I keep on debating about Dark Knight Strikes Again. I've heard it's horrible, but I kindof want to see what all the fuss is about.
On a similar note, one of the worst moments in comics (mainly because it ruined DKR for me, which I had loved and re-read multiple times) was the part in DRK where
Spoiler
Batman shoots and kills a guy. Seriously, what? He's confronting some mutants who have kidnapped a baby, and he freaking shoots and kills one of them. It not only goes against the entire Batman mithos, it also takes away from the awesomeness that was the scene with the Joker later on.
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Spoiler
DARTH VADER: ...there will be a substantial reward for the one who finds the Millennium Falcon. You are free to use any methods necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegrations!
BOBA FETT: As you wish. But When Boba Fett said "As you wish," what he really meant was "I love you."
I keep on debating about Dark Knight Strikes Again. I've heard it's horrible, but I kindof want to see what all the fuss is about.
On a similar note, one of the worst moments in comics (mainly because it ruined DKR for me, which I had loved and re-read multiple times) was the part in DRK where
Spoiler
Batman shoots and kills a guy. Seriously, what? He's confronting some mutants who have kidnapped a baby, and he freaking shoots and kills one of them. It not only goes against the entire Batman mithos, it also takes away from the awesomeness that was the scene with the Joker later on.
Batman didn't shoot anyone, he grabed a guy from behind who paniced and accidently shot his buddy. The fact that Batman just let this happen knowing full well that it would is kinda disturbing though.
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I am of course referering to All Star Batman and Robin aka ASSBAR by Frank Miller.
The only way I know of to extract any entertainment value from ASSBAR is to imagine the dialect being delivered in the voices of Adam West and Burt Ward.
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The only way I know of to extract any entertainment value from ASSBAR is to imagine the dialect being delivered in the voices of Adam West and Burt Ward.
As great as that is, some entertainment is to be had simply from reading choice panels for free.
The lemonade line, alone...
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I thought the consensus now was that all of All-Star Batman and Robin is a very intentional self-parody of Frank Miller's writing style? I've also heard that the more recent issues are of a marginally better quality. Don't get me wrong, I wish that ASB had taken the same path as All-Star Superman and simply been interesting retellings of classic stories, but as it is everything in it's tongue-in-cheek.
The Dark Knight Strikes Again is the same way; Frank Miller wrote it because people begged for a sequel to DKR for so long that he finally caved, but instead of playing it straight he decided to mock the way comics had become in the interim. People looked at DKR and thought it was good because of all the violence and overall dark mood and comics as a whole drifted in that direction. Frank Miller took the elements of Dark Age comics and mixed it into his new story to show how absurd the whole concept of "dark and gritty" just for the sake of "dark and gritty" was.
I tempted to say "I did it Thirty-Five Minutes ago," just to screw with the people.
Though honestly lets have some less BND hate. Not that I like it in the slightest but there's plenty of crap DC and Marvel have pulled lately to whine about. Anyone here read Death of the New Gods, now that's awful and didn't even have decent art.
My second personal worst moment was the death of Peter's aunborn baby. A real moment where I wanted to go back in time and rip the balls off whoever had the idea to have the unborn baby POISONED and killed. I know a lot of people wanted status quo at the office, but killing a baby with poison in the mothers womb has got to be the sickest think a comic writer can do. A miscarage would have still be tragic, but understandable since it happens in real life. But poisoning it crosses too manny lines.
What kind of sick and twisted world are you being forced to live in? In my perception the baby lived and they decided to advance the storyline 15 years and Peter and MJ are living happily together with their teenage daughter May Parker and toddler Ben Parker. May has developed powers similar to her father, and has taken up the costume of her "Uncle Ben" (Ben Riley) who died saving her and doing her thing as the Amazing Spider-Girl. I know, it sounds stupid, having the children of well known heroes become title characters of their own as a legacy comic sounds awful, but somehow Amazing Spider-Girl is really really fantastic, to the point that I don't miss that they stopped putting out Amazing Spider-Man for the last six to eight years...
But no, seriously... I grew up with Peter and M.J. married. They were together and that was it. I decided I wanted to get married someday partly because I saw my favorite hero dealing with the ups and downs of marriage. I considered it a gold star that proved forever that Spider-Man was a more interesting hero than so many others. So many other heroes do the tango of gaining, developing and losing love interests. Characters who hold up their own lines tended to go through them at a brisk pace... but to me, Spider-Man's marriage was eternal, and never imagined it could ever go away. Joephisto decided to just [nasty words omitted] all over my childhood...
...which is frustrating, because one of my favorite stories I've never read involves the main romantic pairing losing all memories of their entire relationship, waking up one morning strangers to each other, with no feelings at all for each other, going about their lives as if they had never met one another, and falling right back in love with each other all over again. The potential for that storyline is almost enough to keep me reading, but I have no hope that such a thing will ever occur to them. One More Day was the turning point that got me into DC.
Also, I'm the one person in the world who liked Sins Past, and liked it a LOT. I also think its only flaw was that the twins weren't Peter's own kids like JMS originally intended, and they had to shoehorn in some pretty nasty squick with Gwen's rape... especially since the woman had been legendarily Stuffed in a Fridge already.
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I could get Brand New Day if the reasons for a retcon was simply that too many messy storylines had occured over the years (the Morlun storyline, the Clone Saga, Norman Osborn returning, Peter unmasking himself, etc.) and the Spider-Man story had become unwritable. But the thing I can't swallow is that the whole reason for the retcon was to make Peter a pathetic nerd living in his aunt's basement because "the story was better when Peter was single."
Worse, the way they decided to retcon the story completely invalidates everythign over the past decade or so. AND IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY GODDAM SENSE.
Aunt May gets shot, so Peter makes a deal with the devil to save her. Christ, Peter, do you think May would want you to sacrifice your happiness just to save her?! (At least it should have been Mary Jane who got shot, and Peter decides to sacrifice his life with her in order to save her.) And what was that crap about Doctor Strange and the rest being unable to help him? Doctor Strange can re-write reality by sneezing, for ****'s sake.
What a load of crap.
Last edited by Face Of Evil : 09-11-2008 at 03:25 AM.
Frank Miller took the elements of Dark Age comics and mixed it into his new story to show how absurd the whole concept of "dark and gritty" just for the sake of "dark and gritty" was.
I thought it was pretty clear that Frank Miller LIKES "dark and gritty" for the sake of "dark and gritty".
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I thought it was pretty clear that Frank Miller LIKES "dark and gritty" for the sake of "dark and gritty".
There's usually a lot more behind the "dark and gritty" stuff Frank Miller writes than say, Rob Liefeld.
Speaking of which, obligatory link. The very existence of Rob Liefeld as a professional comic writer and artist, if not the worst moment in comic history, is at least a very dark point.
Batman didn't shoot anyone, he grabed a guy from behind who paniced and accidently shot his buddy. The fact that Batman just let this happen knowing full well that it would is kinda disturbing though.
Nope, go read it again. He grabs one guy from behind who panics and shoots and all that, but one of the mutants grabs the baby, starts yelling "I'll kill it, believe me, I'll do it!" And batman takes the gun, shoots him, and says "I believe you."
Seriously, it sucks, and is horrible, and when a friend first told me about it, I told him he was full of crap, so I went back and re-read it like 5 times, and I can't come up with any other explanation.
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Spoiler
DARTH VADER: ...there will be a substantial reward for the one who finds the Millennium Falcon. You are free to use any methods necessary, but I want them alive. No disintegrations!
BOBA FETT: As you wish. But When Boba Fett said "As you wish," what he really meant was "I love you."
There's usually a lot more behind the "dark and gritty" stuff Frank Miller writes than say, Rob Liefeld.
Speaking of which, obligatory link. The very existence of Rob Liefeld as a professional comic writer and artist, if not the worst moment in comic history, is at least a very dark point.
I take it then you haven't heard of Holy Terror, Batman! In which "The Goddamn ASSBAR Batman" fights Al Qaeda in Gotham. That is not subject matter you take on in a self parody. In fact thats subject matter that I can't get any further into on this board.
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I take it then you haven't heard of Holy Terror, Batman! In which "The Goddamn ASSBAR Batman" fights Al Qaeda in Gotham. That is not subject matter you take on in a self parody. In fact thats subject matter that I can't get any further into on this board.
There is no way that's meant to be serious.
I mean, the name alone...
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I have to agree with Chiasaur, there's no way Miller isn't doing that in a completely humorous light; I mean, you don't go saying some thing's a propaganda piece if you actually want people to take it at face value.
If anything, Miller's decided that he's finally beat the Dark Age satire into the ground and decided to move on to mocking how real-world politics have been incorporated into comics on occasion. As for whether it's an appropriate thing to do... well it's not the first time someone has done it.
The Apocalypse storyline in Ultimate X-Men was absolute crap, but hopefully it won't have any lasting noteriety a la One More Day/Brand New Day.
In terms of what's really had an impact on the industry, I would say the entire Darker and Edgier phase of the early to mid-90's stands out. Especially with anything that revolved around a major storyline that was supposed to change everything forever and obviously wasn't going to. Batman getting crippled would be a good example, but I'll throw in Superman dying as well because, while not gritty, was a blatant attempt at money-grabbing. And a poor one at that. Just a mindless monster without motivation or character pounding its way forward until Superman and it kill each other.
I understand that this is a business, but it's also a medium of entertainment and art. When the business end overshadows the art/entertainment part, everyone loses.
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In terms of what's really had an impact on the industry, I would say the entire Darker and Edgier phase of the early to mid-90's stands out. Especially with anything that revolved around a major storyline that was supposed to change everything forever and obviously wasn't going to. Batman getting crippled would be a good example, but I'll throw in Superman dying as well because, while not gritty, was a blatant attempt at money-grabbing. And a poor one at that. Just a mindless monster without motivation or character pounding its way forward until Superman and it kill each other.
I'm going to argue about Batman getting crippled. That story arc was one large Take That at the portion of fanbase that wanted Batman to be all grim and nasty by breify giving the Batman mantal to a psychotic nutcase with an insane array of various lethal weapons who wanted to kill all the criminals. Just to show everyone how bad that would be.
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There was a Thor comic where Code: Blue go to Asgard to arrest Ulik.
Highlights of this little Gem are
Their female member infiltrating the Rock Troll Caves by putting on a sheet.
"As a competing body-builder I have the most troll-like physique out of all of you." she claims.
One of their team shattering a dude named "Uroc" who was made out of Uru (the same stuff that Thor's hammer is made out of) with what looks to be a 38 calibre pistol.
The head of their team fighting Ulik one on one. Somehow stone survives a bearhug from someone who is nearly as strong as Thor and manages to pull out a grenade and put it Ulik's face. After knocking Ulik over a cliff with a grenade an unharmed Lt Stone pulls out a pistol and aims it at the Rock Troll who has taken blows from Mjolnir. Ulik seems scared and tells Stone to go ahead and kill him. Stone says "You don't understand I am taking you in!" and precedes to read him his Miranda rights (they are in Asgard by the way).
Ulik vows he wont be taken alive and jumps to his (supposed) death.
Last edited by jerichodrumm : 09-12-2008 at 02:32 AM.
The most memorable scene in RAVAGE 2099, and one that completely sums up the unique appeal of the book for me, happened in issue #2. It starts with Ravage tooling down the road in his vintage twentieth century garbage truck—he found it abandoned in a junk yard, apparently in perfect working order, a full tank of gas and the keys in the ignition—and adopted it as his mobile base of operations because, "it's got more power than that plastic crap they make today!" So Ravage is tooling along at maybe 30, 35 miles an hour, eluding the cops who are scouring the city to find him—since he's been framed as a criminal—and who can't seem to locate a big, hulking piece of green metal slowly wending its way through the city streets. As he drives, Ravage muses to himself that he's going to need an edge, something to level the playing field, since he's just one man against a whole army of guys with futuristic weapons. As luck would have it, at that very moment he happens to be passing by a gun shop, and in the window there's a display for "Ultimate Kevlar!" This one-of-a-kind item is so unique and valuable that the proprietor has chosen to put the only existing sample of the stuff in his shop window. "That's it!" says Ravage, who then makes quick work of the wrought-iron bars that are the window's only security system—this being the future and all—and makes off with the one-of-a kind Kevlar. As he makes his way back to his truck, Ravage muses that "This'll make me impervious to all of their lasers and guns and knives." The next panel shows Ravage sewing the Kevlar into the lining of his vest, with a simple needle and thread easily penetrating the stuff—so Ravage is completely bulletproof unless somebody comes at him with a needle...
Last edited by jerichodrumm : 09-12-2008 at 02:42 AM.
On a similar note, one of the worst moments in comics (mainly because it ruined DKR for me, which I had loved and re-read multiple times) was the part in DRK where
Spoiler
Batman shoots and kills a guy. Seriously, what? He's confronting some mutants who have kidnapped a baby, and he freaking shoots and kills one of them. It not only goes against the entire Batman mithos, it also takes away from the awesomeness that was the scene with the Joker later on.
A child's welfare ranks higher on Batman's priority list than his abhorrence for guns. Seems like a perfectly plausible reason for breaking one of his best known taboos.
And because it's so well known, any scene in which we see Batman brandish a gun tends to have an impact. It usually destroys the scene to have him fire it, but having him draw one has a way of draining all certainty and security out of a scene for other characters -- and some readers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunesen
Batman getting crippled would be a good example, but I'll throw in Superman dying as well because, while not gritty, was a blatant attempt at money-grabbing.
Actually, it was an attempt to stall a marriage in the comics so that it would coincide with the one on ABC's The Adventures of Lois and Clarke. Sure, synchronizing those events argues for your point about money-grabbing, but it's also the sort of stunt comic writers get a kick out of, on par with Lee and Kirby being unable to attend the wedding of Reed Richards and Susan Storm.
And as sad as it is to use one character's death to delay a wedding, it's as much a geeky thing to do as it is an exploitative business decision. Actually, since this sort of event can hurt the property's reputation, the former seems more plausible than the latter. I believe it was a bit of both, but the former is still the more believable of the two.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkblade
I'm going to argue about Batman getting crippled.
I believe you make a good case for your argument. The only problem I have with the event is that the contrast between Bruce Wayne's recovery and Barbara Gordon's current state (the result of events that took place in a one-shot story, no less) carry some unfortunate implications.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerichodrumm
Single worst comic moment...Rob Liefeld getting a job at Marvel.
I feel Peter David put this into perspective when he compared him to Ed Wood.
Nah, to my mind, the worst moment in comics history had to be the events leading up to Diamond Distributors' North American monopoly on direct market distribution of comic books.
I believe you make a good case for your argument. The only problem I have with the event is that the contrast between Bruce Wayne's recovery and Barbara Gordon's current state (the result of events that took place in a one-shot story, no less) carry some unfortunate implications.
I always took it as meaning Barbra Gordon no longer wanted to be on the front lines of superhero stuff after she was shot as she was able to be more useful helping lesser heros like Black Canary and Huntress then following around someone like Batman. It made a more interesting character. Bruce's recovery was badly handled all around though.
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Actually, it was an attempt to stall a marriage in the comics so that it would coincide with the one on ABC's The Adventures of Lois and Clarke. Sure, synchronizing those events argues for your point about money-grabbing, but it's also the sort of stunt comic writers get a kick out of, on par with Lee and Kirby being unable to attend the wedding of Reed Richards and Susan Storm.
And as sad as it is to use one character's death to delay a wedding, it's as much a geeky thing to do as it is an exploitative business decision. Actually, since this sort of event can hurt the property's reputation, the former seems more plausible than the latter. I believe it was a bit of both, but the former is still the more believable of the two.
1) I know the "death" of Superman was based on the TV show not wanting the comic character to get married. But it was handled so ineptly and in such a blatantly commercial fashion that I stand by what I said.
It was a multi-series crossover that had nothing more than an extended slugfest. Doomsday never spoke, aloud or internally, he had no motivation, no desire, no plan. There were no secondary plots, no moment of truth for a character, no heroic stand or outthinking the villain because there was no thinking. It was Superman and Doomsday throwing punches until they both dropped dead. The worst kind of stereotypical superhero plot imaginable.
And DC built it up as a major event, put out all the crossover issues and played it up in the media, driving both comic book fans and people that didn't even know stores specializing in comic books exist to buy up all the issues with the hopes that they would be worth a mint later on.
2) I also know Batman being crippled was a Take That to the grim and gritty fad, but again, it's a multi-series crossover built up as a major event before everything reverted to the status quo.
Both of them were business-minded un-events that put the money-making aspect ahead of good story-telling. And they were effective, people talked about them and sales were damn good. So now precedent was set for future events like that. It was a terrible event.
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1) I know the "death" of Superman was based on the TV show not wanting the comic character to get married. But it was handled so ineptly and in such a blatantly commercial fashion that I stand by what I said.
It was a multi-series crossover that had nothing more than an extended slugfest. Doomsday never spoke, aloud or internally, he had no motivation, no desire, no plan. There were no secondary plots, no moment of truth for a character, no heroic stand or outthinking the villain because there was no thinking. It was Superman and Doomsday throwing punches until they both dropped dead. The worst kind of stereotypical superhero plot imaginable.
The worst part is that the entire Justice League besides Superman is taken out in approximately .05 seconds. That annoyed me.
It was still balls-awesome to see Doomsday punch Supergirl's face off, though.
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It hardened me.
It was a multi-series crossover that had nothing more than an extended slugfest. Doomsday never spoke, aloud or internally, he had no motivation, no desire, no plan. There were no secondary plots, no moment of truth for a character, no heroic stand or outthinking the villain because there was no thinking. It was Superman and Doomsday throwing punches until they both dropped dead. The worst kind of stereotypical superhero plot imaginable.
Doomsday was much much better that way. Everything since has tried to give him 'depth' and its all a miserable pile of fail.
Supes getting taken out in a slug fest by a monster is an excellent way to kill him. It makes it about Superman dying first and foremost, not sharing any glory with the one that actually accomplishes this feat.
Doomsday has never been much more than fail. Deciding that you're going to kill Superman is an exciting step, but giving the trophy to a complete newcomer whose sole ability is that his power level is OVER NINE THOUSAND!!! was, is, and always will be quite lame. Compare this with Whatever Happened To The Man of Tomorrow, where the Pre-Crisis Superman went through a gantlet of his Rouge's Gallery before finally facing a mastermind who actually deserved to "destroy" him.
But I did like Hunter/Prey -- once they did come up with a backstory for Doomsday, it was a good tale. But every face-off since then has been doomed to anti-climax even when they try to amp it up by being Doomsay ... with Brainiac's mind! or an army of Doomsday clones!!!
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Doomsday has never been much more than fail. Deciding that you're going to kill Superman is an exciting step, but giving the trophy to a complete newcomer whose sole ability is that his power level is OVER NINE THOUSAND!!! was, is, and always will be quite lame. Compare this with Whatever Happened To The Man of Tomorrow, where the Pre-Crisis Superman went through a gantlet of his Rouge's Gallery before finally facing a mastermind who actually deserved to "destroy" him.
But I did like Hunter/Prey -- once they did come up with a backstory for Doomsday, it was a good tale. But every face-off since then has been doomed to anti-climax even when they try to amp it up by being Doomsay ... with Brainiac's mind! or an army of Doomsday clones!!!
You know what'd be fun?
Doomsday villain decaying so much that Booster Gold takes down an army of him. At once.
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It was a multi-series crossover that had nothing more than an extended slugfest. Doomsday never spoke, aloud or internally, he had no motivation, no desire, no plan. There were no secondary plots, no moment of truth for a character, no heroic stand or outthinking the villain because there was no thinking. It was Superman and Doomsday throwing punches until they both dropped dead. The worst kind of stereotypical superhero plot imaginable.
And DC built it up as a major event, put out all the crossover issues and played it up in the media, driving both comic book fans and people that didn't even know stores specializing in comic books exist to buy up all the issues with the hopes that they would be worth a mint later on.
Um...you do know that it was a three-part event, right? There was the Death of Superman*, the Reign of the Supermen, and the Return of Superman (or something).
The Reign introduced 4 new characters, all of whom are still around- Superboy (Ok, he's dead, but it's still a big deal), Steel (went on to get his own series and join the JLA), the Eradicator, and the Cyborg Superman (just appeared as a big baddie in the Sinestro Corps). It kept people guessing who was the real Superman and who was fake.
Then it was revealed that the Cyborg Superman was evil when he and Mongel wiped Coast City off the map, starting a chain of events leading to Hal's being possessed by Parallax and that whole thing.
*I also fully disagree with your dismissel of Doomsday. He is, in a way, everything Superman is not. Superman stands for law, order, justice, and and decency. Doomsday is the exact opposite- he's an agent of chaos who kills, and kills, and kills until there's nothing left. Superman + anti-Superman = mutual annihilation.
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