyers aren’t supposed to be able to enter atmospheres.
2. That star destroyer really wasn’t large enough
3. How is forcing down a ship that size with the force not broken?
4. This Sith Apprentice guy does nothing we haven’t seen before.
However this game does look cool, and looks like it will be a bit of a refreshing change of pace from the Jedi Knight series (which I was sort of irritated when you could take dark force powers and still be a Jedi). Oh and some how wielding a red lightsaber backhand makes you some sort of badass?
On the subject of SW vs ST-
Star Wars would eat Star Trek alive. First of all, Star Trek ships are slower at FTL, which is all that matters. It takes them centuries to cross the galaxy. Star Wars? A week or two, tops. By the time the Federation ships got there to respond, the place is already blown to hell, and the Star Wars ships are halfway across the galaxy.
2. In order to obtain the superlaser's technology, the Borg have to assimilate the Death Star. Not an easy task, seeing as your average Borg cube is the size of a Star Destroyer. And the Death Star has tens of thousands of turbolasers. Bye-bye, Borg.
3. Star Wars has Star Trek horribly outnumbered. In the movies, the Imperial Fleet consisted of 25,000 Star Destroyers, in total. (This is from the background books, it's not stated in the movie.) With tens of thousands of smaller support craft. Star Trek has like 1,000 combat-ready ships, tops. Most of those don't even stand a chance against a single Star Destroyer, let alone 25. (Note: This is assuming the ships have roughly equal weapons systems, when in fact the Slave 1, Boba Fett's small attack ship, has greater firepower on it then the Enterprise-D. So Star Wars wins there.)
I've actually had this same conversation numerous times with different friends of mine. (Man, that makes me sound like such an 'effing nerd, I love it.)
The simple fact of it is, Star Wars generally has a greater energy need and output for weapons/defenses/hyperdrive, while Star Trek tries to somewhat limit their resources and explain them much more.
So, what you lose in explaining how things work, is a gain in the overall power of technology/resources blah blah.
Instead of explaining that a Death Star works with this reactor, which does this to put out this much energy, in the movies, it just does, and "Holy sh**! That thing is gonna f*** us up!!!!!111"
In Star Trek you have anti-matter reactor output and we can do X in Y way to produce Z effect and save the day just in time for tea! Huzzah!
Obviously this is somewhat spurred by the different formats of the invidual media and so on and so forth, but that explains why you have such a drastic difference. And in the end, there's no doubt about it, the Federation and the Borg allied together would be nothing but a speck of insignificant fighting power compared to the might of the Empire, at least in open combat. Guerilla tactics, well, that's a whole other story.
Exactly. Star Trek is more "realistic" then Star Wars, and so suffers for it. And guerrila warfare wouldn't even work, since the Star Wars ships have much faster FTL drives. The guerrilla bases would be destroyed before they got there to defend it.
((Although, to be fair, the Borg are basically "Holy ****! This thing is gonna mess us up!!!11 as well.))
Exactly. Star Trek is more "realistic" then Star Wars, and so suffers for it.
Neither can be classified as remotely approaching "realistic". Both have magic; Star Trek has telepaths, Greek gods, Q, that whole "time-slowy-down" thing in Insurrection, while Star Wars has the force. I would actually count both as being science fiction/fantasy hybrids as a result.
That said, no matter what the difference is in weapon and shield power levels is, the difference in space travel pretty much gives Star Wars an instant win. The ability to travel several thousand times faster than your opponent (and also have messages sent instantaneously between craft, in Trek messages can take years to travel) pretty much means that the entire Imperial armada can attack each individual Star Trek planet/base/ship individually, without leaving themselves exposed to counterattack.
Damn, that's possibly the geekiest thing I've ever written.
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I don't care what the tech manuals say, if it doesn't walk like a duck or quack like a duck, I think it's reasonable to assume it isn't a duck. Turbolasers do not behave even approximately in the way a "real" laser would--they travel at sublight speeds and radiate light in all directions, not just along their direction of travel. Ergo, they are not lasers, and a single throwaway line in a single episode of Trek cannot be assumed to act as a perfect defence against them. (Besides which, that line never made any sense in the first place. A laser beam is just light. We can see the Enterprise just fine while its shields are raised, so its shields must let light through--ergo, they would let a laser beam through).
As for only four Executor class ships bankrupting the Empire, that sounds unlikely in the extreme. A single Death Star contains more material than hundreds (possibly thousands) of Executor-class ships, so if the Empire has the resources to build most of a Death Star in a matter of a year or two (as we saw in Return of the Jedi), they can EASILY build as many Executors as they want.
The Star Wars turbolaser and the Star Trek phaser are essentially the same weapon. Both take a gas and excite it to a plasma state where it is fired as a pure energy beam weapon. (According to Star Trek AND Star Wars Tech books)
So it stands to reason that if Star Trek shield tech can defend against a phaser then it can defend against a turbolaser.
Also, bear in mind that in Star Trek VI the standard shields of THAT era of Star Trek tech allowed a ship to survive virtually unscathed from the shock wave of the massive explosion of Praxis, the explosion was the main Dilithium mining complex which would amount to over a hundred warp cores going critical. The explosion was so massive that it caused permanant damage to the atmosphere of the Klingon home world. By Voyager time the shields were so strong that the ship was able to observe and survive a supernova from within its solar system.
Still think those shields are weaker than Star Wars shields that can be penetrated by an asteroid? Or perhaps you mean the Star Wars shields that repel energy fire but allow droids to simply WALK right through them?
Death Star II took four years to build, not two and it was not yet 100% complete by the end of Episode VI it was merely "Fully armed and operational" which isn't the same thing.
Nitpick:
1. Star destroyers aren’t supposed to be able to enter atmospheres.
2. That star destroyer really wasn’t large enough
3. How is forcing down a ship that size with the force not broken?
4. This Sith Apprentice guy does nothing we haven’t seen before.
1. Who says?
2. Maybe the planet was much larger
3. Size there is not, size in the mind is. Matters not to the force.
4. so? Are Navy SEALS all original in their combat techniques? Does that make them any less imposing?
Several combat droids with decent reflexes, armed with a wide variety of shotguns, mini-cannons and fully automatic machine guns.
I would love to see a lightsaber block multiple incoming wide-angled shotgun blasts.
They did this, or something very like it, in Betrayal. Jacen Solo vs. 20 or so Corsec agents with automatic rifles, hiding behind blast shields so he couldn't bat their lasers back at them. They also had a pair of probot-esque things that could fire rockets/ other heavy ordinance. Solo won anyway.
Then they did it again with all-droids. Solo won that one too.
An all-ysalamiri equipped force tried a mass fire tactics on Luke and Mara. That didn't work either.
On the other had, Jacen Solo /= average jedi. He's special. Apparently. Ish. And he was on Centerpoint Station, and pulled down a ceiling panel to act as a shield for him.
They didn't do shotguns, to my knowledge, but Corran Horn survived multiple laser flechette mines to the face. But again, that was special, and most jedi can't do what he did to survive.
Sorry about the delay in the reply, but I just felt the need.
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And that is why one uses flamethrowers, microwave cookers, and sonic weapons instead. Maybe a sandblaster too. Oh, and a water cannon, goodbye lightsaber.
As for Starfleet what they need is a good Ork Waagh. Even if they can find a way to make treaties with and water down the Romulans and Klingons there is no way that would work on the Orks. They all have a racial memory of 8 seconds and a shorter attention span.
Last edited by Belteshazzar : 08-06-2007 at 09:48 PM.
Andromeda could deal with the Star Destroyers/Death Star easily and I would put Rommy against a Jedi and give her a fair chance to win (super human reflexes, super strength, the processing power of a warship to account for everything, and greater than average durability)
I agree with this, although you forgot Nova Bombs.
I see we have alot of die hard treckers here. You are all forgetting the fact that even one low level hit on a ship or space station in start treck half the bridge controles blow up and they need to swich to augsilery power. and thats even if the shields are not breached.
speaking of shields, ST shields work against evergy and physical objects SW shields only work on energy.
also ST has no fighter cover to speak off, yeah they can use shuttles and runabouts but still they are not a deticated fighter. SW uses combined fleat tactics , cruisers, distroyers, Battleships, and Carriers. the IMP DS and the Mon Cal cruisers are are Batteships that can carry at least one wing of fighters.
Its been pruven in WW2 that a combined arms navy centered on Carriers is a vastly superier tactical force than one centered on Battleships.
well even though Im startting to hate star trek beond movies 1 3 4 and 6 (yeah I like one good sci fi story) I have to give a VS match to the trek.
why becouse of nonsensical bad writing and techno bable. All they ever do is use a communicator a phaser attach it to the nav deflector and fire a takion beem to distroy or fix what ever. sadly no one can stand up to crappy writers.
Everyone's missing the point here. Star Wars doesn't win because of Jedi. Star Wars wins because of massively overwhelming firepower. And Star Wars ships have particle shields for physical matter that are up at all times, ray shields are only raised during combat. There are several examples of SW shields working on physical objects, for example, both asteroid fields in 4 and 5, and the fact that in the Episode 6 novel, several ships are destroyed by hitting a shield. Plus the fact that turbolasers have a yield at least dozens of times that of phasers.
Does no one agree that Star Trek has better sensors? Longer distance and greater information makes me think that Star Trek should win this hands down. Especially since the Imperial fleet that attacked Hoth may not have been detected if they jumped out of hyperspace farther from the system, whereas in Star Trek, the sensors can detect things as far as a ~=~2.1 light years away (the most extreme example ever cited, season 7 TNG, unknown episode title.)
I don't even play 40k, let alone tyranids, but the hive mind would devour the entire star wars galaxy, in fact that's probably the galaxy they devoured before moving to their current location. I mean seriously, there were only one million clones scheduled for production, several times that in imperial guardsmen die every day, and they are only second or third most populous in the 40k universe. Star Wars would be a skinny white boy in Bubba(40k)'s jail cell.
Does no one agree that Star Trek has better sensors? Longer distance and greater information makes me think that Star Trek should win this hands down.
Uh, sensors are useful, to be sure, but Star Wars ships can go thousands of times faster than Star Trek ships. Isn't that a little problem for Trek? I haven't even mentioned galaxy-wide instant communications or superweapons capable of destroying entire solar systems. It wouldn't be a fight, but a massacre.
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Uh, sensors are useful, to be sure, but Star Wars ships can go thousands of times faster than Star Trek ships. Isn't that a little problem for Trek? I haven't even mentioned galaxy-wide instant communications or superweapons capable of destroying entire solar systems. It wouldn't be a fight, but a massacre.
Yes, but if I can see you wne you can't see me that gives me an extreme advantage over you. Always
I don't care if you're using a rocket launcher and I'm using a handgun, if I can see you long before you can see me, then you're going down.
Also, someone else mentioned fighters and claimed that The Federation had no fighters.
I will cite again (4th time?) The Defiant class and Akira class are both very fast-moving small craft with incredible maneuverability and firepower. Both classes were designed specifically to fight the Borg.
Also, everyone here has been dealing with Starfleet technology but has not factored in ANY of the technology and spacecraft from the other Federation races such as the Vulcans, Klingons, Andorians, etc... Many of those races have the warrior mentality and have multiple small fighter type craft. They are all members of the Federation and are therefore admissible in any argument of Federation vs. Empire.
(which is what this argument is really about... you have Federation vs. Empire or Borg vs. Empire; not really ST vs SW)
Yes, but if I can see you wne you can't see me that gives me an extreme advantage over you. Always
I don't care if you're using a rocket launcher and I'm using a handgun, if I can see you long before you can see me, then you're going down.
No. You don't get it do you? The most extreme range for sensors cited in ST is about 2.1 light years. Star Destroyers travel millions of times the speed of light. They will literally outrun the sensors data returns.
Quote:
Also, everyone here has been dealing with Starfleet technology but has not factored in ANY of the technology and spacecraft from the other Federation races such as the Vulcans, Klingons, Andorians, etc... Many of those races have the warrior mentality and have multiple small fighter type craft. They are all members of the Federation and are therefore admissible in any argument of Federation vs. Empire.
(which is what this argument is really about... you have Federation vs. Empire or Borg vs. Empire; not really ST vs SW)
Start naming ones that can field at least a hundred thousand fighters. Because you will face at least that many Tie fighters.
The 25,000 Star Destroyers (no other ship classes are being counted here) currently in Imperial service is more than every military vessel of any class ever fielded by the federation combined. You might get an equal number of ships if you include all classes from all of the federation allies as well.
In cannon the empire literally flew the oceans of a planet away as punishment. We are talking a transport fleet measured in the hundreds of millions just for that task alone. Over a million ships per day are needed just to keep the capital fed.
The yield on a turbo laser is more than that of a Photon torpedo. A small fleet (less than 50 Star Destroyers) boiled the oceans away on 1 world using just turbo lasers and did it in under a week.
Star Wars is just orders of magnitude above Star Trek in nearly every category.
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The yield on a turbo laser is more than that of a Photon torpedo.
Which, being true by the numbers each gives, doesn't sound right.
An anti-matter/matter reaction is enormous, even for small amounts.
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Does no one agree that Star Trek has better sensors? Longer distance and greater information makes me think that Star Trek should win this hands down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNifty
Uh, sensors are useful, to be sure, but Star Wars ships can go thousands of times faster than Star Trek ships. Isn't that a little problem for Trek? I haven't even mentioned galaxy-wide instant communications or superweapons capable of destroying entire solar systems. It wouldn't be a fight, but a massacre.
I apologise for not specifying. I meant "wins hands down this category."
And Star Wars communications are bad quality, and easier to disrupt than Star Trek**. Communications just go further and faster in Star Wars.
**Nevermind, the inability to establish communications is a sacred cow of the franchise for the purposes of plot.
Now, I'm nowhere near to being a Star Trek fanboy (in fact, I think it's the most overrated franchise ever), but in the ST vs SW debate I would actually argue the Enterprise D alone could take on an entire fleet of star destroyers, complete with the TIE fighters and everything, if the movies are meant to be taken as a realistic representation.
The reason - fights in Star Trek take place at distances of hundreds of thousands kilometres.
Fights in Star Wars obviously take place at distances of hundreds of metres, and the pilots actually manouver largely on sight (can be easily seen in New Hope during the attack on the first death star)!
Ergo, a Star Trek ship would take down an entire fleet before said fleet even approached into firing range. Also, while I don't know what subluminal speeds SW ships can reach, but while in combat they manouver quite slowly. ST ships, not so much.
This said, I think StarCraft would actually fare quite well against the Star Wars universe, or, more precisely, the Zerg would.
First, would the Jedi/Sith have the ability to emulate the powers of Dark Templar? If not, well, goodbye, Star Wars, hello, swarm.
Even if they were able to kill off cerebrates permanently, Star Wars is just not equipped to take on a swarm consisting of trillions of beings. The Zerg would win by sheer numbers. Even if a TIE fighter was able to take down one hundred mutalisks before being destroyed (and I think it could consider itself lucky if it got more than a couple), the Zerg would still prevail.
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