Oh come ON!
… *sighs*
Yeah, I'm counting this as a villager win, since we would have won if there hadn't been TWO autolynches at the end.
Anyways, I had planned on trying to get in contact with Jontom after FC died, but that never really worked out.
And then I died.
Oh well, 'twas a good game.
I still count it as a wolf win, because if the opening post had been editted the last time the wolf network would have been 1 larger.
I was really surprised by the autolynches, actually. Great game. Much improved from Kyou 1.
Long rant ahead containing everything I wanted to say but couldn't before the game ended. Thus the spoiler.
Good game wolves. I still don't know how villagers could have screwed that up considering how obvious you guys made yourselves
Really? Because you didn't choose three of the final four Threats. I got Happyturtle. I got Mustiado. From your notes, they would have been left for near the end.
We had trouble with Recaiden, because by the time you died, there was only two Masons and me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleeing Coward
Jontom extremely well played there especially after what I chose to do. I still don't know how the masons decided that you shouldn't be lynched after Murska got killed, you got Banjo lynched after we wasted a day on Recaiden AND Uncle Festy got killed after you promised to protect him.
I'll apologise once again to Uncle Festy about giving his name to Jontom, it's the one mistake this game that I'll admit to making. PMing Jontom after a night at the pub probably isn't the smartest move I made and I regreted it the very next day
RedScholarGypsy and I decdied to let him in, because he had power. I believed he was neutral, and that it was your fault that things had gone so horrible at the beginnng. You chose the wrong fight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleeing Coward
Atreyu's death was unfortunate, I did try to move the bandwagon away from him because I wanted the wolves to kill him that night. How was I supposed to know he was the baner?
You're not supposed to point the wolves toward possible villagers. Just definte villagers. Like me, or Toasty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleeing Coward
Pushing to get Jontom lynched is something I do not regret for one second. If given the chance, I'd do it again. Not really much of a choice there between sacrificing the rest of the neutrals who contacted me before you and sacrificing you who also wanted the baner dead.
Except that this is what created a lot of division in the game. It didn't help us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleeing Coward
Mustiado, Lex misquoted me when he got you lynched. What I actually said was that evnafets was good to point at another wolf when he knew he was a dead man. Had it not been for that point, you'd have been further down on my list of suspects.
True. I looked over your list and revised it, updated it. And guess what, I got me a Threat. Two of them in fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleeing Coward
Finally, the 4 things the villagers/masons did that made me want to bang my head against the wall:
1) Lynching Banjo. You guys wasted a whole day following my final suggeston and then you turn around and lynch a neutral who still counted as a villager for number purposes while Jontom didn't. As soon as that happened, I gave up the game as a lost cause.
As to Banjo getting killed, he died because Racaiden was protected. 5 votes Banjo/6 votes Recaiden.
Honestly, I almost gave up myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleeing Coward
2) Letting Jontom lead you guys around especially when the masons knew that I had told Jontom about Uncle Festy, the fact that Murska had claimed seer to Jontom the night before he died, that Jontom immediately pinned the blame on Banjo when Festy died when you already wasted a day trying to lynch Recaiden and the likelyhood of him holding a grudge against the masons after what I pulled. Did he have to come out and admit that he was trying to help the wolves before you killed him?
Jontom didn't lead. I lead. He mostly listened to my suggestions. The only thing he gave us was an invincible Proxy, and that Toasty was a villager.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleeing Coward
3) Lex's point on Bitzeralisis. You knew he was a neutral by my final pm. Why would you point at him when I told the masons I asked him to block all actions on Recaiden for the next day?
Bitzeralisis was heading for Auto-Lynch. Auto-Lynches help the Threats, because they get a two for one deal. He had to go.
And yes, he would have been auto'd, because he was auto'd elsewhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleeing Coward
4) Selrahc's lynch. Selrahc and Toasty were the 2 villagers I had absolutely no doubt about from day one to the night I died and I said as much in that final pm of mine. Everything he had done and suggested was of help to the villagers yet you guys decide to lynch him just when I thought we might actually pull this one off despite everything that happened
Aemoh was pretty low on your list as well, if memory serves. Because he's always quiet.
There were four Possible threats left. Billtodamax, Selrahc, Szilard, and Aemoh.
I had a feeling, an incorrect one apperently, that Aemoh was not a threat.
But since I don't recall the PM I sent to Jontom, before I died, I'll have to depend on him to show the order I chose to go after the final four unknowns.
Really? Because you didn't choose three of the final four Threats. I got Happyturtle. I got Mustiado. From your notes, they would have been left for near the end.
We had trouble with Recaiden, because by the time you died, there was only two Masons and me.
Bitzeralisis was heading for Auto-Lynch. Auto-Lynches help the Threats, because they get a two for one deal. He had to go.
Now that's not true. I still have all my pms saved in xml files. There were only 2 people I said I was leaning towards wolf (Mustiado and Szilard) and one I'm certain is a wolf (Recaiden) in my final pm. From my notes, Mustiado wouldn't have been left to the end.
I also had Kyouhen and Recaiden down as wolves from my first list so that's 3 of the 4 wolves + evnafets from a scry.
Happyturtle was an anomaly that anyone who was looking should have picked up after she tried to discredit me after my death.
You chose Bitzeralisis over Recaiden when you knew Bitzeralisis was a neutral. You don't win games by picking a secret neutral that took the risk of contacting me when he didn't have to over someone that I was willing to bet was definately a wolf without a scry.
Quote:
RedScholarGypsy and I decdied to let him in, because he had power. I believed he was neutral, and that it was your fault that things had gone so horrible at the beginnng. You chose the wrong fight.
He had power but he had also gotten Murska, Uncle Festy and Banjo killed. Why you decided to trust him after that is beyond me.
Quote:
You're not supposed to point the wolves toward possible villagers. Just definte villagers. Like me, or Toasty.
I pointed the wolves towards someone on my unknowns list. It's unfortunate that he turned out to be the baner but that's how luck is sometimes.
Quote:
Except that this is what created a lot of division in the game. It didn't help us.
I don't regret for a minute doing what I did. Having to choose between 2 neutrals and a baner or a neutral who wants them dead and only contacted me when he was up for the lynch is no choice at all.
That whole confusion would have netted us 3 wolves (evnafets, Kyouhen and Recaiden) if we had just followed through with it to the end instead of taking detours with people I knew weren't wolves.
Quote:
True. I looked over your list and revised it, updated it. And guess what, I got me a Threat. Two of them in fact.
And you killed a neutral when you could have killed Recaiden plus one of two villagers that I said were villagers from the very start and had Jontom confirm the other I had down as villager.
Quote:
Jontom didn't lead. I lead. He mostly listened to my suggestions. The only thing he gave us was an invincible Proxy, and that Toasty was a villager.
An invincible proxy that didn't count as a villager and he confirmed someone I had put down as villager from the start.
Quote:
Aemoh was pretty low on your list as well, if memory serves. Because he's always quiet.
There were four Possible threats left. Billtodamax, Selrahc, Szilard, and Aemoh.
I had a feeling, an incorrect one apperently, that Aemoh was not a threat.
But since I don't recall the PM I sent to Jontom, before I died, I'll have to depend on him to show the order I chose to go after the final four unknowns.
Summary of what my final pm had:
Safe: Fleeing Coward, EagleWiz, Uncle Festy, RedScholarGypsy, Lex-Kat
Neutrals: Banjo, Jontom, Bitzeralisis
Unknowns:
Selrahc, Toasty: Villagers in my book.
Happyturtle: Leaning to villager, beginning to have doubts.
Inavegt: Leaning to villager, look at if Recaiden isn't wolf.
Billtodamax: Leaning towards villager.
Mechafox: Leaning towards villager based on votes/claim. Some doubts because his name hasn't come up since day 1.
Kuma Da: Yoyo of the list - ha him down as both vllager and wolf at different points.
Pondshadow, The Bushranger, Aemoh: Too little to draw conclusions.
Szilard: Leaning towards wolf - noted personal bias due to him pointing at me.
Mustaido: Leaning towards wolf - too quiet and evnafet's point. Lynch immediately if he starts using shoddy logic.
Recaiden : Lynch the wolf. Only doubt is maybe it's too obvious.
__________________
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLaughingMan
He's Fleeing Coward. The man could be a cookie-baking, cancer-stricken orphan kitten and still look like a reasonable suspect.
Last edited by Fleeing Coward : 06-28-2009 at 12:02 AM.
What other than the role claiming made you so sure I was a wolf?
Combination of telling me to sacrifice myself (you can disagree and even not listen but telling a confirmed mason to kill himself?) Kyouhen admitting he's wolf so easily and the lack of support I got the day after that made me suspect enough that I didn't think it was necessary for a scry.
__________________
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLaughingMan
He's Fleeing Coward. The man could be a cookie-baking, cancer-stricken orphan kitten and still look like a reasonable suspect.
The game hinged on the day Banjo was lynched, letting Recaiden reset his daybane. That cost the village three days that could have been spent lynching threats.
Until the day I was lynched, I was completely blind. So I was just trying to muddy up the waters and cause as much chaos as possible, while putting a big 'LYNCH ME!' sign on myself. I like being a blind wolf.
I'm surprised outing myself to draw attention away from Recaiden actually worked. Wouldn't people have suspected that Recaiden would be one of the more powerful wolves?
Yea and I forgot about the pm I sent Aemoh asking him to change to evnafets and I knew he was online. Could have got 5 from 5 from my picks if I remembered that when I was drawing up my list
__________________
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLaughingMan
He's Fleeing Coward. The man could be a cookie-baking, cancer-stricken orphan kitten and still look like a reasonable suspect.
Well, at least me getting lynched was a defining moment for some reason, even if it wasn't a good one.
I've calmed down quite significantly since when I got lynched, so I'm not going to shout at the villager or make any WTF comments, I did enough of that to myself a while ago. All I'll say is that Jontom is a master at these games, and just took an opportunity to get me out the way when it presented itself. That enough people went along with it shocked the hell out of me, but then again the blue guy with the spiky teeth can be very persuasive.
I can also claim that I'm so unpopular I can get lynched even when there's a known wolf around who's guaranteed uprotected...that's a good claim to have.
And now I think people might like to hear my point of view.
After Fleeing Coward stabbed me in the back, when I fully intended to help the villagers win, I switched to being fully determined to make the villagers lose. But after Kyouhen was lynched I never heard from them again.
I didn't give Uncle Festy's name to the wolves. Ok, so I did, but I didn't. You see the thing is that when Fleeing Coward told me Uncle Festy's name I 100% didn't believe him. I figured Uncle Festy as a scried villager and that the whole thing was a trap. At first I thought it was a trap just for me and then I realised they could trap me AND a wolf if they targetted Uncle Festy with the ability of Simone. And I told ALL that to the wolves.
After a few days I started scrying suspected masons so that when (ever the optimist) the wolves got in touch with me I would have some good info for them.
Then I got a bit bored of that and one day realised that a day's voting had been very revealing giving Mustiado and Toasty as possible wolves so I scried Toasty and got him cleared as a villager. I think the other masons had got in touch by this time, and I had also been in touch with Lex-Kat (had been trying to find a mason but found a villager) who turned out to be in touch with the masons too. That being in contact with the good guys, plus the realisation around this time that I only needed the day baner dead to win, really put me firmly on Team Good's side.
I think around this time I was after me for the win - hence the Banjo thing, but I hadn't really been paying attention properly or I really would have waited until the next day. I'd like to apologise to everyone for that one. However I really did suspect Banjo of feeding info to the wolves. Not very much, but there really was suspicion there. Mostly I just wanted him dead Sorry, Banjo but that's the game.
Anyway I was amazed when the wolves finally came out with the big blackmail about me helping them. Way too little too late, guys. By then I only needed the day baner dead and I had won. My fortunes were firmly tied in with helping the good guys, had been for days, and the good guys knew it due to actually getting some genuinely good intel from me.
And so up to last night. This was meant to be a precis, but I've just realised it's a wall of text.
I actually posted, edited, deleted several posts in thread aimed at Aemoh. I did a lengthy analysis at the end of which I realised that the bad guys had a 50-50 chance of winning no matter what I did. Even if I successfully daybaned the target of the wolf's night kill, there was still a 50-50 chance of him winning the lynch depending on who voted in what order. I thought about trying to bluf him into night-killing EagleWiz (which would have given the villagers the win), but realised that I had not enough handle on Aemoh to predict how to manipulate him and that the best bet was to bane myself and stand clear.
I'd like to apologise to the villagers for helping the bad guys win through my ineptitude.
1) Bad day to pick to lynch Banjo.
2) Should NEVER have followed Lex-Kat's suspicions. As an old sensei once told me, rely on yourself and not on others for no-one is as reliable as your own well-disciplined self.
3) Should have realised it was Aemoh and not Selrahc. I think one weekend earlier when I did the original analysis I had thought that Aemoh might be more suspicious than Selrahc. I also should have checked time stamps. Lastly Selrahs made some very good points in his defence, but after the fiasco of Billtodamax I just went back to not being swayed at all.
But the biggest award for mis-judgement has to go to Fleeing Coward. Ever heard of a self full-filling prophecy? Accusing me of helping the wolves after I made a good try at being the most possible use to the villagers, to the point of making a serious effort to get me lynched even, is EXACTLY the way to get me helping the wolves. It's just very very lucky for the villagers that the wolves didn't trust me or the game would have been a walk-over for the wolves.
Anyway, thanks to everyone for the most interesting game for a long time, but mostly to the narrator, who I would like to offer my highest praises. They say the best balanced rules lead to the closest finish in the end. This had a 50% more or less random chance of who won. It was hugely fun, and very vey interesting. Sign me up for the next one!
__________________
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowcaller
Damn Jontom and his twisting logic that make sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjo1985
Nothing personal JX, I just know how completely devious and brilliant you are at these games when you have the time to devote to them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjo1985
All I'll say is that Jontom is a master at these games ... the blue guy with the spiky teeth can be very persuasive.
Combination of telling me to sacrifice myself (you can disagree and even not listen but telling a confirmed mason to kill himself?) Kyouhen admitting he's wolf so easily and the lack of support I got the day after that made me suspect enough that I didn't think it was necessary for a scry.
I'm going to chime in with my 2 cents.
I have been keeping an eye on this game after I died.
Re FC's truth-telling ability, I thought it was overpowered.
Two things about it I didn't like
1 - It was effectively a seer scry. People just made blanket statements that they knew nothing about, and the ability was able to determine the truth or not of that statement. To my mind the ability should have been limited to information that the person actually knew was true. Role claims, scries etc
So something like "I am a villager" or "FC contacted me before he died and told me..." could be scried as true or false but not "<insert random name here> is a wolf" when the person saying that has no actual knowledge on the subject.
2 - The real overpoweredness of it was that the ability belonged to a mason. I think a group of masons knowing eachother is powerful in itself. Giving them a bunch of abilities as well makes them too powerful IMO.
--------------
With regards to how my game went, after I got "scried" as a wolf, Jontom did actually contact me and offered to help team Evil. We were swapping messages back and forth. I basically threw myself under the wagon to save him, with the hope that he would actually get the wolf team across the line. My original intent was to force a "no lynch" - which we almost did, but votes came off Jontom just a little too early for it to happen.
I'm going to chime in with my 2 cents.
I have been keeping an eye on this game after I died.
Re FC's truth-telling ability, I thought it was overpowered.
Two things about it I didn't like
1 - It was effectively a seer scry. People just made blanket statements that they knew nothing about, and the ability was able to determine the truth or not of that statement. To my mind the ability should have been limited to information that the person actually knew was true. Role claims, scries etc
So something like "I am a villager" or "FC contacted me before he died and told me..." could be scried as true or false but not "<insert random name here> is a wolf" when the person saying that has no actual knowledge on the subject.
2 - The real overpoweredness of it was that the ability belonged to a mason. I think a group of masons knowing eachother is powerful in itself. Giving them a bunch of abilities as well makes them too powerful IMO.
I thought we should have simply disallowed making statements for the explicit purpose of being tested, myself.
Two things about it I didn't like
1 - It was effectively a seer scry. People just made blanket statements that they knew nothing about, and the ability was able to determine the truth or not of that statement. To my mind the ability should have been limited to information that the person actually knew was true. Role claims, scries etc
So something like "I am a villager" or "FC contacted me before he died and told me..." could be scried as true or false but not "<insert random name here> is a wolf" when the person saying that has no actual knowledge on the subject.
Unless you run it as a secret role, it's always going to be effectively a seer. Because if people know the good guys have a truth detector then people on the good guys side will give him statements to scry, and bad guys will be forced into making their own statements or looking out of place.
EDIT: I do like the idea of making the lie detector a secret role.
Quote:
2 - The real overpoweredness of it was that the ability belonged to a mason. I think a group of masons knowing eachother is powerful in itself. Giving them a bunch of abilities as well makes them too powerful IMO.
I thought that was actually balanced pretty well. Remember that only one could take a turn per night. There might have been two seers, but there were only half as many scries going on as would happen in a normal game.
I'm going to chime in with my 2 cents.
I have been keeping an eye on this game after I died.
Re FC's truth-telling ability, I thought it was overpowered.
Two things about it I didn't like
1 - It was effectively a seer scry. People just made blanket statements that they knew nothing about, and the ability was able to determine the truth or not of that statement. To my mind the ability should have been limited to information that the person actually knew was true. Role claims, scries etc
So something like "I am a villager" or "FC contacted me before he died and told me..." could be scried as true or false but not "<insert random name here> is a wolf" when the person saying that has no actual knowledge on the subject.
2 - The real overpoweredness of it was that the ability belonged to a mason. I think a group of masons knowing eachother is powerful in itself. Giving them a bunch of abilities as well makes them too powerful IMO.
1) I see no problem with that seer-like ability since until late game, it's still only 2 scries every 4 days like Selrahc said and to be anymore effective, the Lie Detector had to take increasingly bigger risks by including more people. Add to that the only real way to stay hidden is if another villager took the initiative to post truth/lie messages and I don't believe it's overpowered at all.
2) Normally, I'd agree with you the masons with powers can be extremely overpowered but in this case there's only 4 of them in a 30 player game and it's not like they could all use them at the same time. Add to that the fact the wolves had a day baner, I'd go as far as saying that it's the wolves that could be overpowered given the circumstances.
Personally, I don't really see the roles been too unbalanced this game and I still believe that Shadowcaller chose to restrict Aegnor's abilities abit too much.
__________________
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLaughingMan
He's Fleeing Coward. The man could be a cookie-baking, cancer-stricken orphan kitten and still look like a reasonable suspect.
How about this. Make it so the lie detector is a secret role, and allow it to use it's power every night. Make it so the lie detector cannot use their ability on their own comments. They have no connections when they start and need someone else to make a list of claims if they want to use it that way. I agree that it should only work on things the person knows, but then the narrator has to start keeping track of what everybody knows or ask them specifically if they're lying about something. If they have to ask the person who's comment is being scried knows what's going on.
I'm going to chime in with my 2 cents.
I have been keeping an eye on this game after I died.
Re FC's truth-telling ability, I thought it was overpowered.
Two things about it I didn't like
1 - It was effectively a seer scry. People just made blanket statements that they knew nothing about, and the ability was able to determine the truth or not of that statement. To my mind the ability should have been limited to information that the person actually knew was true. Role claims, scries etc
So something like "I am a villager" or "FC contacted me before he died and told me..." could be scried as true or false but not "<insert random name here> is a wolf" when the person saying that has no actual knowledge on the subject.
2 - The real overpoweredness of it was that the ability belonged to a mason. I think a group of masons knowing eachother is powerful in itself. Giving them a bunch of abilities as well makes them too powerful IMO.
Firstly I think the lie detetctor ability is fine - if it is done as a LIE detector ability.
If people make statements they know nothing about then the answer comes back as "that statement is a lie" because the narrator knows that the person making it doesn't have the information required, and are just makign up random stuff that is probably incorrect. In other words the author of the statement knows/believes that the statement has no foundation in truth, so it is counted as a lie.
Secondly if you make a mass statement, even if you know all the truth in all of it, if one small part of it is incorrect then, in effect and speaking logically, all of it is a lie. You don't get selective answers like "this bit is true but that bit and that bit is false). Essentially it works like a computer programming statement. So if someone says:
1=1
2=2
3=4
5=5
Then to test that you get:
if(1=1 AND 2=2 AND 3=4 AND 5=5) then TRUE
That statement will produce a FALSE result even though most of it is true.
The effect of this is that the lie detector cannot use his/her ability on huge swathes of text which may well contain small inconsequential incorrect statements because they will get told it is a lie even though the basic jist of the statement as a whole is true. They have to use their ability on small pieces only.
So to sum up:
If the person making a statement is just posting stuff they have no idea about:- the result is false.
If the statement contains something incorrect no matter how small and inconsequential:- the result is false.
You could also have it so that if a person posts something they BELIEVE is true, even if it is false, then that comes up as true.
So fool scries person A who is wolf as villager. Fool tells person B who is villager that person A is villager. Person B posts that Person A is villager. If lie detector ability is used then result is TRUE, even though the statement is in fact false. The problem with doing that is that it is difficult for the narrator to know all the PMs passing around - he would have to PM person B and ask them on what basis they made that statement which would then tip person B off to the fact that the lie detector ability was being made on that statement.
Quote:
With regards to how my game went, after I got "scried" as a wolf, Jontom did actually contact me and offered to help team Evil. We were swapping messages back and forth. I basically threw myself under the wagon to save him, with the hope that he would actually get the wolf team across the line. My original intent was to force a "no lynch" - which we almost did, but votes came off Jontom just a little too early for it to happen.
A sacrifice that was completely wasted due to the wolf team not getting in contact with me at all all game with the result that I ended up working for team good after all.
__________________
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowcaller
Damn Jontom and his twisting logic that make sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjo1985
Nothing personal JX, I just know how completely devious and brilliant you are at these games when you have the time to devote to them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjo1985
All I'll say is that Jontom is a master at these games ... the blue guy with the spiky teeth can be very persuasive.
The problem with doing that is that it is difficult for the narrator to know all the PMs passing around - he would have to PM person B and ask them on what basis they made that statement which would then tip person B off to the fact that the lie detector ability was being made on that statement.
The simple method would be to require all PMs to be CCed to the Narrator. Of course, the problem with this then, is that people can "cheat" and not CC the narrator.
The simple method would be to require all PMs to be CCed to the Narrator. Of course, the problem with this then, is that people can "cheat" and not CC the narrator.
Also the problem would be the sheer amount of PMs the narrator would receive.
I, for one, when networking, talk a lot via IM which is not really sendable to the narrator, but I still use around 15-30 PMs per day/night phase depending on how much I'm networking.
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Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamech
Trusting Murska worked out great!
Quote:
Originally Posted by happyturtle
A Murska without lies is like a day without sunshine.
A sacrifice that was completely wasted due to the wolf team not getting in contact with me at all all game with the result that I ended up working for team good after all.
And we all saw how well you working for team good worked out, didn't we?
I still say the lie detector ability should work as normal but start as a secret role and be unable to use it on their own comments.
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Re: Tales of Kyou II: The Darkness (Game Thread)
Lexdoll by Recaiden
Interested in Nexus FFRP? Read 
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