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Old 02-09-2008, 03:48 PM   Top  -  End  -  #1
Eighth_Seraph
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Default [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes


As the Avatar project has exchanged leadership and expanded from the creation of the bending classes into the design of an entire setting, it's become very clear that the magical and quasi-magical abilities of the PHB base classes do not fit the Avatar world. As such, new ways to represent these classes are needed. Specifically, the Ranger, Paladin, and Monk need to go. The Ranger and Monk, at least, need to be replaced with non-magical variants.

The purpose of this thread is to create and refine these classes, as well as make a list of non-magical classes from splatbooks that can be applied to the setting. And with that, we can get started. Here are the precedents we need to account for so far in the show.So let's get started then, eh?
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Water, Earth, Fire, and Air: Benders of the Avatar world
Monks and Rangers for a non-magical world
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Edition Wars and Nerd Rage destroyed Rome. Ceasar died because he was a crappy DM.
Avatar By the amazing Mephibosheth

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Old 02-09-2008, 03:49 PM   Top  -  End  -  #2
Eighth_Seraph
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

The Ranger

Stalwart warriors and hunters in the wilderness, rangers are known for their ease in traversing difficult or seemingly impossible terrain and martial prowess. The outlands and wastelands and jungles, where contemporary knowledge fails and soldiers fear to tread, where the terrain is more deadly than any assassin and the elements are in their primal forms; these are the ranger's turf. He knows the wilderness as if it were his home (and, indeed, it often is) and he knows his prey in deadly detail.

Adventures - A ranger often accepts the role of protector, aiding those who live in or travel through the woods.In addition, rangers carry grudges or special training against specific warriors and looks for opportunities to find and destroy them. He may also adventure for all the reasons that a fighter does.
Characteristics - A ranger can use a variety of weapons and is quite capable in combat. His skills allow him to survive in the wilderness, to find his prey, and to avoid detection. He also has special knowledge of certain fighting organizations, which makes it easier for him to find and defeat such foes. Finally, a ranger has such knowledge and experience of nature that he can find and apply natural herbs ranging from home remedies to deadly poisons.
Alignment - Rangers can be of any alignment. Most are good, and such rangers usually function as protectors of the wild areas. In this role, a ranger seeks out and destroys creatures and people that threaten the wilderness. Good rangers also protect those who travel through the wilderness, sometimes as unseen guardians. Many rangers are also chaotic, preferring to follow the ebb and flow of nature of their own heart instead of rigid rules. Evil ranger, though rare, are much to be feared. They revel in nature's thoughtless cruelty and seek to emulate her most fearsome predators.
Background - Some rangers gain their training as part of special military teams, but most learned their skills from solitary masters who accepted them as students and and assistants. The ranger of a particular master may count themselves as allies, or they may be rivals for the status of best student and thus rightful heir to their master's fame. Rangers are also commonly hired as mercenaries for their ability to track opponents quickly over long distances.
Nation - Rangers come from any nation and often view themselves as independent from them, since nature spans the world and belongs to no one. That being said, Air Nomads often take levels in ranger to assist them in their travels and survive their endless voyages throughout the world.
Role - The ranger's best role is that of a scout and secondary combatant. Without a fighter's heavy armor or the resilience of a barbarian, the ranger should focus on opportunistic and ranged attacks. When in combat against a favored enemy, however, rangers can quickly turn the tide of a battle.
Abilities - Dexterity is important for a ranger both because he tends to wear light armor and because several ranger skills are based on that ability. Strength is important for rangers that focus on melee combat. Several important ranger skills, such as Survival and Knowledge (nature) are based on Wisdom, meaning that the trademark abilities Track and Wilderness Lore are also dependent upon it.

Hit Die - d8
Class skills - Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill points at 1st level - (6 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level - 6 + Int modifier.

The Ranger
LevelBase Attack BonusFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSpecialDefense bonus
1st
+1
+2
+2
+0
Favored Environment, Track, Wild Empathy, Wilderness Lore
+6
2nd
+2
+3
+3
+0
Favored Enemy, Combatstyle
+6
3rd
+3
+3
+3
+1
Endurance
+7
4th
+4
+4
+4
+1
Balanced Combatstyle
+7
5th
+5
+4
+4
+1
2nd Specialization
+7
6th
+6/+1
+5
+5
+2
Improved Combatstyle
+8
7th
+7/+2
+5
+5
+2
Woodland Stride
+8
8th
+8/+3
+6
+6
+2
Swift Tracker
+8
9th
+9/+4
+6
+6
+3
Evasion
+9
10th
+10/+5
+7
+7
+3
3rd Specialization
+9
11th
+11/+6/+1
+7
+7
+3
Greater Combatstyle
+9
12th
+12/+7/+2
+8
+8
+4
 
+10
13th
+13/+8/+3
+8
+8
+4
Camouflage
+10
14th
+14/+9/+4
+9
+9
+4
 
+10
15th
+15/+10/+5
+9
+9
+5
4th Specialization
+11
16th
+16/11/+6/+1
+10
+10
+5
Combatstyle Mastery
+11
17th
+17/+12/+7/+2
+10
+10
+5
Hide in Plain Sight
+11
18th
+18/+13/+8/+3
+11
+11
+6
 
+12
19th
+19/+14/+9/+4
+11
+11
+6
 
+12
20th
+20/+15/+10/+5
+12
+12
+6
5th Specialization
+12

Class Features

Weapon and armor proficiencies - A ranger is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor and shields (except tower shields).
Favored Environment - At 1st level, a ranger may select a natural environment from among those given on Table: Ranger Favored Environments. Due to the ranger's experience in that environment, he gains a +2 bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills in that environment. He also gains the same bonus on Knowledge (nature) checks made in association with that environment (or on Knowledge (dungeoneering) checks made in association with underground environments, if the ranger has selected underground as a favored environment).
If the ranger chooses desert or forest, he must also choose a climate type, as indicated on the table (either "cold" or "temperate or warm" for desert, or "cold or temperate" or "warm" for forest).
Favored Enemy (Ex) - At 2nd level, a ranger may select a group or organization to specialize in opposing. The ranger gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against creatures of this type. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.
This ability can affect groups such as Fire Nation infantry, Dai Li agents, members of a specific mercenary group, Water Tribe waterbenders, martial artists of a specific style, or other groups of opponents with similar fighting styles, as displayed on the table below.
Specialization - At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (at 10th, 15th, and 20th level), the ranger may select an additional favored environment or favored enemy from those given on their respective tables and gains an identical bonus on the appropriate checks in that environment or against that opponent. In addition, at each such interval, the bonuses in any one specialization (including the one just selected, if so desired) increase by 2. For example, a 5th-level ranger has two favored environments. In one he has a +4 bonus on the appropriate skill checks, and in the other he has a +2 bonus. At 10th level, he has three favored environments, and he gains an additional +2 bonus, which he can allocate to any of his three favored environments. Thus, his bonuses could be either +4, +4, and +2 or +6,+2, and +2. Also, if a Ranger is applying his skills against a favored enemy while within his favored environment, the ranger applies whichever skill bonus is greater adds half of the lower bonus to it.
Wilderness Lore - A ranger may use his knowledge and experience in the natural environment to identify plants with uses both medicinal and poisonous. Whenever a ranger uses the Survival skill to forage for food, he may also make a Knowledge (nature) check to identify herbs with useful properties. If the Knowledge check exceeds the DC of each herb and if it is present in the area the ranger searches through, the ranger may gather it and apply it as noted in each herb's description.
Track - A ranger gains Track as a bonus feat.
Wild Empathy (Ex) -A ranger can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check to improve the attitude of a person. The ranger rolls 1d20 and adds his ranger level and his Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.
To use wild empathy, the ranger and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal visibility conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute, but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.
Endurance - A ranger gains Endurance as a bonus feat at 3rd level.
Woodland Stride (Ex) - Starting at 7th level, a ranger may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at his normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment.
Swift Tracker (Ex) - Beginning at 8th level, a ranger can move at his normal speed while following tracks without taking the normal -5 penalty. He takes only a -10 penalty (instead of the normal -20) when moving at up to twice normal speed while tracking.
Evasion (Ex) - At 9th level, a ranger can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the ranger is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless ranger does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Camouflage (Ex) - A ranger of 13th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex) - While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

Combat styles - At 2nd level, a ranger must select pne combat style to pursue from among the list below. This choice affects the character’s class features but does not restrict his selection of feats or special abilities in any way. The combat style treats the rangers as having feats, even if he does not have the prerequisites for them.
The benefits of the ranger’s chosen style apply only when he wears light or no armor. He loses all benefits of his combat style when wearing medium or heavy armor. Should the ranger already have a feat when he would earn it from his combat style, he may instead take another feat to which he has the prerequisites in its place.

Spoiler


Favored Enemies List
Spoiler

Favored Environments List
Spoiler

Knowledge (Nature)
Spoiler

Herb List
Spoiler


New Feats
Spoiler
__________________
Water, Earth, Fire, and Air: Benders of the Avatar world
Monks and Rangers for a non-magical world
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKL View Post
Edition Wars and Nerd Rage destroyed Rome. Ceasar died because he was a crappy DM.
Avatar By the amazing Mephibosheth

Last edited by Eighth_Seraph : 08-12-2008 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 02-09-2008, 03:52 PM   Top  -  End  -  #3
Eighth_Seraph
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

The Monk
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Hit Die - d8
Class Skills
The monk’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill points at 1st Level: (4 + Intelligence modifier) x 4.
Skill points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Intelligence modifier.

The Monk
LevelBase Attack BonusFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSpecialStances Known
1st
+1
+2
+2
+0
Enhanced Strike, Combat technique, Style Training
1
2nd
+2
+3
+3
+0
Style Feat
2
3rd
+3
+3
+3
+1
Still Mind
2
4th
+4
+4
+4
+1
2
5th
+5
+4
+4
+1
Purity of Body
3
6th
+6/+1
+5
+5
+2
Style Feat
3
7th
+7/+2
+5
+5
+2
Uncanny Dodge
3
8th
+8/+3
+6
+6
+2
 
3
9th
+9/+4
+6
+6
+3
4
10th
+10/+5
+7
+7
+3
4
11th
+11/+6/+1
+7
+7
+3
Diamond Body
4
12th
+12/+7/+2
+8
+8
+4
Style Feat
4
13th
+13/+8/+3
+8
+8
+4
5
14th
+14/+9/+4
+9
+9
+4
Improved Uncanny Dodge
5
15th
+15/+10/+5
+9
+9
+5
5
16th
+16/11/+6/+1
+10
+10
+5
5
17th
+17/+12/+7/+2
+10
+10
+5
5
18th
+18/+13/+8/+3
+11
+11
+6
Style Feat
5
19th
+19/+14/+9/+4
+11
+11
+6
5
20th
+20/+15/+10/+5
+12
+12
+6
6

Style Abilities
Spoiler

Enhanced Strike Damage
Spoiler



Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with the club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, eskrima, javelin, quarterstaff, shuriken, sling, and any style weapons (see Style Training, below). Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields. When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her Enhanced Strike ability and possibly some style abilities.


Style Training: At 1st level, a monk chooses a martial art or style to follow, gaining a +2 competence bonus on a skill associated with her chosen style, as well as adding it to her class skill list. The monk’s style also determines other factors, such as damage done by her Enhanced Strike ability, weapon proficiencies (to an extent), and which bonus feats the monk receives at first, second, and sixth levels. If a monk already has a bonus feat provided by her style training, she may instead gain any other feat for which she qualifies in its place.

Styles are broken down into light, balanced and heavy styles in terms of Enhanced Strike damage. Further, the benefits granted by each style depend on what type of styles they are. Style types stack if any abilities grant similar bonuses.

Also, most monks apply their Wisdom as a bonus to armor class. Specific styles, however, may apply Intelligence or Charisma modifiers instead, reflecting an analytical or impulsive approach to fighting, respectively. Intelligence-based styles are labeled Rational, while Charisma-based styles are labeled Vagrant.


Enhanced Strike (Ex): At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of feats and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons (though not crafting bonuses, of course).

A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, though the damage of individual strikes depends largely on her fighting style.

Stances - A 1st-level martial artist knows one stance from his chosen style. At 2nd, 5th, 9th, and 20th levels, you learn an additional stance, either from your chosen style or any of its aspects. For example, a martial artist of the Hand and Foot style may choose stances from Agile, Evasive, Quick, and Strong styles at the appropriate levels. You can enter a stance or change stances as a swift action. Stances are extraordinary abilities unless otherwise noted.

Unarmored AC Bonus: When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC.

Still Mind (Ex): A monk of 3rd level or higher gains a +4 bonus on saving throws against fear or mind-affecting effects.

Purity of Body (Ex): At 5th level, a monk gains a +4 to saving throws against disease.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Beginning at 7th level, a monk studying an style retains his Dexterity bonus to AC even when flat-footed.

If a monk already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Diamond Body (Ex): At 11th level, a monk gains a +4 bonus on saving throws against poisons of all kinds.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Beginning at 14th level, a monk can no longer be flanked.


Agile Style Abilities
Spoiler

Contemplative Style Abilities (Note: not meant for the Avatar setting)
Spoiler

Defensive Style Abilities
Spoiler

Evasive Style Abilities
Spoiler

Quick Style Abilities
Spoiler

Resilient Style Abilties
Spoiler

Strong Style Abilities
Spoiler



Light Styles
Cobra Strike
Spoiler


Balanced Styles
Denying Stance
Spoiler

Hand and Foot
Spoiler



Heavy Styles
Overwhelming Attack (In Progress)
Spoiler

Passive Way
Spoiler
__________________
Water, Earth, Fire, and Air: Benders of the Avatar world
Monks and Rangers for a non-magical world
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKL View Post
Edition Wars and Nerd Rage destroyed Rome. Ceasar died because he was a crappy DM.
Avatar By the amazing Mephibosheth

Last edited by Eighth_Seraph : 08-05-2008 at 09:42 PM.
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Old 02-09-2008, 03:55 PM   Top  -  End  -  #4
Eighth_Seraph
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

Here is the first of my ultimate styles, mean to be match the power of the average ToB class. Heavily inspired by this PrC by Rolaran.

Ansatsuken (Ryu, Ken, and Akuma from Street Fighters)
Spoiler
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Water, Earth, Fire, and Air: Benders of the Avatar world
Monks and Rangers for a non-magical world
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKL View Post
Edition Wars and Nerd Rage destroyed Rome. Ceasar died because he was a crappy DM.
Avatar By the amazing Mephibosheth

Last edited by Eighth_Seraph : 08-07-2008 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 02-09-2008, 04:27 PM   Top  -  End  -  #5
ErrantX
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

You posted the Ranger twice, Eighth Seraph

Might wanna erase one of em.

-X
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Old 02-09-2008, 04:38 PM   Top  -  End  -  #6
jagadaishio
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

I take it from the fact that you posted this modified monk that you don't plan on using Lord Tartaraus's martial artist class?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63272
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Old 02-09-2008, 06:28 PM   Top  -  End  -  #7
Ceiling009
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

I think either class sets work, Lord T's is something that would definitely destroy many of the melee standards set in the PHB; which from all the "Fighter Fixes" I've read about, is something that's probably needed. The Fighter class isn't bad in itself, but the options presented need a severe overhaul, while the chassis of the class just needs to be upgraded slightly. Eighth's is another variant where there isn't one end all martial class, like Lord T's...
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Old 02-09-2008, 06:46 PM   Top  -  End  -  #8
FlyMolo
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

There's no fighter upgrade/Avatar version in here, which is a pity, because that monk fix is AMAZING. It's literally the best monk fix I've ever seen. It's also exactly what I wanted out of the monk. A little heavy on the documentation, but SO COOL!!!!
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Old 02-09-2008, 07:11 PM   Top  -  End  -  #9
Uthug
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

I agree; however, are these classes supposed to be able to keep up with benders of the same ECL? They don't seem able to. I sort of like Lord Tartaraus's martial artist as an alternative; seems much more able to attempt to keep up with the benders.
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Old 02-09-2008, 10:29 PM   Top  -  End  -  #10
Eighth_Seraph
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErrantX View Post
You posted the Ranger twice, Eighth Seraph
Er. I meant to do that. Totally. It was, uh, a test. You passed. Congrats.
Nice catch, X.

Quote:
I take it from the fact that you posted this modified monk that you don't plan on using Lord Tartaraus's martial artist class?
I never really like Tataraus' martial artist classes, and I made that clear as they were being designed. I did the monk redux in order to represent the large variation in martial arts and apply to a largely eastern setting where martial arts are prominent. It's a very untested class, though, and it'll need some playtesting and number crunching before it's ready for use. I would be more than happy to take a synopsis of different martial arts and fighting styles and try to represent them with the new class.

In terms of keeping up with the benders' power; Meph set up a new set of arena battles for us to test these in party battles alongside the benders. I'm more worried about the Ranger being underpowered than the monk, though. If you're up for a playtest, there should be a link at the main hub.

Quote:
There's no fighter upgrade/Avatar version in here, which is a pity,
Well, it's debatable whether a fighter fix is really necessary, since I statted up Sokka's master as a level 20 fighter in the original thread to test it, and it turned out pretty well. I lost by one attack in the playtest against a level 20 waterbender. Of course, I got beat by Wave/Freeze. 'Nuff said.

Any ideas or concerns on balance or how to make the monk tables flow better?
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Water, Earth, Fire, and Air: Benders of the Avatar world
Monks and Rangers for a non-magical world
Quote:
Originally Posted by KKL View Post
Edition Wars and Nerd Rage destroyed Rome. Ceasar died because he was a crappy DM.
Avatar By the amazing Mephibosheth
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Old 02-09-2008, 10:58 PM   Top  -  End  -  #11
Lord Tataraus
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceiling009 View Post
I think either class sets work, Lord T's is something that would definitely destroy many of the melee standards set in the PHB; which from all the "Fighter Fixes" I've read about, is something that's probably needed. The Fighter class isn't bad in itself, but the options presented need a severe overhaul, while the chassis of the class just needs to be upgraded slightly. Eighth's is another variant where there isn't one end all martial class, like Lord T's...
Technically, my classes are the variant since they are basically non-cannon. These are the official classes. Some of the largest participants in the project preferred to keep extremely conservative when it comes to extrapolating from the canon. Which is fine, though not particularly my style.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uthug View Post
I agree; however, are these classes supposed to be able to keep up with benders of the same ECL? They don't seem able to. I sort of like Lord Tartaraus's martial artist as an alternative; seems much more able to attempt to keep up with the benders.
That is a very good question, I know a fighter variant needs to be made to stay on par with benders, other than that these need to be playtested. (which I think might be happening relatively soon)

So, any ideas on a good fighter variant Eighth? Or are you going to stick with making uber feats? If the latter, that's fine but it is easier sometimes to just make a new class since some of the stuff will be so awesome all fighters would take it and at that point you might as well make it a class feature.

By the way Uthug, I like to keep my name 2 letters off from the underworld one is just too close to be comfortable, I don't want to step on Hades' toes too much
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Old 02-09-2008, 11:12 PM   Top  -  End  -  #12
Eighth_Seraph
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

I've seen some decent fighter fixes over time on the forums, including one that really caught my eye. I'll try to dig it up so you guys can take a look at it. My main concerns for the existing classes right now is making a one-handed and two-handed melee combat styles for the ranger, and organizing the monk to make it an easier read. Ideas on either of this.
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Old 02-10-2008, 01:23 AM   Top  -  End  -  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eighth_Seraph View Post
I've seen some decent fighter fixes over time on the forums, including one that really caught my eye. I'll try to dig it up so you guys can take a look at it. My main concerns for the existing classes right now is making a one-handed and two-handed melee combat styles for the ranger, and organizing the monk to make it an easier read. Ideas on either of this.
Perhaps for the one-handed style you could either include something for the use and mastery of shields in the off hand, or make some sort of a set of homebrew feats for the use of free hands in combat (e.g. arm locks, grappling, some sort of parry).

As for the two-handed weapon style, you could give them Favored Power Attack from Complete Warrior.

As an alternative to these fighting styles built as a list of feats, you could just assign abilities in place of feats where no pre-existing feats existed. That would allow from somewhat more unique fighting styles that fighters would not be able to duplicate.

You could also have each style be a sort of generalized Weapon Style feat which allows for the gaining of new abilities based on your BAB or your ranger level. Since a lot of what I said is ideas which contradict each other, I hope that you were able to at least get something out of this which helped.
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Old 02-10-2008, 08:34 PM   Top  -  End  -  #14
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

Huh. I like the idea of giving homebrewed abilities to the ranger at different stages in his combatstyle progression. Before we give either class more abilities, though, it's important that we playtest the existing ones. I've put a link to the new arena in the OP. The revamped Ranger and Monk as well as the PHB Fighter and Rogue are needed to test their usefulness and balance alongside benders in combat.

Playtesting Arena: Round II

While we're waiting to get results, though, I'm completely stumped on feats for one-handed melee and two-handed melee combatstyles for the Ranger. In the old thread, it was suggested that the styles be broken up into more specific strategies (sundering, multi-cleaving styles, etc.). What do you guys think?
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Old 02-10-2008, 09:48 PM   Top  -  End  -  #15
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

You could go the Cleave and Great Cleave route with the two-handed weapon tree. As for the one-handed weapon, the only real value to using one would be the use of a shield. For that reason, you should try to look into feats dealing with shields, rather than augmenting the one-handed weapon directly. There are some feats for that right here on the site:

http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tAI...7MFFjrPPQ.html
http://www.giantitp.com/articles/ruI...FBCOi5fK8.html
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Old 02-12-2008, 11:29 AM   Top  -  End  -  #16
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

My initial impression of both these classes is extremely favorable. Nothing really jumps out at me as a source of cheese (always a good thing) and a lot of the abilities sound interesting. I'll have to give some thought to homebrewed class abilities that can be granted via Ranger combat styles.

At this point, my only comments are more organizational than substantive. First, I think you should explicitly state in the Ranger Combat Style explanation that "Balanced Combat Style," "Improved Combat Style," "Greater Combat Style," and "Combat Style Mastery" all grant an additional feat from the style's progression. It's pretty easy to figure out given that there are 5 abilities with the words "Combat Style" in their name and 5 feats on each list, but it's always good to be clear. Perhaps format the style lists like this:

Two-weapon melee
Combat Style - Two-weapon fighting
Balanced Combat Style - Two-weapon defense
Improved Combat Style - Improved Two-weapon fighting
Greater Combat Style - Improved Two-weapon defense
Combat Style Mastery - Greater Two-weapon fighting, Greater Two-weapon defense

My second comment concerns the monk styles. Specifically, the different classifications of styles are a little bit confusing. Perhaps if you grouped all the classification descriptions together and had a few sentences explaining what they mean it would be easier to decipher. Again, I can figure out what you mean, but it's always good to be clear. The idea is brilliant, and I really like the variety it brings to the monk class. These are shaping up to be great additions to the setting.

Edit: I think I see what was confusing me. You have two list of style categories. The one directly beneath the class table lists evasive, mobile, quick, hard, and resiliant styles. The second, located at the end of the description, lists agile, evasive, hard, quick, and resiliant. I think these are duplicate lists, intended for clarification, with one containing a description of the abilities and the other containing a table. I was confused because of the positioning of the lists and the name discrepency between mobile and agile. Perhaps including the table and the description in the same place would make this clearer.

Another thing that has come to my attention recently is the high prerequisites for the Chi Disruption and Stunning Fist. I propose reducing the BAB requirement for Stunning Fist to +4, BAB +6 for Chi Disruption, and +9 for Improved Chi Disruption. Because the save DC's for these abilities are based on character level, I don't think that allowing these feats at lower levels is unreasonable. For reference, the feats can be found here. What says the playground?

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Old 02-12-2008, 02:32 PM   Top  -  End  -  #17
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

I like lowering requirements on feats like that. I support it.

I am, however, not sure why the combat styles aren't finished. I know this was an issue before, I'm sure it was due to the fact that Eighth Seraph didn't want to set up a Cleave/Sunder progression or something along those lines. But I think that's what should be set up.

Example:
One-handed:
1) Combat Expertise
2) Combat Reflexes
3) Improved Disarm
4) Improved Combat Expertise (Complete Warrior)
5) Improved Feint

Two-handed:
1) Power Attack
2) Cleave
3) Favored Power Attack (Complete Warrior)
4) Great Cleave
5) Favored Power Attack (pick another one)

I dunno, I think that being moderately more generic in this sense might be good, most two-handed weapon fighters take the Power Attack -> Great Cleave route for example. Just something to think about.

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Old 02-12-2008, 05:06 PM   Top  -  End  -  #18
Eighth_Seraph
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mephibosheth
My initial impression of both these classes is extremely favorable. Nothing really jumps out at me as a source of cheese (always a good thing) and a lot of the abilities sound interesting.
Alright! My primary and secondary aims in creating these classes have been accomplished, then.

I'll get right on fixing all of the organizational problems between today and tomorrow. I'm going to integrate all of the monk style tables into a single table, then make the spoiler tags with a couple sentences of fluff text and some explanations. Does that sound about right?

Quote:
Two-handed:
1) Power Attack
2) Cleave
3) Favored Power Attack (Complete Warrior)
4) Great Cleave
5) Favored Power Attack (pick another one)
Hm. It covers all the basics for the ranger and allows for individual rangers to fine-tune their builds. I like it! I'm a bit worried about Great Cleave's reputation for semi-uselessness, though...

Quote:
One-handed:
1) Combat Expertise
2) Combat Reflexes
3) Improved Disarm
4) Improved Combat Expertise (Complete Warrior)
5) Improved Feint
You had me, up until Improved Feint. It just doesn't seem like a worthy level 16 feat. Is there anything from Complete Warrior that would work better?

By the by, I also support changing the pre-reqs. I'm actually considering making Ty Lee's martial art into a monk fighting style, but am weighing it carefully since we've proven that she can be represented by available means.
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Old 02-12-2008, 06:25 PM   Top  -  End  -  #19
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

How about:

Quote:
One-handed:
1) Combat Expertise
2) Combat Reflexes
3) Quick Draw
4) Improved Disarm
5) Improved Combat Expertise (Complete Warrior)
-X
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Old 02-13-2008, 10:45 PM   Top  -  End  -  #20
Eighth_Seraph
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

Alright, I've taken all of the comments you guys have given me and done my best to work with them.

First off, the monk tables should now be legible. Huzzah. I'll work on the fluff for the style categories tomorrow, as reworking large tables is draining work. I've also added X's Two-handed Melee combat style for the ranger and reworked the format as per Meph's suggestions. I'm still apprehensive about the One-handed Melee combat style, but I'll poke around some borrowed sourcebooks for something that fits.

I would still love for someone to playtest either of these classes...
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Old 02-14-2008, 12:09 PM   Top  -  End  -  #21
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

How about including the revised version of Deflect Arrows in the one-handed melee style. A lot of characters in this Avatarverse seem to have that feat. Another option would be to include some of the tactical feats you designed for Piandao. Maybe altering the prerequisites for Balanced Blade to allow its use with any one-handed melee weapon and giving that as part of the style?
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Old 02-14-2008, 11:00 PM   Top  -  End  -  #22
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

I'm apprehensive about doing that, since I somehow can't see club or hammer being used that gracefully; the feat was very much designed for slashing weapon builds. In any case, giving a [Style] feat as a bonus feat seems too restricting to me in terms of builds. What can be done to make a hammer-and-medium-shield style work alongside a graceful sword-style? Maybe a sword-and-board Combat Style tree is in order?

On the other hand, shields have never really fit the ranger paradigm...
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Old 02-14-2008, 11:49 PM   Top  -  End  -  #23
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

Rangers seem more like a "blades or bow" style class

Leave clubs, hammers (prefferably, ALL blunt weapons), and shields to the Fighters. What else would they be good for then?

I saw a really interesting Archer base class a while ago that may fit the Avatar setting after amputating magical influence and a bit of tweeking: Shadowfoot's Archer
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Old 02-15-2008, 06:26 PM   Top  -  End  -  #24
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

Well, a large number of the feats homebrewed for the class would make good additions to a Hunter Ranger build, but I don't think the class as a whole would apply to the Avatar setting as we've built it. Of course, any player could ask for DM approval to play it anyway, and it shouldn't be a problem.

Now, I've gotten an idea in regards to the ranger. What if we traded out two or three of the Favored Enemies in exchange for Favored Environment? I've always thought that specializing in an environment fit the ranger's flavor much better, but was nowhere near as useful in combat. My current idea is to switch move the first level Favored Enemy to second level, and put a favored environment at first level; then allow a player to choose whether to specialize in a single enemy, environment, or branch out in either direction for the rest of his levels. Thoughts on this?
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Old 02-15-2008, 08:32 PM   Top  -  End  -  #25
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eighth_Seraph View Post
*snip*
Well, it's debatable whether a fighter fix is really necessary, since I statted up Sokka's master as a level 20 fighter in the original thread to test it, and it turned out pretty well. I lost by one attack in the playtest against a level 20 waterbender. Of course, I got beat by Wave/Freeze. 'Nuff said.?


In other news, I'm really pleased about this monk fix here. I cannot stress how happy I am with this. It's everything the monk should have been, but awesomer.
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Old 02-15-2008, 10:25 PM   Top  -  End  -  #26
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

there needs to be a better bonus other than skill checks. At least some bonus AC when fighting in their favored environment?

But your right. Having a favored enemy (even when narrowed to Human(Air Nomads, Fire Nation, etc) is just too broad for the Avatar setting.
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Old 02-16-2008, 11:10 AM   Top  -  End  -  #27
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eighth_Seraph View Post
Well, a large number of the feats homebrewed for the class would make good additions to a Hunter Ranger build, but I don't think the class as a whole would apply to the Avatar setting as we've built it. Of course, any player could ask for DM approval to play it anyway, and it shouldn't be a problem.

Now, I've gotten an idea in regards to the ranger. What if we traded out two or three of the Favored Enemies in exchange for Favored Environment? I've always thought that specializing in an environment fit the ranger's flavor much better, but was nowhere near as useful in combat. My current idea is to switch move the first level Favored Enemy to second level, and put a favored environment at first level; then allow a player to choose whether to specialize in a single enemy, environment, or branch out in either direction for the rest of his levels. Thoughts on this?
It seems to me that there are only three types of enemies in the Avatar setting: Animals, Humans, and Spirits. If I'm wrong, please correct me, but I think that would make favored enemy a very limited ability. For that reason, I rather like the idea of incorporating the favored environment idea. Beyond that, I think that it may be an interesting idea to allow the characters to have a favored weapon group, based on the categories listed here:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/bu...GroupFeats.htm

If, at each level that a ranger would normally choose a favored enemy, it can instead choose from enemy, environ, or weapon group, it would make a much more effective and interesting class to play.
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Old 02-16-2008, 12:13 PM   Top  -  End  -  #28
Eighth_Seraph
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

Hmm...I'm glad that everyone likes the Favored Environment idea, and I'll work on incorporating that right away. As for weapon groups, Jag, I'd rather leave that to the Fighter, if you don't mind. I'm still looking out for that one fighter fix that fits into place here (with all the fixes out there, there's got to be at least one), but I'd like to keep the roles more or less the same.

Now, in regards to Favored Enemy being too restricting in this setting, I might have an idea. See, a bonus against everyone in the Fire Nation seems far too powerful to me, and a bonus against all animals seems nigh impossible in a setting where the Animal type includes things like mongoose dragons, kimodo rhinoceroses, and Shirshu. I'd say that if we made the categories narrower, the ability would serve the purpose it does in standard D&D. Something like this:

Type (Subtype)Type (Subtype)
Animal (mammal)Earth Kingdom (military)
Animal (bird)Earth Kingdom (Dai Li)
Animal (reptile)Air Nomads (airbender)
Animal (aquatic)Swamp (waterbender)
Magical BeastSun Warrior (firebender)
VerminSun Warrior (warrior)
Fire Nation (firebender)Monk (agile)
Fire Nation (military)Monk (evasive)
Water Tribe (waterbender)Monk (hard)
Water Tribe (military)Monk (quick)
Earth Kingdom (earthbender)Monk (resilient)
RaiderProwler

This would make the ability considerably less powerful, and we'll have to define Fire Nation military, for example, as anyone trained to be part of the Firelord's armies and state that for any creature that falls into more than one category the ranger uses the highest modifier. What do you guys think?
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Old 02-16-2008, 12:57 PM   Top  -  End  -  #29
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eighth_Seraph View Post
Type (Subtype)Type (Subtype)
Animal (mammal)Earth Kingdom (military)
Animal (bird)Earth Kingdom (Dai Li)
Animal (reptile)Air Nomads (airbender)
Animal (aquatic)Swamp (waterbender)
Magical BeastSun Warrior (firebender)
VerminSun Warrior (warrior)
Fire Nation (firebender)Monk (agile)
Fire Nation (military)Monk (evasive)
Water Tribe (waterbender)Monk (hard)
Water Tribe (military)Monk (quick)
Earth Kingdom (earthbender)Monk (resilient)

This would make the ability considerably less powerful, and we'll have to define Fire Nation military, for example, as anyone trained to be part of the Firelord's armies and state that for any creature that falls into more than one category the ranger uses the highest modifier. What do you guys think?
This is an awesome idea. but what about just a regular "human" for people that don't fall into those. I mean, someone can be from a nation but not be a bender or in the military, or by military do you mean people that use weapons?
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Old 02-16-2008, 10:08 PM   Top  -  End  -  #30
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Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

By military, I mean anyone trained to be a soldier in the military. The idea is to target similarities in how people move and think. I got the idea when I thought of a tournament I went to, when I saw that the guy I would spar in the first round had "Red Dragon Karate" on the back of his uniform. I assumed he'd fight like with a hand-heavy, block-and-counter style (my specialty), but he turned out to be all dodging and made mincemeat out of me. Therefore, understanding the way an opponent fights can grant bonuses which may be vital to defeating him.

I know that this system leaves huge gaps for self-trained people like Jet who, quite frankly, don't belong to any particular training organization, but I can't think of any way to do that without getting into specifics, like a ranger specializing into hunting down Jet's freedom fighters. Before we get into the specifics on how to make the system work, I'd like to know if people like it. What do you guys think?
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