GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
This post serves for the organization of our WarCraft 3 groups - all relevant information will be edited into here. The previous WarCraft 3 thread can be found here.
There are two GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne groups - one focusing on custom maps, and meeting on Fridays, and one focusing on melee (i.e., normal WarCraft), meeting on Sundays. There is a also a third GitP group focusing on DotA, but it is independent of the group organized within this thread; the associated thread can be found here (warning, no guarantee of this link being updated, can be outdated). There is a fair chance of meeting some of us in the BattleNet on other days, too, so if you want to play, just come and see whether some of us are online. Our channel bot can help you with that.
The people who expressed interest in the custom map group are, so far (BattleNet names in brackets):
Anyone else who wants to join in, feel free to do so. The more the merrier.
Meeting place is the Azeroth server (USEast), channel op GitP.
The official meeting time is for the custom map group is every Friday, 4 PM EST(=GMT-5). For the melee group it is every Sunday, around the same hour. However, the hours are just a guideline; typically, people can be found online long, long before that. Of course, these meeting times are always open to discussion, if people should prefer a different time.
Also feel free to use this thread to arrange spontaneous games.
I suggest putting each other on our friend lists to make seeing who is online easier.
4 PM EST corresponds to the following times in various time zones:
1 PM Pacific = 2 PM Mountain = 3 PM Central = 4 PM Eastern = 5 PM Atlantic = 10 PM Central European
We have our own channel bot, GitP@USEast, by courtesy of Leper_Kahn and Cynan Machae. Its capabilities and functions are described here. For optimum functionality, it would be helpful if everyone added the bot to their friend-lists. The most useful command probably is ".fl", which causes the bot to tell you who happens to be online currently.
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LGBTitP Supporter In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
The basics of gameplay are simple. You control a single worker, who constructs three kinds of buildings and can purchase items. The three types are: Unit Spawn, which create units that run at the opponents base and attack; Towers; which fire at attacking units; and Special Buildings, which have various effects to buff your units and hurt/debuff your enemy's. Castle Fight is played with two teams of workers facing off against one another. You win when you destroy your opponent's castle, although usually this is just a formality: a win is obvious before the castle comes under fire.
General unit information:
Units come in three types: Melee, Ranged and Air. In most cases, melee units can only attack other melee or ranged units, and ranged and air units can attack anyone. There are three major weapon types and three major armor types. These work somewhat like a game of rock-paper-scissors:
Normal damage is great against Medium armor, decent against Heavy, and poor against Light. Magic damage is great against Heavy armor, decent against Light, and poor against Medium. Piercing damage is great against Light armor, decent against Medium, and poor against Heavy.
This dynamic is probably the most crucial one to the game. Memorizing and following this chart is essential.
There are a few other types of damage and armor.
Chaos damage does it's full, normal damage against armor types. It is best used against Divine armor or as a poor man's siege unit, though is a good choice against anything. Hero damage deals slightly increased damage to all three major armor types and Unarmored armor, and slightly higher than normal against Divine, but is poor against buildings. This is the best damage type in the game, only three units possess it (the Human Paladin, the Undead Skeleton General, and the Mechanical Adamantine Golem). Siege damage is most often used against buildings. It deals reduced damage to all armor types except for Fortified and Unarmored. It should be used once your army is about to break into your opponent's base, since it is offensive in nature. It can also be used effectively against Unarmored enemies.
Unarmored armor takes slightly increased damage from all attack types except for Chaos. This is the usual armor type for casters, though a few other units possess this type. These units are weak, and should be protected, since any unit can kill them with relative ease. Divine armor is the best in the game. It takes dramatically reduced damage from all damage types except for chaos (though it is slightly vulnerable to Hero damage). It can be used against almost any unit, especially units from the Orc, Human, High Elf and Corrupted races (these races either lack affordable Chaos damage or have none at all). Only three units have this armor type: the Undead Banshee, occasionally the Chaos Blood Fiend, and the Mechanical Adamantine Golem. Fortified armor is the armor type of all buildings. It takes reduced damage from all damage types except from Chaos and Siege.
Races:
Humans are a good all-around race with cheap units.
Strengths: The Paladin is alternately known as the Imbadin. There is a good reason for this. Warlocks are excellent against swarms of enemy units. Defenders will essentially shut down ranged attackers.
Weaknesses: Despite what it says on the label, Warlocks deal spell damage, not chaos damage. This means that Divine armor units cannot be countered by humans. The human tower is poor.
Orcs, like humans, possess relatively cheap units. Their buffs are considered the best in the game. Orcs are a primarily ranged race.
Strengths: Buffs, buffs and more buffs. With Shamen, three different kinds of Kodo Riders, and Ceremonial Altars (name? I'm writing this without the game in front of me), Orcs make their teammates flat out better. They also have great debuffs, with the Wyvern's Slow Poison, the Serpent Rock, and the Troll Trapper's net.
Weaknesses: A lack of melee options. Orcs, like humans, completely lack chaos damage. Their tower is vulnerable to ground units.
High Elves, have the most expensive units in the game, but also have some of the strongest units.
Strengths: Power. The High Elves do everything well, from the Blademaster, a fast-attacking high damage melee unit, to the Master Archer, a ranged unit that does high damage and occasionally stuns an opponent, to the Sorceress/Wizard, which casts chain heal and chain lightning. Also, the City of Magic will disable 2-3 of your enemy's units at any time, and is extremely cost effective. Don't leave base without one. Or five.
Weaknesses: If you mess up, it's hard to recover. Since their units are so expensive, your enemy will outnumber you and will be able to respond to your builds faster than you can to theirs.
The other 6 races to come.
Building placement
The layout of each castle is as follows: From the castle go two lanes, one on the top, the other on the bottom. Between them and on their sides is area where buildings can be built. On their way to the enemy castle, the lanes pass through two walls; at each of these gates, the terrain subsides, so that ranged units that attack along the lane have to shoot up (and hence, tend to miss) when attacking targets more inside the castle.
So where is the right position to place what types of buildings?
Obviously, due to elevated terrain and the protection from melee units granted by the walls, the only two positions eligible for setting up the defense are the inner sides of the two walls. Since there are several reasons speaking in favour of setting up the defense as far back as possible (including: better protection for the castle itself, a more central position within the castle making it easier to reach coins (if any are in play), and more time for the troops to turn the battle on their own without endangering the fragile towers), the position to defend should be the inner wall.
Hence, towers should be built along the inner side of the inner wall. Always start building the towers at the middle of the wall, and go outwards from there - towers have enough range to protect both lanes easily even from the middle, and this way the big investment of a tower will be helpful no matter along which lane the danger approaches.
One very important thing to note about towers: They always draw the attention of all enemy units within their range upon themselves. If your team has a tower, other buildings will be attacked only if they can be attacked from out of the tower's range (or if the enemy has splash damage and targets normal units). Usually this also means that the tower gets absolute priority for repairing, as it will be the only thing attacked.
This also means that nothing must ever be built in the area between the inner and the outer wall - it won't be protected be the towers. There are no exceptions to this - building something outside the inner wall is practically suiciding it.
Creep spawning buildings can basically be placed whereever, there are a few things to note about them though:
Firstly, they obviously shouldn't be built along the inner wall - that place is reserved for towers.
Secondly, it is usually a good move to build some buildings along the inner sides of both lanes, starting right at the inner wall, so that these buildings make the way to the towers longer for melee units. The units need to be able to get out though, and since units appear below the building that spawns them, if the bottom line of buildings happens to be much shorter than the one on top, path-finding of the units on the top lane can be confused, causing them to march along the bottom lane, unnecessarily weakening the top lane, so ideally just have about 4 buildings built side by side from the wall to where the two lanes start to curve towards the castle on the inner side of each lane, and build the other creep-spawning buildings elsewhere.
Thirdly, buildings built at the outer side of the lanes, right at the inner wall, are just barely within tower range. This means ranged units can be able to attack them without entering tower range. Since the towers should, ideally, protect the entire base, if you are going to build on the outer side of the lanes, do so a few spaces away from the inner wall.
The middle, between the two lanes, right behind the towers, is where buildings helping with repairing go (like Naga Coral Statues or Goblin Spare Part Yards). Note there must be enough space for the builders to fit in so they can repair. Further back is a good place for air units, as from there they will be sent along the middle and engage whatever targets they spot first on either lane (meaning they will always help the lane where the battle is taking place closer to your castle, i.e. the one where things are going worse for your team, which is generally desirable).
Since units should arrive as soon as possible, creep-spawning buildings should ideally be built as much to the front as possible without endangering them.
Special buildings are usually rather costly and valuable, so they should be built as far in the back as possible, where they are save.
Since a lot of special buildings can deal area damage to the enemy base, it is usually best not to cluster up too much, especially not to cluster up the most valuable stuff too much.
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LGBTitP Supporter In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
Woot new thread :), but not to be an entirely useless post the wgw site is gone. The new NANS site is http://s1.zetaboards.com/Clan_NANS/index/ there are not any guides up yet but there should be soon. It has mostly been NM replays. I also put a guide to setting up vent up there. So if anyone wants to check it out go for it.
Edit: On swat who do you think should be leader? I am guessing that I would be best, but do not want to be the leader if someone(s) don't want me to. So if you would be in the SWAT group post your opinion on who would be leading. The people that I think play swat enough and are good enough to lead (I have not really seen them lead much so...) are U-gotNOgame and nooblade. Also if possible (especially if I am leading) I would like to have everyone in a x-fire chat. This makes leading much easier. For several reasons, but mainly you can give detailed instructions with out wasting the time or having the chance of dieing while typing.
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
Hm, i always thought it was the first post in the 51st page (the 1501th post) that signaled the end of a thread...
Anyways, i have lead several PIN's stemming from the SWAT channel so it would not be out of my league to lead a couple of group ins+, but i would always defer to Lego or Noob because i think that they are better then me. Winter i would also throw out as a possibility assuming hes going to stick with the group.
Also, my ID guide is written for 2.8.6 and is woefully out of date with the current 3.0.X versions. Thruthfully i do not know if i will ever get around to finishing/editing the new information into it.
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
Well we can of course have different people lead. Like if I am solo Watchman I probably wont really want to lead then. The reason winter wasn't included in the list is that I am sure he is/would be a great leader, but I don't think he understands pathing and how the mob works as well.
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
There are no fixed rules for when threads have to be restarted. I figured I'd just get it out of the way.
And, thanks, UGNG, but I think Lego's assessment is probably correct.
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LGBTitP Supporter In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterwind
And, thanks, UGNG, but I think Lego's assessment is probably correct.
Its alright, i find that sometimes i make erros in mob pathing, but a good enough team is usually able to push through a little mob that might have been forgotten/just spawned. Also all that really comes by is leading more, and watching replays with FoW off.
So the way i see it we have myself,lego,noob,winter,lib,slaan and tan(if he hasn't died or something). I think thats a good core group of players to build around for playing higher difficulties, and i would sign on, but i have Rugby practice
-UGNG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sstoopidtallkid
It's not depressing, it's the playground.
Last edited by u-gotNOgame : 05-05-2009 at 04:01 PM.
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
Well, I spent the day at home, staring at my finger (I think I'll call him stumpy... I'm even more hideous now than the last picture), letting it air out and dry after being stuck in bandaids for so long. Turns out the skin looks better after that, so it probably was a wetness thing making it look too white and unhealthy rather than a more serious problem, I'm relieved. Having stumpy exposed will take some getting used to though, visually and also for being careful about it.
I think I'll try playing d2 with one hand, It's quite a bit slower than SWAT in most cases and SSoG posted a rather cool javazon guide where you use 1pt in freezing arrow just to freeze everthing (upwards of 5 seconds in Hell, it's really cool how cold durations on items are added to the freeze length there), then blast it with poison and lightning javelins. Plus I haven't ever tried the CB, lvl 1 guided arrow combo suggested against bosses.
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
not to derail all the conversation about a map im not overly fond of, but: im sorry for being so spectacularly incompetent and possibly derailing games this sunday.
also, i notice some guides, but no melee guide. why is this? how can we fix this? maybe a general guide, with race-by-race subguides, each with matchup-by-matchup subguides?
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current excuse for incoherence: heat
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
The guides of this group are a rather recent innovation, say within the past 3-6 months.
As for Melee guides I was thinking of writing some myself. If nothing else other than a Unit comparison chart. As having the best units from each race is one of the ways to help gain dominance in team games.
Edit:
Spoiler
Libertarian_SDR's Warcraft III Unit Comparison Guide
Note: Stats listed are after full upgrades. Beginning Stats are in Parentheses.
Tier 1 Melee Units
Grunts
Cost 200 G 3 F
HP 800 (700)
Damage Type Normal
Armor Type Heavy
Avg.Damage 30 (19.5)
Armor 7 (1)
Speed 270
Footmen
Cost 135 G 2 F
HP 420
Damage Type Normal
Armor Type Heavy
Avg.Damage 17 (12.5)
Armor 8 (2)
Speed 270
Defend: Can reduce ranged damage at the expense of speed
Ghouls
Cost 120 G 2 F
HP 330
Damage Type Normal
Armor Type Heavy
Avg.Damage 17.5 (13)
Armor 6 (0)
Speed 350 (270)
Huntress**
Cost 195 G 20 L 3 F
HP 600
Damage Type Normal
Armor Type Unarmored
Avg.Damage 23* (17*)
Armor 8 (2)
Speed 350
Range 22 (ground only)
*The projectiles of the Huntress bounce between multiple units so the damage can be misleading when dealing with massed units.
**Technically the Huntress isn't a melee unit, but it fills much the same role in the
Night Elf army.
Analysis
Of the first 3 Grunts, Ghouls, and Footmen all are available from the entry level barracks.
While Hunts are only available after a hunters hall is built.
In terms of power both Hunts and Grunts have the advantage in overall power but both are pricy.
Footmen and Ghouls are the underdogs for early melee forces but do have their strengths.
(aka being cheap)
Footmen after purchasing the Defend upgrade will do better against ranged forces.
Ghouls have a rather high attack speed after researching Ghoul Frenzy and their damage will add up quickly as a result.
Later Tiers for T1 melee
Tier 1 melee units will always benefit from caster support.
Once you hit tier 3 though their applications dwindle to either support or to be phased out completely as there are far better units out there.
This is far from complete but is up for modification at your leisure.
Last edited by SirSigfried : 05-07-2009 at 03:59 PM.
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
I have been thinking about writing up a melee guide myself, but never felt particularly inspired to do so in the past months. Eh, I guess I should try and write one nonetheless (though I have to admit that I play a lot by instinct). Maybe this evening...
Unrelatedly, reminder: Tomorrow is our next custom map session. I hope to see you there.
__________________
LGBTitP Supporter In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
Well on guides in general I think that there are plenty of good guides out there already. So if you need to help with a race why not google "Wc3 Human guide" and with that you should find a lot of good guides. for example after less then 10 seconds of looking around I found this http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/archive/.../t-216725.html I am not sure how accurate it is but it seems good from the first few paragraphs, but I do not really plan on reading it myself since I have little interest in melee right now. In conclusion my thoughts are why reinvent the wheel. There are already lots of good guides out there. Why have are members waste there time to write guides that have already been written. So if you need help with something just google it and if you don't find anything after that ask it in the group.
I am going to be free if you want to swat. Just x-fire me.
Edit: after parsing through it it seems to be just a really basic guide.
Edit2: To add to what I already wrote, I know that people in are group bring their own specific knowledge and skills to writing a guide so if they want to write one I'm all for it. I am sure they would do just as good of a job (maybe better) as the other guides out there, but I don't think there should be any pressure from other members of the group for them to write one if they don't want to.
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
Well... while I basically agree with you that there are dozens of good guides out there, I feel there are still a couple of reasons why having a guide of our own creation here might be a good idea.
Firstly, people are lazy - they might be okay with reading a guide that is presented to them, but not feel like searching for one.
Secondly, many of the guides out there are not good - some omit important parts, some are poorly written and explain what they mean badly, some are outright wrong. And to make matters worse, newbies - i.e., the people who might be the most interested in such a guide - are also the ones the least qualified to determine whether a guide is good or not.
Thirdly, a guide we created ourselves has the advantage that we can expand it ourselves, as we please.
And fourthly, a self-created guide can address issues particularly important to the people in the group.
So... yes, I'm definitely going to write a guide for melee - at least a general one, and one for Undead. If need be, I think I can also write a more or less competent guide for the other races as well (well... maybe not Humans...).
Not today though. Tired from work.
__________________
LGBTitP Supporter In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
Okay, you would know more about the quality of guides out there. Two ideas came from your post.
1. We put up a list of good guides we know to be accurate.
2. That the melee guide is collaborative. For example, you would write the undead section because that is the race you have focused on and know best. While lib writes the Human section.
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
Your second point is pretty much what I had in mind, yes.
And there is nothing that speaks against collecting guides we know to be good, either.
__________________
LGBTitP Supporter In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
well, here are some general tips for melee, things i have noticed really cripple people, not very well organized, but thats that.
Spoiler
all races: if you dont plan to use your hero until you get at least a few army units, it might be worth it to make a barracks(ancient of war or crypt) before your altar, reversing the two in your build order. remember: never let a full health hero go to waste, use it to creep or harass if nothing else. information is a great edge to have, owls, far sight, owl sentries, arcane towers with the magic sentry upgrade, sentry wards, and maybe even shades or a stealthed blademaster can be exceptionally useful. do NOT let anyone whos not on your team expand if you can help it; see previous point.
with humans you want to either get tier 2 or riflemen as fast as possible. there are almost no exceptions to this. when forming a team remember: T1 humans are slightly weak, even if your doing rifles its smart to get tier 2 for the upgrade. once your there it might be smart to kill your footmen off if your foe hasnt gone mass range, as all they are at this point is food, taking up yours and giving it to enemy heroes. footmen are completely useless against ranged units and creeps without defend (which only works on piercing by the way. it does nothing against huntresses breakers or late air except slow you down).
heroes: never ever ever ever ever use a paladin except against undead mountain king is my hero of choice, and is good against rushes or for early creeping. archmage is good and versatile, great ult, but squishy. blood mages are devastating against buildings late game, so against players that tend to cluster them, a blood mage is a good second choice.
with orcs, get a shop ASAP, i mean; by the time your hero comes out if you plan to hero harass. 1 of everything is exceptionally useful in harassing. by the time your first grunt arrives if you plan to creep, scrolls of speed are great creeping accelerators, and that healing salve can be a lifesaver, especially in team games, its practically your rod of necromancy as far as versatility and overall usefulness goes.
BM is the classic harasser, but i find FS can do equally well, and both provide extra muscle and intelligence later in the game. TC is your support choice, with SH taking up second, rarely do i see a tauren chieften as a first hero, but he can work quite well, my experience with SH is limited, but he makes a good second hero. orcs are all about their heroes, dont be afraid to spend a minute on creeping or a few extra gold on relevant items.
with undead: rod of necromancy is a good thing. its versatile and helps with offence, defence, harassing, major battles, and creeping. remember your good regeneration on blight, send injured units back to heal if your DK is OOM or you picked a different hero. nerubian towers are very very good, better than spirit towers for the cost, especially if you plan the towers only to be a delay until your army can get there. even if you mass spirit towers (i cant think of a time when this is a good idea) be sure to mix in nerubian towers for the slow effect.
DH for initial support/muscle, DL for initial support, CL for some rushes, lich is a great second, and especially against a human nuke a dark ranger (mercenary) is not unheard of but undead is not my race. take my advice only if no other is offered.
with night elves: mass archers doesnt usually work very well, a good general rule: never ever ever ever use archers. there are advanced exceptions to this, but i call them advanced for a reason. multiple night elves do not work well on a team, they lack synergy with each other. remember that your the only ones who get siege on T1. a few siege behind a hunt rush can give you an edge going up against an enemy base, or seriously devastate an opposing army of huntresses, since they arent much more expensive and dont take too much longer to produce, its always worthwhile to have at least one in NE mirrors.
DH/KOTG for harassing and extra muscle, POTM/KOTG for support, warden/KOTG/POTM for good seconds
i apolagize for my lack of organization and scatterbrain writing style.
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current excuse for incoherence: heat
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
Sounds pretty much right. A couple comments:
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by 742
heroes: never ever ever ever ever use a paladin except against undead
I assume you meant to say "as first hero" here. I pretty much agree with it then; however, as secondary or (more often) tertiary heroes, paladins work great to keep your army and especially your primary hero alive (the most popular hero choice for Humans is to play with three heroes: Arch Mage - Mountain King - Paladin).
Quote:
Originally Posted by 742
mountain king is my hero of choice, and is good against rushes or for early creeping. archmage is good and versatile, great ult, but squishy. blood mages are devastating against buildings late game, so against players that tend to cluster them, a blood mage is a good second choice.
To elaborate some more:
The Mountain King's primary purpose is as nuker - with stun bolt, he either finishes wounded units and heroes, or hurts them and prevents them from running away, so the rest of your army can finish the job.
The Arch Mage excels at creeping with his Water Elementals, and also provides a powerful unit to the army in early battles. His aura is crucial to make other heroes and casters (who typically are a major part of a Human army) more effective. In bigger games or in late-game it is a good idea to switch to Blizzard (use a Tome of Retraining, if necessary), to hurt those big clustered armies really bad. Especially effective against ranged units, as you can hit them more easily without hitting yourself.
The Blood Mage works primarily as either harassment hero or anti-hero hero - flamestrike is devastating to workers, mana leech and banish can totally disable enemy heroes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 742
with undead: rod of necromancy is a good thing. its versatile and helps with offence, defence, harassing, major battles, and creeping.
And scouting, that's important, too. Send out two skeletons to two different gold mines, and you may detect a pesky expansion before it can come up.
Just make sure to pick moderately fresh ones. It won't do you no good if they fall apart one screen away from their goal.
And remember, you can use corpses from the graveyard (including enemy graveyards) and from critters (like sheep, deer and such) for the rod of necromancy, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 742
remember your good regeneration on blight, send injured units back to heal if your DK is OOM or you picked a different hero.
While there are situations and alternate strategies where a non-DK as first hero makes sense (the most common one being UD vs. UD), I'd actually file that under "advanced". For new players, I think I'd actually recommend going DK first 100% of the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 742
nerubian towers are very very good, better than spirit towers for the cost, especially if you plan the towers only to be a delay until your army can get there. even if you mass spirit towers (i cant think of a time when this is a good idea) be sure to mix in nerubian towers for the slow effect.
Mhh... I don't really agree here.
Spirit towers are far more damaging than Nerubian ones. Plus, they have pierce (as opposed to the Nerubian's normal), which increases their effectiveness against huntresses, casters and (almost all) air units greatly.
Personally, I'd say: If you merely need to hold off the enemy until your army arrives, or want to prevent harrassment (that last point is important. Slowed, enemy heroes, far seer wolves and such are no longer faster than your accolytes), one or two Nerubian towers is all that you need. If, on the other hand, you want the defence to actually be able to deter, damage or hold off the enemy effectively, it should consist primarily of Spirit Towers (though I agree that one Nerubian for slow is a must).
Quote:
Originally Posted by 742
DH for initial support/muscle, DL for initial support, CL for some rushes, lich is a great second, and especially against a human nuke a dark ranger (mercenary) is not unheard of but undead is not my race. take my advice only if no other is offered.
I'd say: Death Knight is pretty much obligatory (not necessarily as 1st, but both his coil to keep your army and other heroes alive, and his aura to assist your army are difficult to work without). Dread Lord is decent at creeping and works well to disrupt enemy hero activities (anticipate when they might cast a spell - critical healing spells like holy light or death coil would be a great example - and make them sleep just before they get to cast it). Lich is raw and massive damage output and (as only ranged UD hero) important to have someone carry the incredibly critical orb around (I cannot stress enough how crucial it is for an UD to have the orb of corruption!); he's best used as second, though works excellently as first hero in UD vs. UD games, too. And the Crypt Lord is primarily for rushes, indeed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 742
DH/KOTG for harassing and extra muscle, POTM/KOTG for support, warden/KOTG/POTM for good seconds
I'd argue the Warden and Priestess of the Moon work quite well for harrassment, too - Shadow Strike makes for easy kills, Searing Arrows give the PotM a damage output of a magnitude difficult to match in the early game.
__________________
LGBTitP Supporter In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
Oh! Sorry, Lib, I completely missed that!
*reading now...*
EDIT: I think you should add definite evaluations how what kind of unit will fare in an actual game and what their best uses are.
For instance, microed huntresses will beat all other T1 melee units on account of being faster than them (i.e., the wounded ones can pull out and the enemy units cannot follow) and having the range to focus better.
Or, ghouls are mostly suited for rushes and keeping enemy units away from the rest of the army - if one is not rushing and there are other allied units around that can fulfill that purpose as well, fiends are better.
Things like that.
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LGBTitP Supporter In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
Ohhhh new thread.
I can certainly use any scrap of strategy/guides you guys are posting :P
I wasnt aware how much grunts were so much better than other T1 melee units. I don't use other races much other than the occasional Night Elf, but still :P
And I'm glad to see that I'm at least doing one part of harassing right. Getting shop ASAP and one item from each The rest, well...
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duos
I notice an Island D guide there-I'd be happy to help UGNG flesh that out, if he wants.
Be my guest, after i started it i really just figured out that i didn't have the time to finish it. If you want to use that as a base i would be happy to send you a note pad version of the file so that you can re-post it with all your edits and changes. I think that would be faster and more effecient since i do not believe that i can edit my post since the threads been locked.
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
Quote:
Originally Posted by u-gotNOgame
Be my guest, after i started it i really just figured out that i didn't have the time to finish it. If you want to use that as a base i would be happy to send you a note pad version of the file so that you can re-post it with all your edits and changes. I think that would be faster and more effecient since i do not believe that i can edit my post since the threads been locked.
-UGNG
The old thread hasn't been locked, though, so it's actually much simplier than that.
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LGBTitP Supporter In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
So, reminder: Tomorrow is our next custom map session. I hope to see you all there.
__________________
LGBTitP Supporter In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
And I'll be able to join in the latter part of that meeting along with stubby!
It's good enough to use a mouse now, actually quite well healed with some of the sutures still remaining around the nail in unobtrusive places, that and I don't need to push any buttons with it. I hold the mouse with thumb and pinky anyway. The rest of the bio-degradable sutures come out with soap and water. Typing again will be difficult though, it feels numb all the time when I touch things (the palm of my hand feels the same as a counter-top to that fingertip ), and keystrikes with it kinda hurt even though I have a solid fleshy part to use, so I'll wait a couple days before trying that again. Also on the plus side, you'd have to look really close to see that something's wrong with the finger, it's less than a centimeter shorter than before.
Handwriting has worked for a while now and that leads to what's getting in the way of our meeting: the final exam in circuits! I'm looking forward to it actually, I feel ready for this one, about time I got it over with. Little preparation and review time is all I need.
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
Good to hear you're better now.
And good luck with that exam!
__________________
LGBTitP Supporter In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
Now, before I forget again (like last week ), reminder: Tomorrow is our next melee session. Hope to see you there.
__________________
LGBTitP Supporter In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
Almost forgot - because I am going on a business trip tomorrow and will be gone till late Saturday, there will be no reminders for either session this week. Sorry for the inconvenience.
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LGBTitP Supporter In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
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GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)
), and keystrikes with it kinda hurt even though I have a solid fleshy part to use, so I'll wait a couple days before trying that again. Also on the plus side, you'd have to look really close to see that something's wrong with the finger, it's less than a centimeter shorter than before.
I plan on showing up, so but i will be late for the third time in three weeks... happy gaming.
), reminder: Tomorrow is our next melee session. Hope to see you there. 
