This would be an easier sell if the Order were somehow to appreciate the fundamental justice of Redcloak's plan to set up a goblin society, free from being mere XPs for humanoids. Establishing that growing realization would be a huge plot meta-arc. So far, O-Chul is the only member of the order to reach across racial lines (with MiTD).
Spoiler
Not entirely. Roy did insist on helping those orcs in OtOoPCs, remember?
None of the good guys is very likely to reach out to Redcloak, and frankly, it would be a mistake if they did. To Redcloak's brother, to Redcloak's niece, maybe...But Redcloak has way too much invested in Xykon and his own inability to admit that he's wrong.
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Spoiler
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
"The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan
I have no objection, except to say... "and just what is wrong with "cheap thrills"? We can just leave the "sacrificing realism" bit aside, as that just makes no sense at all when talking about a comic book, starring stick figures in a fantasy universe based loosely on a game that relies on your imagination (and toys ).
But a good-- meaning "enjoyable"-- story for many includes "cheap thrills", as well as sometimes slapstick humour, and even potty jokes.
This comic is by no means strictly for "Intellectuals at Play".... if I wanted to do that, I'd read the dictionary.
We are a wide and varied community of fans; young and old, experienced tabletop gamers and people who have never even conceived of a d20.... and everything in between.
But I'm pretty sure that we all have it in common that we don't have a high expectation of, or desire for, "realism" (given that it's a comic book, starring stick figures in a fantasy universe, etc.), and I kinda figure that most of us have little to no objection to a "cheap thrill" or two if it makes for.... a good story (that gets us excited, or makes us laugh, that kind of thing).
I guess I have nothing against "cheap thrills", a bit of fun, etc. My only real objection was the loading of the argument by implying that something good and noble was being traded off for something cheap and disposable. It's an artistic choice, and I really don't feel that one is better than the other. Each has its own merits, and it should be obvious to everyone here which choice Rich has made. How anyone can continue to be surprised by that choice is beyond me.
I feel kind of fortunate in that I don't really know the D&D rules, having never played (apart from a few things and terms picked up purely by osmosis). So I just sit back and enjoy the ride. And I do think that the current storyline has become my favourite so far from this strip (it is the one that has finally pushed me into starting to buy the books).
I have seen many movies which have had moments of disbelief, which I simply didn't care about because the story/spectacle/gag is just too good (Rule of Cool/Rule of Funny/etc). And I have always disliked the kind of person who walks out of a theatre who insists on telling everyone around them all the reasons that the movie sucked because this, that and the other thing couldn't have happened. But I concede that not everyone feels the same way I do about that kind of thing.
Last edited by Tova : 06-03-2009 at 05:33 AM.
Reason: typo
I think the Giant explicitly saying a few pages back that the splice allowed V to re-choose all his spells rather than forcing him to repeat the ones he already had selected already disproved it, but thanks for sharing.
Yes, I just found his thoughts on the subject. Durn shame. I went over all the relevant comics with a fine-tooth comb for that rationale.
Alas, it was unnecessary; an elaborate defense of the wrong mechanical explanation.
I have deleted it in shame, and am slinking off to my cave.
No, it's make up such rules as you feel like to get the result you want.
YES! Yes, of COURSE it is!
Rich does not care about ANY of the things you care about. He does not care about consistency. He does not care about "realism" whatever that means when we're talking about liches throwing swarms of meteors. He does care about drama, and cheap thrills.
And that is why, for all your nitpicking analysis, he is a better writer than you would be. Because he knows when to break the rules. Because audiences care more about drama and cheap thrills than consistency and realism, and they always will. These things you rail against every day are insignificant. In the end, no one will remember whether O-Chul should have taken enough damage in Panel 4 of strip #658 to be killed. They will remember the main thrust of the story.
And you can spend all day pounding on the keyboard, dissecting other people's posts sentence-by-sentence, trying to convince people that they should care about the same things you care about, but they never will. Ever.
And for that, I am happy, because it means Rich will continue writing his story exactly the way he is: full of drama and cheap thrills.
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Congratulations, you can link to TV Tropes. This does not mean you have special insight into the storytelling process, much less the author's mind. Stories don't need to fit into neat boxes, you know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Giant
Spod has it right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grasilich
You not reading the comic isn't going to make this comic any less awesome for all the rest of us.
"oh gods, what did they do NOW? They we'rent supposed to be there and attack that for ages"
[Hides dice]
It Misses!. Ooops, it hit and did *just enough damage to scare the crap out of you, but not enough to kill you*
Miss again!
Fudging dice to not totally wipe the party is a perfectly acceptable part of D&D, after all as DM/storyteller you're not out to kill them
If said players then choose to use this time to pull a heroic sacrifice that's their choice.
Even though this is a story driven comic and not a game, I personally applaud O'chul for his actions
It is recommended, however, that you do it in a manner that the group *never* knows that you fudged it. A good way is to *always* roll behind a shield.
Akin to psychohistory, plot armor requires it's targets not to know about it.
"Originally Posted by Wanderer
You ALWAYS have Feather Fall. Even if you're adventuring in the Great Flat City in the Flatland Plains on continent Flat."
Australia?
Hey, no national slurs. Also, Australia has a mountain range and some additional high rocks. And high buildings.
I wonder if we'll see the return of mister barky from Start of Darkness? Xykons never been shown with a familiar, but if he had anything it would probably be mr barky. It could pop into reality for some familiar on familiar aerial action.
The raven flies at the same speed as someone with overland flight on them.
I can't decide if flying zombie dogs are cool or disturbing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer
If V doesn't have Feather Fall prepared he FAILS UTTERLY at being a caster. You ALWAYS have Feather Fall. Even if you're adventuring in the Great Flat City in the Flatland Plains on continent Flat. Better to waste a first level spell slot or two than to fall somehow and end up as the new tourist attraction: the Flat Wizard.
QFT. No feather fall = dead caster. If you don't have it, you're going to wish you did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPoD
YES! Yes, of COURSE it is!
Rich does not care about ANY of the things you care about. He does not care about consistency. He does not care about "realism" whatever that means when we're talking about liches throwing swarms of meteors. He does care about drama, and cheap thrills.
And that is why, for all your nitpicking analysis, he is a better writer than you would be. Because he knows when to break the rules. Because audiences care more about drama and cheap thrills than consistency and realism, and they always will. These things you rail against every day are insignificant. In the end, no one will remember whether O-Chul should have taken enough damage in Panel 4 of strip #658 to be killed. They will remember the main thrust of the story.
And you can spend all day pounding on the keyboard, dissecting other people's posts sentence-by-sentence, trying to convince people that they should care about the same things you care about, but they never will. Ever.
And for that, I am happy, because it means Rich will continue writing his story exactly the way he is: full of drama and cheap thrills.
Spod has it right again. Rich's world, Rich's rules. The end. There is simply no room for argument. If Rich says it works that way, then it works that way. If the nitpickers and rules lawyers don't like it, they can go write their own world that is enslaved to the rulebooks.
Also, if the Snarl eats Xykon's soul, then he can't remake the soul-hidey place. Which means the next time he's gone, he's gone for good.
No, the phylactery only stores the soul after a Litch's body is destroyed. Most of the time is in the body of the litch, if the phylactery is destroyed the litch's soul will move on the the afterlife. But even if you do manage to destroy a litch's phylactery, they can build a new one (for about 60,000gp + some XP I think). Thought this does leave them vulnerable for some time.
Oh and to this date we have no evedince that Xykon knows how to build one.
Spoiler
Start of darkness suggest the opposite.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycanthromancer
As a druid, I have the right to bear arms, the right to arm bears, and I've killed men with my bear hands.
Plus, this is some kind of 3.5/4 hybrid - what's Meteor Swarm like in 4th?
Level 29 Daily Spell, hits a square 25 foot wide up to 100ft away (or area burst 5 within 20) , 8d6+INT fire damage. So up to 25 people can take that 8d6+Int fire damage. I'm far from an expert at 3.5, so I've got no idea how it stacks up with 3.5 meteor swarm
Level 29 Daily Spell, hits a square 25 foot wide up to 100ft away (or area burst 5 within 20) , 8d6+INT fire damage. So up to 25 people can take that 8d6+Int fire damage. I'm far from an expert at 3.5, so I've got no idea how it stacks up with 3.5 meteor swarm
The 3.5 Meteor Swarm is on the SRD. To summarise, 9th level Sor/Wiz spell, sends four blobs that do 2d6 impact if they score a direct hit then 6d6 fire each within four 40' spreads. Mechanically speaking the odds are against O-Chul or V surviving but it's a story, so that's OK.
Rich does not care about ANY of the things you care about. He does not care about consistency. He does not care about "realism" whatever that means when we're talking about liches throwing swarms of meteors. He does care about drama, and cheap thrills.
And that is why, for all your nitpicking analysis, he is a better writer than you would be. Because he knows when to break the rules. Because audiences care more about drama and cheap thrills than consistency and realism, and they always will. These things you rail against every day are insignificant. In the end, no one will remember whether O-Chul should have taken enough damage in Panel 4 of strip #658 to be killed. They will remember the main thrust of the story.
And you can spend all day pounding on the keyboard, dissecting other people's posts sentence-by-sentence, trying to convince people that they should care about the same things you care about, but they never will. Ever.
And for that, I am happy, because it means Rich will continue writing his story exactly the way he is: full of drama and cheap thrills.
If I could sig all of this, I would.
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Quote:
Here's something you may not have considered: being torn asunder HURTS.
Ponified Diablo 3 Monk granted to me by Akrim.Elf, a thousand blessings be to her!
Former Avatars!
Spoiler
Diablo 3 Monk avatar blessed upon me by CrimsonAngel, and his awesome art skillz.
So what you're saying is, a pair of characters who have no statlines cannot possibly survive a reasonably defined attack from another character who has no statline. Even if you had any actual grounds for criticism, story always trumps rules. Plus, this is some kind of 3.5/4 hybrid - what's Meteor Swarm like in 4th?
What I saw was the most powerful level (9) of spells (not counting epic) being thrown at nearly dead characters and they survive it too easily. It left a bad taste, even if not impossible.
And what do you mean a 3.5/4 hybrid? Rich specifically said this will not go into 4th ed. Where's your proof?
they can still jump and V conjure feather fall next to the ground.. i mean V surely has first level spells... and this is a basic one (especially for characters who have fly spells).
Go go go
In other words you are saying this is a sacrifice of "realism" for the same of cheap thrills.
...etc...
David, and the others who are actually finding it distasteful, please, it's time to leave this alone. Rich stated a long time ago that he is writing a story, not transcribing a gaming session. If you find that Rich writing a story based on a world that runs mostly by D&D rules to not work unless every last mechanic is enforced and Rich actually "writes" the story by rolling the dice rather than dramatic writing, then you are only going to get upset, as I am pretty sure that Rich has no intention of changing. If it's that much of a problem, then please don't make yourself unhappy by fighting a battle that you are only going to lose to the author.
The point that is being missed:
In D&D we roll dice when we attempt an action and the dice describe the result of our attempt. This is the opposite to writing, where the result is determined first. Any "mechanics" then have to match the result, not the other way round.
So, it's not "the healing potions shouldn't have healed that much on average, the dice should have meant that Xykon hit with more meteors, they should have done average damage of so much, O-Chul and V should be dead". If Rich had done it that way then he would be a lazy writer, and the strip would not be the delight that I (and many others) find it to be.
It should be "O-Chul ran for the gap in the wall, half-carrying and half-dragging V behind him. Xykon, his anger rising , hurled yet another batch of magical meteors at them. O-Chul hurls V to one side, then dodges out of the way of the blast; it catches him, knocking him to one side and bruising and singeing his already-battered body still further, but he and Varsuvius roll back to their feet and keep on heading for the hole."
---- which means that Xykon rolled a couple of 1s and a 2 (it does happen, honest, and it happens to me with distressing regularity - and a friend of mine once rolled a sequence 1,1,2,1,4,1,1 before hurling his dice phyically out of the window), then had a bad damage roll against the high rolls from the two potions of healing and the potion of fire resistance that V poured down O-Chul's throat.
In D&D, brilliant plans and last-moment acts of desperation often fail. I recently was in a game where I had a cunning plan to immobolise and defeat a high-level sorceror sat astride a dragon that, after I had prepared, would only fail on a very low roll. I rolled a 1, then a 2 on a balance check and my character ended up on the floor being AoO'd by the dragon's tail. If it had been a movie, either it would have succeeded or failed through the actions of the sorceror, not through clumsiness.
How often do you see the hero, having had the gun thrown to him at the last second, aim at the detonator, snarl out a "hasta la vista, baby" type catchphrase, then fire, miss that tricky shot and get killed by the villain who ends the movie as the victor? Writing doesn't follow the dice.
Last edited by Milandros : 06-03-2009 at 09:56 AM.
What I saw was the most powerful level (9) of spells (not counting epic) being thrown at nearly dead characters and they survive it too easily. It left a bad taste, even if not impossible.
But for people to whom this is only a fantasy story, to whom D&D rules are irrelevant, it would be no more distasteful than if the two of them had survived being hit by a Flaming Sphere. Instead, they're expected to tolerate the hit point mechanic and ignore how implausible such a thing should be. In exchange, we should not insist on an adherence to the mechanical absolute when it interferes with the story.
In many D&D games, the DM would simply toast the PC and NPC here, shrug, and expect the game to move on. Others would make their decision based on how compelling everyone at the table found the event, and tell Strategy and Rules to go grab a pizza or something.
I don't care whether V survived because Xykon started monologuing, was distracted by a door to door salesman, or simply failed to get the full impact out of his explodey effect spell, even if none of them make sense from the perspective of playing the best move available. Maybe the Giant has another gag set up to explain why the spell didn't kill them. Maybe the explanation is that Xykon doesn't want them dead yet and deliberately aimed to miss with three out of four shots. Maybe those weren't all Cure potions, and some were Protection from Energy (Fire).
Or maybe the Giant felt it was reasonable for the lich to choose that spell in the circumstances, but pointless for the two characters to die at that particular time, with nothing else mattering. Works for me, no matter how much damage the spell should do, be it 1d3 or 30d6+123456.
That's how my DM treats games anyway, and we've tried both adhering blindly to the rules, and bending them for awesome / story / fun when required, and I can tell you the second one is wayyyy more fun.
People complaining about a webcomic, which has a great story and lots of action, because it doesn't always follow a ruleset?!? So absurd. Please, give Rich a break.
And I completely agree with Apelord. Some people need to learn how to have fun!
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Your Friendly Neighborhood Evil Overlord
Rich does not care about ANY of the things you care about. He does not care about consistency. He does not care about "realism" whatever that means when we're talking about liches throwing swarms of meteors. He does care about drama, and cheap thrills.
And that is why, for all your nitpicking analysis, he is a better writer than you would be. Because he knows when to break the rules. Because audiences care more about drama and cheap thrills than consistency and realism, and they always will. These things you rail against every day are insignificant. In the end, no one will remember whether O-Chul should have taken enough damage in Panel 4 of strip #658 to be killed. They will remember the main thrust of the story.
And you can spend all day pounding on the keyboard, dissecting other people's posts sentence-by-sentence, trying to convince people that they should care about the same things you care about, but they never will. Ever.
And for that, I am happy, because it means Rich will continue writing his story exactly the way he is: full of drama and cheap thrills.
Very well said. Bolded for effect. I've been wanting to say something like this for awhile, but SPoD has phrased it far better than I ever could. Will the people who keep complaining about the rules please read this and take it to heart.
If you must complain about the rule-bending, do it in a joking manner, as befitting a complaint about the realism of a comic strip. We've heard you. We know that the rules are being bent. We just don't see it as a problem.
It reminds me alot of what Shojo told Belkar, actually. If you want to hang out on this forum, you have to play the game. Just sit at the table and pretend to be going along with it all, if not the other players will kick you out.
And you don't have to sig it all. I think one paragraph captures the main point well enough.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPoD
And you can spend all day pounding on the keyboard, dissecting other people's posts sentence-by-sentence, trying to convince people that they should care about the same things you care about, but they never will. Ever.
See, kids? That's why O-Chul rules. Even when he knows he have no means to win a direct battle, he thinks of an out-of-the-box solution.
What? People forget that good ideas can be used, aside from merely creating powerplayer characters? This is D&D, people, not Magic: The Gathering.
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Member of the Hinjo fan club. Go Hinjo!
"In Soviet Russia, the Darkness attacks you."
My friend's quote: "Rogues not only have a lot more skill points, but sneak attack is so good it hurts..."
Class variant:Fighter
Fun Stuff:Mushrooms
I am thinking that RedCloak's holy symbol has, as one of the "so many abjuration spells protecting that thing, I've forgotten what half of them actually do." must be protection from and/or resist energy (fire)
... if that is the case it only takes a very small amount of house ruling to have it protect O'chul (even though not worn around his neck) and also V (because he is being carried by O'Chul at the time and therefore can, by a generous GM interested in a good story line, be considered to be a carried item or possession) ... then O'Chul only has to eat the impact damage from whatever meteors actually manage to hit him (looks like at least one did) and the fire damage from each explosion at -30hp damage each and V takes the fire damage at -30hp for each meteor
Does this make sense? Are there any good arguments against it (aside from the quibbles about what consitutes "properly equipped magic item" and "carried equipment"
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