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Old 08-26-2009, 03:45 AM   Top  -  End  -  #1
PId6
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: 
Elemental Plane of Paper
Gender: Male
Default [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and more)

Updates:

9/8/2009 - Added revised assassin and eldritch knight PrCs.
8/28/2009 - Changed swashbuckler to medium BAB and two good saves. Also restricted its ability to use Extra Granted Maneuvers and added some Int synergy class features.
8/27/2009 - Edited ranger based on some suggestions. Most notably, removed a few of the less useful space-taking abilities like Instinctive Cartographer and Pathfinder. Also removed some of the clutter from Dragon Shaman, so it no longer gets Low-Light Vision, Darkvision, and DR/magic.

Introduction:

In my opinion, there are numerous classes in 3.5 that have a lot of potential but are just not fun. You end up doing the same thing over and over with very little variety, unlike casters or ToB classes who have numerous options in battle. I also despise dead levels and try to remove them wherever I go, as well as limit MAD where I see it, since both of these come at the detriment of the classes that have them. Thus, this is my attempt at fixing a few a few classes to make them more fun to play.

A warning I should make first: I'm of the philosophy that balance isn't really the most important aspect of D&D. This isn't PvP, so in my opinion, it's not that important that casters are Tier 1 while ToB is only Tier 3, as long as everybody can have fun and nobody's out to break the game. And so, these revised classes will have a higher power level than before. Generally, I'm aiming for a ToB level of power, though some may over or undershoot this measure. Nothing should be more powerful than full casters though (unless they already are full casters), and nothing should be more powerful than wizard/cleric/druid.

Base Classes:

Dragon Shaman
Marshal
Ranger
Soulknife
Swashbuckler

Prestige Classes:

Arcane Archer
Assassin
Dragon Disciple
Eldritch Knight
Illumine Soul
Soulbow
__________________
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Potpourri Creation Contest II Winner: Desert Martial Adept Substitution Levels
Potpourri Creation Contest III Best Characterization: Edward the Sly's Lucky Spells
Prestige Class Contest XXI Submission: Child of the Seelie Court

Last edited by PId6 : 09-08-2009 at 05:27 AM.
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Old 08-26-2009, 03:46 AM   Top  -  End  -  #2
PId6
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

Marshal



Game Rule Information

Marshals have the following game statistics:

Abilities: As before.
Alignment: Any.
Starting Gold: 5d4 x 10 (125 gp)
Hit Die: d8
Class Skills: As before.

Level
Bab
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
Minor Auras
Major Auras
Maneuvers Known
Stances Known
1st
+0
2
0
2
Minor Aura, Bolstering Voice
1
0
1
1
2nd
+1
3
0
3
Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Leader’s Courage
1
0
1
1
3rd
+2
3
1
3
Battlefield Tactics 1/encounter
2
0
1
1
4th
+3
4
1
4
Major Aura +1
2
1
1
1
5th
+3
4
1
4
Guiding Voice
2
1
2
2
6th
+4
5
2
5
1st Legionnaire
2
1
2
2
7th
+5
5
2
5
Battlefield Tactics 2/encounter, Leader’s Will
3
1
2
2
8th
+6
6
2
6
Major Aura +2
3
2
2
2
9th
+6
6
3
6
Reinforcing Voice
3
2
3
3
10th
+7
7
3
7
2nd Legionnaire
3
2
3
3
11th
+8
7
3
7
Battlefield Tactics 3/encounter
4
2
3
3
12th
+9
8
4
8
Major Aura +3
4
3
3
3
13th
+9
8
4
8
Daunting Voice, Leader’s Endurance
4
3
4
4
14th
+10
9
4
9
3rd Legionnaire
4
3
4
4
15th
+11
9
5
9
Battlefield Tactics 4/encounter
5
3
4
4
16th
+12
10
5
10
Major Aura +4
5
4
4
4
17th
+12
10
5
10
Rousing Voice
5
4
5
5
18th
+13
11
6
11
4th Legionnaire
5
4
5
5
19th
+14
11
6
11
Battlefield Tactics at will, Leader’s Determination
6
4
5
5
20th
+15
12
6
12
Major Aura +5, Legion of Steel, Supreme Leadership
6
5
5
5

Class Features

Spoiler
__________________
Rogue Handbook | Warmage Rebuild | Diablo's Assassin | Revised Classes
Potpourri Creation Contest II Winner: Desert Martial Adept Substitution Levels
Potpourri Creation Contest III Best Characterization: Edward the Sly's Lucky Spells
Prestige Class Contest XXI Submission: Child of the Seelie Court
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Old 08-26-2009, 03:48 AM   Top  -  End  -  #3
PId6
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

Dragon Shaman

Game Rule Information

Dragon shamans have the following game statistics:

Abilities: As before, but you no longer need Charisma.
Alignment: As before.
Starting Gold: 4d4 x 10 (100 gp)
Hit Die: d12
Class Skills: As before.

Level
Bab
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
Breath Weapon
Auras Known
1st
+1
2
0
2
Draconic Aura +1, Totem Dragon
-
3
2nd
+2
3
0
3
Skill Focus, Natural Armor +1
1d8 (15 ft cone or 30 ft line)
3
3rd
+3
3
1
3
Draconic Adaptation, Wings (gliding)
1d8 (15 ft cone or 30 ft line)
4
4th
+4
4
1
4
Draconic Resolve
2d8 (15 ft cone or 30 ft line)
4
5th
+5
4
1
4
Draconic Aura +2
2d8 (15 ft cone or 30 ft line)
5
6th
+6
5
2
5
Touch of Vitality (heal wounds)
3d8 (15 ft cone or 30 ft line)
5
7th
+7
5
2
5
Wings (limited flight), Natural Armor +2
3d8 (15 ft cone or 30 ft line)
6
8th
+8
6
2
6
Skill Focus
4d8 (30 ft cone or 60 ft line)
6
9th
+9
6
3
6
Energy Immunity, Frightful Presence
4d8 (30 ft cone or 60 ft line)
7
10th
+10
7
3
7
Draconic Aura +3
5d8 (30 ft cone or 60 ft line)
7
11th
+11
7
3
7
Touch of Vitality (remove conditions), Dragon Ally (Lesser)
5d8 (30 ft cone or 60 ft line)
8
12th
+12
8
4
8
Natural Armor +3, Blindsense 30
6d8 (30 ft cone or 60 ft line)
8
13th
+13
8
4
8
Draconic Adaptation (share with allies), Greater Adaptation
6d8 (30 ft cone or 60 ft line)
9
14th
+14
9
4
9
Commune with Dragon Spirit, Dragon Ally (Normal)
7d8 (45 ft cone or 90 ft line)
9
15th
+15
9
5
9
Wings (permanent flight), Draconic Aura +4
7d8 (45 ft cone or 90 ft line)
10
16th
+16
10
5
10
Skill Focus
8d8 (45 ft cone or 90 ft line)
10
17th
+17
10
5
10
Natural Armor +4, Dragon Ally (Greater)
8d8 (45 ft cone or 90 ft line)
11
18th
+18
11
6
11
Blindsense 60
9d8 (45 ft cone or 90 ft line)
11
19th
+19
11
6
11
Wings (greater flight)
9d8 (45 ft cone or 90 ft line)
12
20th
+20
12
6
12
Draconic Aura +5, Dragon Ally (Supreme), Double Aura
10d8 (60 ft cone or 120 ft line)
12

Class Features

Spoiler

Updated: 8/27/2009
__________________
Rogue Handbook | Warmage Rebuild | Diablo's Assassin | Revised Classes
Potpourri Creation Contest II Winner: Desert Martial Adept Substitution Levels
Potpourri Creation Contest III Best Characterization: Edward the Sly's Lucky Spells
Prestige Class Contest XXI Submission: Child of the Seelie Court

Last edited by PId6 : 08-27-2009 at 11:22 PM.
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Old 08-26-2009, 03:52 AM   Top  -  End  -  #4
PId6
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

Arcane Archer



Requirements
To qualify to become an arcane archer, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.

Base Attack Bonus: +3.
Skills: 4 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana).
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot.
Weapon Proficiency: Proficiency with shortbow or longbow.
Spells: Able to cast 1st level arcane spells.

Level
Bab
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
Spellcasting
1st
+1
2
2
0
Armored Spellcaster, Enhance Arrow +1
+1
2nd
+2
3
3
0
Imbue Arrow, Bonus Feat
3rd
+3
3
3
1
Arrow of Magic, Enhance Arrow +2
+1
4th
+4
4
4
1
Seeker Arrow
+1
5th
+5
4
4
1
Arrow of Eyes, Enhance Arrow +3
+1
6th
+6
5
5
2
Phase Arrow, Bonus Feat
+1
7th
+7
5
5
2
Quiver of Magic, Enhance Arrow +4
8th
+8
6
6
2
Versatile Enchantments
+1
9th
+9
6
6
3
Enhance Arrow +5
+1
10th
+10
7
7
3
Hail of Arrows, Bonus Feat
+1

Hit Die: d8

Class Skills (6 + Int modifier per level): Balance (Dex), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).

Class Features
Spoiler
__________________
Rogue Handbook | Warmage Rebuild | Diablo's Assassin | Revised Classes
Potpourri Creation Contest II Winner: Desert Martial Adept Substitution Levels
Potpourri Creation Contest III Best Characterization: Edward the Sly's Lucky Spells
Prestige Class Contest XXI Submission: Child of the Seelie Court
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Old 08-26-2009, 04:00 AM   Top  -  End  -  #5
PId6
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: 
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Gender: Male
Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

Ranger



Game Rule Information

Rangers have the following game statistics:

Abilities: As before.
Alignment: Any.
Starting Gold: 6d4 x 10 (150 gp)
Hit Die: d8
Class Skills: As before.

Level
Bab
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
Fast Movement
1
2
3
4
1st
+1
2
2
0
1st Favored Enemy, Track, Wild Empathy
+0 ft
0
-
-
-
2nd
+2
3
3
0
Bonus Feat, Animal Companion
+0 ft
1
-
-
-
3rd
+3
3
3
1
Skirmish (+1d6)
+0 ft
2
-
-
-
4th
+4
4
4
1
Woodland Stride, Woodland Hunter
+0 ft
2
-
-
-
5th
+5
4
4
1
2nd Favored Enemy, Bonus Feat
+10 ft
3
0
-
-
6th
+6
5
5
2
Skirmish (+2d6, +1 AC)
+10 ft
3
1
-
-
7th
+7
5
5
2
Natural Instinct (Scent), Woodland Sprint
+10 ft
3
2
-
-
8th
+8
6
6
2
Bonus Feat
+10 ft
4
2
-
-
9th
+9
6
6
3
Skirmish (+3d6, +2 AC)
+10 ft
4
3
0
-
10th
+10
7
7
3
3rd Favored Enemy, Evasion
+10 ft
4
3
1
-
11th
+11
7
7
3
Bonus Feat, Nature’s Messengers
+20 ft
4
3
2
-
12th
+12
8
8
4
Skirmish (+4d6, +3 AC)
+20 ft
5
4
2
-
13th
+13
8
8
4
Natural Instinct (Blindsense), Camouflage
+20 ft
5
4
3
0
14th
+14
9
9
4
Bonus Feat
+20 ft
5
4
3
1
15th
+15
9
9
5
4th Favored Enemy, Skirmish (+5d6, +4 AC)
+20 ft
5
4
3
2
16th
+16
10
10
5
Hide in Plain Sight
+20 ft
5
5
4
2
17th
+17
10
10
5
Bonus Feat
+30 ft
6
5
4
3
18th
+18
11
11
6
Skirmish (+6d6, +5 AC)
+30 ft
6
5
4
3
19th
+19
11
11
6
Natural Instinct (Foresight)
+30 ft
6
5
4
3
20th
+20
12
12
6
5th Favored Enemy, Bonus Feat, Unnatural Instinct
+30 ft
6
5
5
4

Class Features

Spoiler

Updated: 9/1/2009
__________________
Rogue Handbook | Warmage Rebuild | Diablo's Assassin | Revised Classes
Potpourri Creation Contest II Winner: Desert Martial Adept Substitution Levels
Potpourri Creation Contest III Best Characterization: Edward the Sly's Lucky Spells
Prestige Class Contest XXI Submission: Child of the Seelie Court

Last edited by PId6 : 09-05-2009 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 08-26-2009, 04:14 AM   Top  -  End  -  #6
PId6
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

Swashbuckler


Game Rule Information

Swashbucklers have the following game statistics:

Abilities: As before.
Alignment: Any.
Starting Gold: 5d4 x 10 (125 gp)
Hit Die: d8
Class Skills (4 + Int modifier per level): Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Nobility), Martial Lore (Int), Perform (Cha), Profession (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Rope (Dex).

Level
Bab
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
Maneuvers Known
Maneuvers Readied
Stances Known
1st
+0
2
2
0
Weapon Finesse, Grace +1
5
5 (2)
1
2nd
+1
3
3
0
Dramatic Entrance, Strength of Intellect
5
5 (2)
1
3rd
+2
3
3
1
Dashing Strike 1/encounter
6
5 (2)
1
4th
+3
4
4
1
Combat Reflexes
6
5 (2)
2
5th
+3
4
4
1
Grace +2, Uncanny Dodge
7
5 (2)
2
6th
+4
5
5
2
Dramatic Acrobatics
7
5 (2)
2
7th
+5
5
5
2
Strike of Insight
8
5 (2)
2
8th
+6
6
6
2
Dramatic Irony
8
5 (2)
2
9th
+6
6
6
3
Improved Uncanny Dodge
9
5 (2)
2
10th
+7
7
7
3
Grace +3
9
6 (3)
3
11th
+8
7
7
3
 
10
6 (3)
3
12th
+9
8
8
4
Dramatic Moment 1/day
10
6 (3)
3
13th
+9
8
8
4
Acrobatic Mastery
11
6 (3)
3
14th
+10
9
9
4
Dashing Strike 2/encounter
11
6 (3)
3
15th
+11
9
9
5
Grace +4
12
6 (3)
3
16th
+12
10
10
5
Dramatic Opportunity
12
6 (3)
4
17th
+12
10
10
5
Dramatic Moment 2/day
13
6 (3)
4
18th
+13
11
11
6
Certainty of Cunning
13
6 (3)
4
19th
+14
11
11
6
 
14
6 (3)
4
20th
+15
12
12
6
Grace +5, Dramatic Victory
14
7 (4)
4

Class Features

Spoiler

Updated: 9/1/2009
__________________
Rogue Handbook | Warmage Rebuild | Diablo's Assassin | Revised Classes
Potpourri Creation Contest II Winner: Desert Martial Adept Substitution Levels
Potpourri Creation Contest III Best Characterization: Edward the Sly's Lucky Spells
Prestige Class Contest XXI Submission: Child of the Seelie Court

Last edited by PId6 : 09-01-2009 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 08-26-2009, 12:25 PM   Top  -  End  -  #7
Draz74
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: 
San Diego
Gender: Male
Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

Swashbuckler: Pretty good. Good BAB, hit die, skill point, Discipline selection, and class skill choices. I'm particularly glad to see that you added Disguise, Perform, and Know (nobility) to his skill list.

The Crusader recovery method of maneuvers was a surprise, but I can see why it would be a flavorful match for the spontaneity of the Swashbuckler. It is widely considered the best recovery method in ToB, however, and the Swashbuckler's Disciplines are arguably stronger or at least easier to use than the Crusader's Disciplines. (Four Disciplines instead of three, and none of them so dependent on teammates as White Raven.) Still, since the Swashbuckler's other class features aren't very impressive in general, you're probably ok with using the Crusader recovery method. Question: can the Swashbuckler take feats that formerly were specific to the Crusader's mechanics, such as Extra Granted Maneuver? That feat is pretty much automatically selected by all Crusaders. Perhaps not allowing it is exactly the right nerf to quell my fears about the Swashbuckler being a bit too strong ...

Love Dramatic Entrance. Talk about flavor.

Are there any class features that are still Intelligence-dependent? I didn't see any as I looked through the class, but I may have missed something. I hope there is still some INT synergy. While I agree with you that the CW Swashbuckler wasn't nearly as Charisma-dependent as he should have been, I don't think INT is an inappropriate focus either.

My only big problem with the class, though, is Grace. I think it would be much more appropriate for the Swashbuckler to have a full good Reflex save, rather than a "medium save" due to Grace bonuses. If anything, perhaps it would be best to give the class poor Fortitude and good Reflex, then have the Grace ability (possibly renamed) add to Fortitude, AC, and initiative.
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Old 08-26-2009, 06:16 PM   Top  -  End  -  #8
PId6
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
Swashbuckler: Pretty good. Good BAB, hit die, skill point, Discipline selection, and class skill choices. I'm particularly glad to see that you added Disguise, Perform, and Know (nobility) to his skill list.
Thanks! Yeah, I was really surprised the original didn't get Perform as a class skill. I mean, what kind of swashbucker doesn't know how to sing or dance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
The Crusader recovery method of maneuvers was a surprise, but I can see why it would be a flavorful match for the spontaneity of the Swashbuckler. It is widely considered the best recovery method in ToB, however, and the Swashbuckler's Disciplines are arguably stronger or at least easier to use than the Crusader's Disciplines. (Four Disciplines instead of three, and none of them so dependent on teammates as White Raven.)
Yeah, I was afraid of making it too strong, but those four disciplines are just so fitting. I suppose if I were to cut one out, it would be Tiger Strike, but the jumping and two-weapon maneuvers all seem to fit too well, if you refluff them away from the "predator" standpoint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
Still, since the Swashbuckler's other class features aren't very impressive in general, you're probably ok with using the Crusader recovery method. Question: can the Swashbuckler take feats that formerly were specific to the Crusader's mechanics, such as Extra Granted Maneuver? That feat is pretty much automatically selected by all Crusaders. Perhaps not allowing it is exactly the right nerf to quell my fears about the Swashbuckler being a bit too strong ...
Hmm, that is a possibility. I had written it in there that you can take Extra Granted Maneuver, but it might be a good idea from a balance perspective to avoid allowing that.

What about increasing the number of readied maneuvers instead? Just increasing readied maneuvers by 1 while leaving granted maneuvers the same? You'd have to rely more on luck to get what you want, so Extra Granted Maneuver might not be so bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
Love Dramatic Entrance. Talk about flavor.
Heh, thanks. A lot of these are inspired by Elan and the Dashing Swordsman PrC. Certainly helps tip you towards the reckless side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
Are there any class features that are still Intelligence-dependent? I didn't see any as I looked through the class, but I may have missed something. I hope there is still some INT synergy. While I agree with you that the CW Swashbuckler wasn't nearly as Charisma-dependent as he should have been, I don't think INT is an inappropriate focus either.
I avoided Int abilities since I wanted to avoid MAD. You already need three attributes (Dex, Con, Cha), and Int is still necessary for skill points. I can add some Int focus, but I'm just not sure what to add. Insightful Strike isn't so necessary when you can use maneuvers like, well, Insightful Strike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
My only big problem with the class, though, is Grace. I think it would be much more appropriate for the Swashbuckler to have a full good Reflex save, rather than a "medium save" due to Grace bonuses. If anything, perhaps it would be best to give the class poor Fortitude and good Reflex, then have the Grace ability (possibly renamed) add to Fortitude, AC, and initiative.
I see your point. I originally wanted good Reflex save, but having two good saves seemed a little strong, and Fortitude was more important. Now that I think about it though, you do have Diamond Mind so weak saves can be made up for (if you're a little lucky with granted maneuvers). This could make for some Int synergy though, if I can think of some reason for Int to Fortitude.
__________________
Rogue Handbook | Warmage Rebuild | Diablo's Assassin | Revised Classes
Potpourri Creation Contest II Winner: Desert Martial Adept Substitution Levels
Potpourri Creation Contest III Best Characterization: Edward the Sly's Lucky Spells
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Old 08-26-2009, 11:56 PM   Top  -  End  -  #9
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

Why god, why? Why did you have to remove insightful strike?!?! It's so important to me...
Other than that, looks good. But seriously. Insightful strike was awesome. Intelligence to damage hell yes.
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Old 08-27-2009, 12:05 AM   Top  -  End  -  #10
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

The whole point of Insightful Strike is to give swashbucklers good damage without having to have high Strength (and it failed, because you still need Power Attack). It just doesn't seem to serve much of a purpose, mechanics-wise or fluff-wise, when you have things like Ruby Nightmare Blade, Death from Above, and Greater Insightful Strike to do your damage for you. The various Concentration to damage maneuvers should take the role of Insightful Strike well enough, I'd imagine, and one of them is even called Insightful Strike!
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Old 08-27-2009, 12:11 AM   Top  -  End  -  #11
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

...
I still hate you.
(I guess I should say Swashbuckler is my favorite class to take a dip into. Specifically, a 3 level dip.)
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Old 08-27-2009, 12:13 AM   Top  -  End  -  #12
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

Don't worry, he can take insightful strike again by means of Diamong Mind .

Anyway. Nitpick. It' snot Tiger Strike, it is Tiger Claw.

Also, I think it would be good to change the ranger's fast movement to increments of 10 (+0, +10, +20, +30).

I am not sure how good an idea the four cohorts of the warlord are. Warriors or not. These guys aren't just another four full sets of BAB and hit points. They are 8+ extra skill points to put in things you don't want to give the warlord himself (crafts, Listen, Spot, professions, etc).
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Old 08-27-2009, 12:41 AM   Top  -  End  -  #13
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

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Anyway. Nitpick. It' snot Tiger Strike, it is Tiger Claw.
Oops, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Draken View Post
Also, I think it would be good to change the ranger's fast movement to increments of 10 (+0, +10, +20, +30).
Most fast movement abilities are in increments of 10, true, but +5s aren't completely without precedent (dervish, for example). But I guess it would be a little neater with +10s. I can do that.

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I am not sure how good an idea the four cohorts of the warlord are. Warriors or not. These guys aren't just another four full sets of BAB and hit points. They are 8+ extra skill points to put in things you don't want to give the warlord himself (crafts, Listen, Spot, professions, etc).
Well keep in mind, normally you don't get to decide the details of your cohorts. Nice (or lazy) DMs might let you do it, but they'll probably object if you start breaking the system. Besides, there's only so much you can do with skill points when most of the good ones are cross-class. Feats, you can break, but still, you shouldn't be able to decide what they are besides in the most general sense (i.e. melee warrior vs tripper vs archer etc).
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Old 08-27-2009, 01:17 AM   Top  -  End  -  #14
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

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Thanks! Yeah, I was really surprised the original didn't get Perform as a class skill. I mean, what kind of swashbucker doesn't know how to sing or dance?
Yeah. I mean, one of the top five most iconic swashbucklers in all of literature is the Scarlet Pimpernel (the other four are the 3 Musketeers ) and what was his very best skill? Disguise.

Quote:
Yeah, I was afraid of making it too strong, but those four disciplines are just so fitting. I suppose if I were to cut one out, it would be Tiger Strike, but the jumping and two-weapon maneuvers all seem to fit too well, if you refluff them away from the "predator" standpoint.
The easy way to fix this would be to take away Tiger Claw, but create a new feat:
Quote:
Fencing Dagger Style
Prerequisites: Swashbuckler level 1; DEX 15; Two-Weapon Fighting; Jump 6 ranks
Benefits: You may now select Tiger Claw maneuvers and stances with your Swashbuckler maneuver progression.
While you wield a weapon in your off-hand, gain a +2 shield bonus to AC. You lose this bonus in any round in which you make an attack with your off-hand. Unlike the usual stacking rules for shield bonuses, this bonus stacks with any bonuses granted by the Two-Weapon Defense feats.
Quote:
Hmm, that is a possibility. I had written it in there that you can take Extra Granted Maneuver, but it might be a good idea from a balance perspective to avoid allowing that.

What about increasing the number of readied maneuvers instead? Just increasing readied maneuvers by 1 while leaving granted maneuvers the same? You'd have to rely more on luck to get what you want, so Extra Granted Maneuver might not be so bad.
Meh, feels safer to me to just keep the number of readied maneuvers the same, and disallow Extra Granted Maneuver. Increasing the number of readied maneuvers is both good and bad.

Quote:
I avoided Int abilities since I wanted to avoid MAD. You already need three attributes (Dex, Con, Cha), and Int is still necessary for skill points. I can add some Int focus, but I'm just not sure what to add. Insightful Strike isn't so necessary when you can use maneuvers like, well, Insightful Strike.
Yeah, I noticed when reading over your other classes that we don't really see eye-to-eye on MAD. I'm of the school of thought that MAD is actually good design for a class. (Note that while MAD is often cited as the source of the Monk's weakness, that the Swordsage is just as MAD and yet still powerful.)

Another consequence I'm not sure you've considered about removing Insightful Strike, though: I'm not sure you'll still preserve the light weapon tradition of the Swashbuckler. I could actually imagine Swashbucklers, using your version, who ignore their free Weapon Finesse feat, take Power Attack, and go around mauling things with a Greatsword. I mean, it's not as if Power Attack + greatsword + Emerald Razor isn't a good combo.

I'm not sure how to fix that, because I agree with you that the Swashbuckler doesn't really need an extra damage source so much anymore when he has Diamond Mind maneuvers. Make Grace bonuses only apply when the Swashbuckler has a free hand? Give a free Einhander bonus feat? (Both of these options kind of poke the TWF-Swashbuckler in the eye.)

Quote:
I see your point. I originally wanted good Reflex save, but having two good saves seemed a little strong, and Fortitude was more important. Now that I think about it though, you do have Diamond Mind so weak saves can be made up for (if you're a little lucky with granted maneuvers). This could make for some Int synergy though, if I can think of some reason for Int to Fortitude.
Yeah, fun idea, but I can't say INT-to-Fort makes any sense.

A couple other issues that have come up as I've thought more about this:

- This class is dangerously good for dipping. If that doesn't bother you, fine. But it could stand to have some of its Level 1 features pushed back a couple levels.
- I'm glad you delayed the 4th stance until 8th-level stances are accessible
- I guess I don't share your hatred of dead levels so much, at least not on classes that get things like maneuvers or spells at every level. Some of the class features you've put into these classes feel like they're not important or flavorful enough to be worth the bookkeeping; they're literally just there to fill in dead levels. Ick. The Swashbuckler isn't actually the worst offender here; it's a problem I have with several of your classes. (For a concrete example -- Rather than the Instinctive Cartographer ability, I'd rather just have Lay of the Land be on the Ranger spell list.)
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Old 08-27-2009, 02:59 PM   Top  -  End  -  #15
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

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The easy way to fix this would be to take away Tiger Claw, but create a new feat.
Still, some of the Tiger Claw maneuvers seem fitting even without TWF, like Sudden Leap for example. I think I'll just disallow Extra Granted Maneuver. That should be enough of a nerf to tone him down to crusader level, I hope.

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Yeah, I noticed when reading over your other classes that we don't really see eye-to-eye on MAD. I'm of the school of thought that MAD is actually good design for a class. (Note that while MAD is often cited as the source of the Monk's weakness, that the Swordsage is just as MAD and yet still powerful.)
It's not so much MAD itself that I dislike; picking one thing to specialize in is fine, like swordsage can do. But for some of them, it's just that there's almost no reason to take a stat since it only affects a small part of what the class does. Cha for rangers, for example. You get Wild Empathy, but nearly nothing else, and you have three or four other stats you need so there's almost no reason to take it whatsoever. If I can get two or three Int-based abilities for swashbuckler, then that would be fine, but if it's just one thing then it'd be a problem and a waste.

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Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
Another consequence I'm not sure you've considered about removing Insightful Strike, though: I'm not sure you'll still preserve the light weapon tradition of the Swashbuckler. I could actually imagine Swashbucklers, using your version, who ignore their free Weapon Finesse feat, take Power Attack, and go around mauling things with a Greatsword. I mean, it's not as if Power Attack + greatsword + Emerald Razor isn't a good combo.
Insightful Strike didn't remove that though, since you can still Power Attack with a rapier or just ignore Insightful Strike altogether since Power Attack does more damage.

I see three different combat styles for my idea of "swashbuckler"; a sword and dagger (TWF) style, a sword and shield (it's called swashbuckler for a reason), and a one-hand sword style. I think all three of those are supported fairly well, though you're right that Power Attack is still an option. What about going with 3/4 Bab? It would weaken the class a lot but it'd also let me give him two good saves as well as enforce the idea of "mobility fighter" by making full attacks less effective. Power Attack also becomes a lot weaker with less Bab, so you're more dependent on maneuvers. Extra Granted Maneuver might not even be so overpowered then. PrC access would be harder though.

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Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
I'm not sure how to fix that, because I agree with you that the Swashbuckler doesn't really need an extra damage source so much anymore when he has Diamond Mind maneuvers. Make Grace bonuses only apply when the Swashbuckler has a free hand? Give a free Einhander bonus feat? (Both of these options kind of poke the TWF-Swashbuckler in the eye.)
I don't really want to remove the possibility of TWF and sword/buckler. If it came down to it, I'd rather allow (but discourage) Power Attacking than disallow these styles.

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Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
Yeah, fun idea, but I can't say INT-to-Fort makes any sense.
Same here. *shrug*

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Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
- This class is dangerously good for dipping. If that doesn't bother you, fine. But it could stand to have some of its Level 1 features pushed back a couple levels.
I'd rather not push back Grace, if only because of my sense of aesthetics, and kicking back Weapon Finesse just screws over 1st level swashbucklers that dump Str. Meh, most ToB classes are really good dips. Two level swordsage for Quick to Act, Weapon Focus, Wis to AC, two stances, and a lot of maneuvers. Doesn't bother me that much in comparison.

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Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
- I'm glad you delayed the 4th stance until 8th-level stances are accessible
Yeah, I just used the warblade's stance progression. Much better.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
- I guess I don't share your hatred of dead levels so much, at least not on classes that get things like maneuvers or spells at every level. Some of the class features you've put into these classes feel like they're not important or flavorful enough to be worth the bookkeeping; they're literally just there to fill in dead levels. Ick. The Swashbuckler isn't actually the worst offender here; it's a problem I have with several of your classes. (For a concrete example -- Rather than the Instinctive Cartographer ability, I'd rather just have Lay of the Land be on the Ranger spell list.)
I see what you mean; some of them are overloaded with features. I'll try to cull out some of the useless ones.

On a side note, a lot of the favored enemy abilities are a bit of a stretch (literally, in the case of aberrations). If anyone can help me think up better ones, that'd be great.
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Old 08-27-2009, 09:13 PM   Top  -  End  -  #16
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

I'll be looking at your Ranger Variant today :P.

Spells
I'm not sure if I'm crazy about Rangers having 1st Level spells. Part of the Lore that caused Rangers to get reduced spellcasting is that they aren't instantly at one with nature to the degree that they can call upon Her powers.

Favored Enemy
Your powers are all pretty cool, well thought out, and not ridiculously Over Powered. I like that. I'm not crazy about classifying Dwarves as small humanoids though. They're only like a foot shorter then the average human (4 feet-ish).

Wild Empathy
Charisma to Wisdom makes no sense. Essentially, the Wild Empathy ability allows a Ranger to make Diplomacy checks with animals. Not only that, but you run the risk of your players dumping all their points into Wisdom. Especially if your Ranger takes the Zen Archery feat from Complete Warrior.

Bonus Feat
I don't think your version of the Ranger really needs a bonus feat every 3 levels, but that's just me. I can't want to see what you're gonna do to the Fighter if you're giving the Ranger all this :P.

Woodland Hunter
Fun and fluffy. I like it.

Movement Abilities
All cool, but maybe you want to reserve the Fast Movement ability to only work in Natural areas, such as forests, plains, etc. It really fits the theme of the Ranger better, and someone as outdoorsy as a Ranger might get knocked off step in a place like a huge, sprawing city.

Natural Instict
What?! No Tremor Sense?!

Woodland Sprint
Love it.

Nature's Messengers is interesting, and it really reminds me of "Sojourn" :).
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Old 08-27-2009, 10:49 PM   Top  -  End  -  #17
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

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I'll be looking at your Ranger Variant today :P.
Appreciate it!

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Spells
I'm not sure if I'm crazy about Rangers having 1st Level spells. Part of the Lore that caused Rangers to get reduced spellcasting is that they aren't instantly at one with nature to the degree that they can call upon Her powers.
They don't get spells at 1st level unless they have a good Wisdom score for bonus spells, so I think that shows the greater difficulty rangers have with spellcasting. And mechanistically, I've always hated the fact that rangers and paladins can only cast 1 spell per day at level 7, when a cleric pulls off 6/5/4/3/2 and the druid gets 6/4/3/2/1. You only get 1 or 2 spells per day until level 5 anyway, so I don't think it really contradicts their flavor if rangers can cast so few minor tricks per day in the early levels.

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Favored Enemy
Your powers are all pretty cool, well thought out, and not ridiculously Over Powered. I like that. I'm not crazy about classifying Dwarves as small humanoids though. They're only like a foot shorter then the average human (4 feet-ish).
Again, this is mostly because of mechanics. The list of Small humanoids is short enough that I don't want it to be completely ignored. I also couldn't think of any other division of humanoids that makes sense and still have a roughly even division. I'd love to come up with an alternative though, but for now, I'm going to categorize dwarves as "close enough".

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Wild Empathy
Charisma to Wisdom makes no sense. Essentially, the Wild Empathy ability allows a Ranger to make Diplomacy checks with animals. Not only that, but you run the risk of your players dumping all their points into Wisdom. Especially if your Ranger takes the Zen Archery feat from Complete Warrior.
Fluff-wise, I think of it as communicating with animals using your greater understanding of nature. Mechanics-wise, it is because Charisma is generally ignored anyway on a ranger. You have a single ability that relies on Charisma, and it's not even that strong of a class feature. On the other hand, you need Strength for damage, Dexterity for attack and AC, Constitution for HP, Intelligence for skill points, and Wisdom for spellcasting. You were almost always better off ignoring Charisma entirely, which was a shame since then Wild Empathy is never used until you're high enough level that the Cha penalty isn't important.

I wouldn't worry about players putting everything into Wisdom just because of this; you still need very high Dexterity to even take most archery feats like Rapid Shot, so Dex is still important. If you want to deal more damage with composite bows, you need some Strength. Constitution is always necessary since everybody needs HP. Intelligence shouldn't be dumped because otherwise you won't have enough skill points. Really, it's still a very MAD class, but now Wild Empathy actually becomes useful.

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Bonus Feat
I don't think your version of the Ranger really needs a bonus feat every 3 levels, but that's just me. I can't want to see what you're gonna do to the Fighter if you're giving the Ranger all this :P.
It's to make up for the fact that archers and two-weapon fighters get completely shafted in 3.5. As an archer, you're basically required to have Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Greater Manyshot, not to mention all of the extremely helpful feats like Improved Precise Shot, Improved Rapid Shot, Improved Skirmish, Ranged Disarm, Ranged Sunder, Ranged Pin, etc. Two Weapon Fighting likewise needs a huge number of feats to be effective. The bonus feats really are important to let you even have a degree of customization left in your feats.

And as for fighter, I'm not touching that train wreck! Fighter doesn't have any class features, nor even much fluff for creating new ones. I really don't see how I can fix that class without basically building a new base class completely from scratch.

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Movement Abilities
All cool, but maybe you want to reserve the Fast Movement ability to only work in Natural areas, such as forests, plains, etc. It really fits the theme of the Ranger better, and someone as outdoorsy as a Ranger might get knocked off step in a place like a huge, sprawing city.
I was debating whether to limit it to natural areas or not when I added it, but decided not to. However, put that way, it does make more sense to limit that, so I'll change it.

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Natural Instict
What?! No Tremor Sense?!
With Blindsight, it just felt unnecessary. Besides, gotta leave something for Favored Enemy: Elemental.

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Originally Posted by Golden-Esque View Post
Woodland Hunter
Fun and fluffy. I like it.

Woodland Sprint
Love it.
Heh, actually, both of these two were picked off a WotC article on removing dead levels from PHB base classes (which, incidentally, called the monk a well-built class). I really liked the flavor of them, so I added them here.
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Old 08-28-2009, 08:23 PM   Top  -  End  -  #18
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

Okay, ranger, dragon shaman, and swashbuckler have all been edited based on suggestions. New thoughts?
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Old 08-29-2009, 01:06 PM   Top  -  End  -  #19
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Okay, ranger, dragon shaman, and swashbuckler have all been edited based on suggestions. New thoughts?
Swashbuckler:
  • I still think restricting Extra Granted Maneuver is a wise move balance-wise (and flavorful too), for now, but I could easily imagine that playtesting could prove me wrong and necessitate adding it back in.
  • Medium BAB: I don't like it. I like to think of the Swashbuckler being exceedingly accurate with his attacks. But I have to admit, it makes sense mechanically as a way to discourage Power Attacking and a balance to the two good saves the class now gets. So I don't like it, but I don't have a better suggestion for now.
  • Good Fort/Ref saves: Yeah, ok. I still think a poor Fortitude save, backed up by the Mind Over Body maneuver, could be very flavorful, but I understand that the Swashbuckler's random recovery method makes that a very risky tactic. Unless you wanted to homebrew a feat -- in place of Extra Granted Maneuver? -- that lets certain Maneuvers always be Granted.
  • But if Reflex save is Good, Grace shouldn't give a bonus to it anymore. Grace being a bonus to AC and Initiative should still be powerful enough, IMHO.
  • INT to Will saves seems very fitting. Again, though, kind of discourages the Swashbuckler from using Diamond Mind save-replacing Maneuvers as much as he could.
  • Dashing Strike is rather powerful on a per-encounter basis, for a class that already gets full maneuver progression. But maybe it's ok, with its restrictions ... I guess I wouldn't take it out without playtesting first. Is there any reason not to restrict it to one-handed (or light) weapons?
  • This class is still a ridiculously good one-level dip for many builds. Like, any Rogue.

Dragon Shaman

So, the original Dragon Shaman class, weak as it was, was IMHO very much designed to be a Healer/Support class (or "Leader" in the 4e lexicon). A class that could theoretically fill the Cleric's role. With the way you've given it full BAB, Martial Weapon Proficiency, and taken away all Charisma dependence, I can only assume that you're trying to shift its focus towards being a true Tank/Melee type class (or "Defender" in 4e terms).

If that's so, then you might as well be decisive about it. Take away the Touch of Vitality, and re-evaluate which Auras are still really appropriate. Auras in general are very Leader-like, IMHO, in spite of precedents set by WoW Paladins.

Personally, I'd rather see the Dragon Shaman class keep its focus on the Leader role, but actually do it without sucking.

Ranger

Thanks for listening to feedback about making the class less "cluttered" with minor abilities.

Overall I'm concerned that the new class is rather overpowered, if it has access to spells from Spell Compendium. A Spell-Compendium-wielding Ranger was already considered "just barely underpowered," and you've gone and improved the spellcasting progression, improved the Animal Companion, improved Favored Enemy, and improved Bonus Feat selection.

I definitely approve of consolidating the list of Favored Enemies down to a reasonable selection. The Humanoid classification still needs work, yeah, but the system is already a big improvement.

I didn't read all of the Favored Enemy type-specific effects carefully, I just skimmed; but I liked what I saw in general. Listing all of these effects sure makes the class long and complex, though; I don't suppose it would work to turn these special Favored Enemy effects into balanced Feats instead? Of course they would be added to the available Bonus Feat list.

Natural Instinct (Blindsight) is ... wow. Blindsight is a very powerful effect, and doesn't feel very Ranger-y to me. I think I'd like Blindsense much better. Weaker, yes, but still quite powerful really.

I love Natural Instinct (Foresight) as a capstone.
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Old 08-30-2009, 03:57 AM   Top  -  End  -  #20
Lilienthal
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

I've been looking into the Swashbuckler and Swordsage for a prefab character for one of my new players and your take on the Swashbuckler seems like what I had in mind for it, although I might just change the Swordsage about a bit instead. I'm still checking out all the maneuvers so I can't say much about your variant's balance in general.

However, I agree with Draz74 that having both a Reflex-bonus from Grace and a good base save make him a tad overpowered. It also feels a bit contrived, mechanics-wise. I'm not sure how the distinction between Swordsage and Swashbuckler works out now that both get Blade Magic, but it seems to me like it makes more sense for the latter to have a strong fortitude save (as per the RAW). I have no idea if this also works fluff-wise though. Good base Reflex and a Grace bonus could probably work if Fort and Will saves were bad.

I love the Dramatic abilities, especially the Dramatic Entry, the bonuses for puns in a feint and your wording of Dramatic Moment.


Now, as for your ranger, it seems like you need to be a bit more careful with the way you word some of its abilities. For instance, Blindsight lacks the "in a natural environment" clause although the description of Natural Instinct already makes this redundant (I also agree that Blindsense would be better, both balance- and fluff-wise).

I'm also confused by the abilities granted by Favored Enemy. It seems like some of these apply in general situations, while others only work against that type of enemy. I haven't studied them in great detail but that could make for a balance issue. It also seems like some of these abilities should only be used against a specific creature type but that you forgot to add that clause. Examples:
  • +6
  • Vermin: I'm not sure how you're going to make this work fluff-wise.
    +8
  • Construct: I could see how you might do extra damage against constructs like this, but how are you going to do Bludgeoning damage with regular arrows against humanoids?
    +10
  • Humanoid (Other): Autoconfirm criticals on medium creatures? That sounds wildly overpowered and has very little to do with fighting humanoids.
  • Vermin: I recommend rewording to "for each size category below small." A Giant shouldn't be getting bonuses on humans, even if he might call them vermin. I'm also a bit concerned about balance here versus Tiny and Fine critters.

In general, it seems like you also blurr the line between "experience fighting this type" and magical powers. From what I understand of the core mechanic, you receive bonuses to fighting these types of creatures because of your experience with them in the past or a devotion to destroying or fighting them. It doesn't make any sense that an Aberration's tentacles are suddenly half their length when they try to hit you, just because you killed a few of them in the past. The same goes for giving out elemental immunities and other abilities that make the monster's abilities weaker instead of making you stronger against them.

Finally, I'm considering changing the progression for Favored Enemy in my games. Basically, the every fifth level advancement would only determine maximum bonuses and selection of new types, while +1 or +2's could be distributed freely up to that limit every other level or so. I think the power level would be similar, but it helps spread out its advancement and gets rid of the annoyance that comes with selecting the order you want to take your Favored Types in.
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Old 09-01-2009, 12:25 PM   Top  -  End  -  #21
PId6
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

Sorry I'm taking a while to respond, been really busy lately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
I still think restricting Extra Granted Maneuver is a wise move balance-wise (and flavorful too), for now, but I could easily imagine that playtesting could prove me wrong and necessitate adding it back in.
Yeah, I'll see how that goes. It's fairly strong already so it really depends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
Medium BAB: I don't like it. I like to think of the Swashbuckler being exceedingly accurate with his attacks. But I have to admit, it makes sense mechanically as a way to discourage Power Attacking and a balance to the two good saves the class now gets. So I don't like it, but I don't have a better suggestion for now.
Yeah, that's pretty much my thought exactly. Mechanical convenience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
Good Fort/Ref saves: Yeah, ok. I still think a poor Fortitude save, backed up by the Mind Over Body maneuver, could be very flavorful, but I understand that the Swashbuckler's random recovery method makes that a very risky tactic. Unless you wanted to homebrew a feat -- in place of Extra Granted Maneuver? -- that lets certain Maneuvers always be Granted.
That's an interesting concept, though I'm not sure how to restrict it so that you don't just use it to grant your damage dealers rather than save maneuvers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
But if Reflex save is Good, Grace shouldn't give a bonus to it anymore. Grace being a bonus to AC and Initiative should still be powerful enough, IMHO.
Oversight; forgot to change that part in the post. That was not intended; fixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
INT to Will saves seems very fitting. Again, though, kind of discourages the Swashbuckler from using Diamond Mind save-replacing Maneuvers as much as he could.
Diamond Mind save maneuvers are a little too risky to rely on that much. That said, if you dump Int, you may still need Moment of Perfect Mind for Will saves. It's an option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
Dashing Strike is rather powerful on a per-encounter basis, for a class that already gets full maneuver progression. But maybe it's ok, with its restrictions ... I guess I wouldn't take it out without playtesting first. Is there any reason not to restrict it to one-handed (or light) weapons?
Good point, I'll do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
This class is still a ridiculously good one-level dip for many builds. Like, any Rogue.
Like I said, doesn't really bother me that much. A Swordsage is probably even better for dips because of Shadow Hand and gets very similar things. Mostly, I just rely on Gentlemens' Agreement to prevent too much casual dipping. And it's not like rogues don't need the help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
So, the original Dragon Shaman class, weak as it was, was IMHO very much designed to be a Healer/Support class (or "Leader" in the 4e lexicon). A class that could theoretically fill the Cleric's role. With the way you've given it full BAB, Martial Weapon Proficiency, and taken away all Charisma dependence, I can only assume that you're trying to shift its focus towards being a true Tank/Melee type class (or "Defender" in 4e terms).
Never really liked to think in terms of 4e roles, but I guess it's appropriate here. The problem is that it's pretty hard to make it a good "Leader" class without either A) make him boring to play, and/or B) make him overpowering. Just buffing his healing would turn him into a healbot, and that's never fun (for me at least), and buffing his auras can make him too strong if he's providing a constant +15 damage aura or something, and it still doesn't do much about the fun part.

The best "Leader" archetype that's still fun to play should utilize White Raven maneuvers, which is exactly what I did with the marshal. I really don't want to retread old ground with the dragon shaman, and the only other way I can think of to provide variety as well as a party support focus involves giving him spellcasting, and that's really not what I'm going for here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
If that's so, then you might as well be decisive about it. Take away the Touch of Vitality, and re-evaluate which Auras are still really appropriate. Auras in general are very Leader-like, IMHO, in spite of precedents set by WoW Paladins.
I don't like to shoehorn classes into specific roles though; I prefer just giving options. If someone wants to focus on combat with aura/healing support on the side, that's fine. If someone would rather be a healbot with decent melee ability when cornered, that works also.

On that note, I'm thinking about returning Touch of Vitality to Charisma-dependent, but powering it a little more. To do that though, I'm going to need some other things that Charisma would be good for besides just Touch of Vitality, so it doesn't become an easily dumped ability. Maybe something to do with auras or Dragon Ally?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
Overall I'm concerned that the new class is rather overpowered, if it has access to spells from Spell Compendium. A Spell-Compendium-wielding Ranger was already considered "just barely underpowered," and you've gone and improved the spellcasting progression, improved the Animal Companion, improved Favored Enemy, and improved Bonus Feat selection.
It may have been "just barely underpowered' if you optimize it well, but an unoptimized ranger is barely above useless, since he is utilizing the two weakest combat styles in the game. The old animal companion was quite bad at anything but flanking, and he was almost always feat-starved before. First and foremost, I want to make it decent right off the bat, without needing too much optimization to at least be playable.

I need playtesting to be sure, but it doesn't seem too strong compared to ToB and certainly not to casters. With skirmish, you're pretty much restricted to certain (very feat-intensive) methods of combat, like Manyshot and Bounding Assault, unless you manage to get some reliable form of swift-movement or something. The Favored Enemy bonuses generally aren't that strong except in specific instances, and the improved spellcasting progression probably just saves you money on a few extra Pearls of Power. The Bonus Feats give the biggest power boosts I think, and I'm reluctant to cut those since your combat styles are just too feat intensive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
I definitely approve of consolidating the list of Favored Enemies down to a reasonable selection. The Humanoid classification still needs work, yeah, but the system is already a big improvement.
Yeah, that was one of my biggest gripes with the old ranger. Also, a lot of categories were often auto-picks and most were almost always ignored (Outsider [Evil] and Undead, for example, versus Humanoid [Gnome] or Ooze). I tried to make up for that by consolidating the less-picked ones as well as make the special abilities for the rarer categories better.

And yeah, need a better split for humanoids. Not sure what would make sense, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
I didn't read all of the Favored Enemy type-specific effects carefully, I just skimmed; but I liked what I saw in general. Listing all of these effects sure makes the class long and complex, though; I don't suppose it would work to turn these special Favored Enemy effects into balanced Feats instead? Of course they would be added to the available Bonus Feat list.
It's not that complex; just pick a category and get the ability related to that category. It's definitely long though. I'm not sure what you mean by turning them into feats though; most of the abilities are too weak to be feats (immunity to Frightful Presence, for example).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
Natural Instinct (Blindsight) is ... wow. Blindsight is a very powerful effect, and doesn't feel very Ranger-y to me. I think I'd like Blindsense much better. Weaker, yes, but still quite powerful really.
I see what you mean. Yeah, that does make sense; I'll change it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
I love Natural Instinct (Foresight) as a capstone.
Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilienthal View Post
However, I agree with Draz74 that having both a Reflex-bonus from Grace and a good base save make him a tad overpowered. It also feels a bit contrived, mechanics-wise. I'm not sure how the distinction between Swordsage and Swashbuckler works out now that both get Blade Magic, but it seems to me like it makes more sense for the latter to have a strong fortitude save (as per the RAW). I have no idea if this also works fluff-wise though. Good base Reflex and a Grace bonus could probably work if Fort and Will saves were bad.
Yeah, that was an oversight; forgot to edit it in the post. Sorry about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilienthal View Post
I love the Dramatic abilities, especially the Dramatic Entry, the bonuses for puns in a feint and your wording of Dramatic Moment.
Heh, thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilienthal View Post
Now, as for your ranger, it seems like you need to be a bit more careful with the way you word some of its abilities. For instance, Blindsight lacks the "in a natural environment" clause although the description of Natural Instinct already makes this redundant (I also agree that Blindsense would be better, both balance- and fluff-wise).
It was already in the Natural Instinct description so I didn't add it into the Blindsight one. I can see the potential for confusion though, so I added it now, and switched to Blindsense instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilienthal View Post
I'm also confused by the abilities granted by Favored Enemy. It seems like some of these apply in general situations, while others only work against that type of enemy. I haven't studied them in great detail but that could make for a balance issue. It also seems like some of these abilities should only be used against a specific creature type but that you forgot to add that clause.
I wanted abilities that are related to the specific enemies but can also potentially be useful even outside that group. I tried to balance it so that the less commonly-seen creatures (like Vermin) get better/more general abilities while more common creatures get more specific ones.

And a lot of these are a bit of a stretch when it came to coming up with ideas, so suggestions are definitely welcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilienthal View Post
Examples:
  • +6
  • Vermin: I'm not sure how you're going to make this work fluff-wise.
    +8
  • Construct: I could see how you might do extra damage against constructs like this, but how are you going to do Bludgeoning damage with regular arrows against humanoids?
I'm guessing you mean the +8 bonus for Vermin? It would probably be something like you're so used to fighting creatures that use poison or disease that you develop herbal remedies that give you immunity to them. For construct, it would be just firing your arrows in a certain way or with a certain amount of force to make them bludgeon on impact rather than pierce. I didn't want any of them to be too restricted to one category, though they would be most useful against their own category.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilienthal View Post
+10
  • Humanoid (Other): Autoconfirm criticals on medium creatures? That sounds wildly overpowered and has very little to do with fighting humanoids.
  • Vermin: I recommend rewording to "for each size category below small." A Giant shouldn't be getting bonuses on humans, even if he might call them vermin. I'm also a bit concerned about balance here versus Tiny and Fine critters.
Autoconfirming doesn't seem overpowered; you still have to threaten a critical hit, and if you're attack bonus is high enough for that, then it probably will make a critical hit on average anyway. It's not much different from just a +10 to critical confirmation, and it does only come at level 20.

For Vermin, I wanted these to represent you using your learning of these creatures to expand into more generalized combat. So if you learn to fight Vermin very well, you should be able to generalize those methods for other smaller creatures. Vermin's abilities are usually more powerful than others because Vermin are so rarely encountered, so I need to give some incentive to make it a viable option.

As for balance, there are very very few high level creatures smaller than Small. And even if there are, they gain progressively higher attack bonuses for their size. A Fine creature gets +8 to attack; a Medium ranger gets +8 natural armor AC in response, just canceling out the bonus. It's not very high and again, it is a level 20 ability for a rarely seen creature type.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilienthal View Post
In general, it seems like you also blurr the line between "experience fighting this type" and magical powers. From what I understand of the core mechanic, you receive bonuses to fighting these types of creatures because of your experience with them in the past or a devotion to destroying or fighting them. It doesn't make any sense that an Aberration's tentacles are suddenly half their length when they try to hit you, just because you killed a few of them in the past. The same goes for giving out elemental immunities and other abilities that make the monster's abilities weaker instead of making you stronger against them.
The tentacles I was thinking was because you learn methods for dodging and evading them effectively so that they need to get closer to you to get through your evasive maneuvers. It was also because aberrations are a wide enough category that I couldn't think of anything better. Fire resistance was because you become more tolerant of fire damage after being exposed to it for so long, though I admit that fire immunity doesn't make much sense. Again, couldn't think of a good enough capstone there.

Would it help if I add fluff explanations before each ability? I didn't do it before because I thought it would just make that section longer and more involved than it already is, but I can do that if too many of them defy explanation. And I definitely need some help with new ideas to replace some of the sketchier abilities, since I want to avoid plain +stat type abilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilienthal View Post
Finally, I'm considering changing the progression for Favored Enemy in my games. Basically, the every fifth level advancement would only determine maximum bonuses and selection of new types, while +1 or +2's could be distributed freely up to that limit every other level or so. I think the power level would be similar, but it helps spread out its advancement and gets rid of the annoyance that comes with selecting the order you want to take your Favored Types in.
I like that idea. I'll look into it. Can you give a little more detail on how you're picking new types and how you're distributing the bonuses? Is it still a new Favored Enemy every 5 levels?
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Old 09-01-2009, 06:38 PM   Top  -  End  -  #22
Lilienthal
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by PId6 View Post
I'm guessing you mean the +8 bonus for Vermin? It would probably be something like you're so used to fighting creatures that use poison or disease that you develop herbal remedies that give you immunity to them. For construct, it would be just firing your arrows in a certain way or with a certain amount of force to make them bludgeon on impact rather than pierce. I didn't want any of them to be too restricted to one category, though they would be most useful against their own category.
Ah, no, I meant the +4 ability here. Swarms have these special abilities due to their structure, and it makes very little sense to be able to half-damage them with arrows for instance. Likewise, flanking also requires someone else to flank with you, who is not likely to have the same expertise at fighting vermin as you, which is terribly unintuitive.

Quote:
Autoconfirming doesn't seem overpowered; you still have to threaten a critical hit, and if you're attack bonus is high enough for that, then it probably will make a critical hit on average anyway. It's not much different from just a +10 to critical confirmation, and it does only come at level 20.
Hmm, I didn't keep the level requirement in mind here I suppose.

Quote:
The tentacles I was thinking was because you learn methods for dodging and evading them effectively so that they need to get closer to you to get through your evasive maneuvers. It was also because aberrations are a wide enough category that I couldn't think of anything better. Fire resistance was because you become more tolerant of fire damage after being exposed to it for so long, though I admit that fire immunity doesn't make much sense. Again, couldn't think of a good enough capstone there.
I can see how that might work, but that aspect of dodging doesn't really compare well to the standard implementation of it, that being that you have a chance to dodge, not a guarantee of doing so at a certain range. And while I understand the Poison Immunity from Vermin, I doubt you could build up a similar resistance to fire.

Quote:
Would it help if I add fluff explanations before each ability? I didn't do it before because I thought it would just make that section longer and more involved than it already is, but I can do that if too many of them defy explanation. And I definitely need some help with new ideas to replace some of the sketchier abilities, since I want to avoid plain +stat type abilities.
That would likely be a good idea for the finished product, and I'll see if I can come up with anything.

Quote:
I like that idea. I'll look into it. Can you give a little more detail on how you're picking new types and how you're distributing the bonuses? Is it still a new Favored Enemy every 5 levels?
It's still a very crude idea, but I can jot down the basics. Yes you pick a Favored Enemy at first level and every fifth level thereafter (5th, 10th, 15th and 20). The difference is that you no longer automatically upgrade your previously selected bonuses by +2 when you do so. You are instead able to distribute these bonuses freely amongst the enemy types you have selected, up to a maximum bonus per type depending on your level. The problem is now how to set up that progression. Your changes to the Favored Enemy mechanic give the ability a new power level, while I have a hard time estimating the same for the standard ability.

At 20th level your combined bonuses will total +30, divided into +10, +8, +6, +4 and +2. Your maximum bonus will either remain the same as it normally is (+4 at fifth level, +6 at 10th level, etc.) or it might change depending on how fast you want it to scale. The same goes for the amount of bonuses you get per level. Thinking that out will require a deal of math, which I'll save for tomorrow, since I need my rest. I'll think it through some more at a later date.

Also, if you change up the way bonuses are handed out, there's nothing stopping you from changing the rest of the mechanic. One variant would be to give no bonuses to attack etc., but to work purely with conditional special abilities or stat bonuses. Although such a thing would likely require a lot of balancing.
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Old 09-08-2009, 02:34 AM   Top  -  End  -  #23
PId6
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

Haven't had time to fluff the ranger favored enemies yet, but I did get this done. Thoughts?

Assassin



Requirements
To qualify to become an assassin, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.

Skills: 4 ranks in Craft (Poisonmaking), 8 ranks in Hide, 8 ranks in Move Silently.
Feats: Shadow Blade.
Special: Sneak Attack +1d6 or Assassin’s Stance.

Level
Bab
Fort
Ref
Will
Maneuvers Known
Maneuvers Readied
Stances Known
Special
1st
+0
0
2
0
1
1
0
Poison Use, Sneak Attack +1d6, Death Attack, Cunning Shadows
2nd
+1
0
3
0
1
0
1
Uncanny Dodge
3rd
+2
1
3
1
1
0
0
Poison Resistance +2, Masterful Brew
4th
+3
1
4
1
1
1
0
Sneak Attack +2d6
5th
+3
1
4
1
1
0
1
Improved Uncanny Dodge
6th
+4
2
5
2
1
0
0
Poison Resistance +4, Rapid Toxin
7th
+5
2
5
2
1
1
0
Sneak Attack +3d6
8th
+6
2
6
2
1
0
0
Hide in Plain Sight
9th
+6
3
6
3
1
0
1
Poison Immunity, Lingering Brew
10th
+7
3
7
3
1
1
0
Sneak Attack +4d6, Poison Cloud

Hit Die: d6

Class Skills (6 + Int modifier per level): Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).

Class Features
Spoiler
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Old 09-08-2009, 05:24 AM   Top  -  End  -  #24
PId6
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

Oh, and here's eldritch knight as well, now with actual class features.

Eldritch Knight



Requirements
To qualify to become an eldritch knight, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.

Base Attack Bonus: +3.
Weapon Proficiency: Proficient with all martial weapons.
Feats: Combat Casting.
Spells: Able to cast 2nd level arcane spells.

Level
Bab
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
Spellcasting
1st
+1
2
0
2
Martial Spell (Standard) 1/encounter
-
2nd
+2
3
0
3
Armored Caster (Light Armor)
+1
3rd
+3
3
1
3
Improved Combat Casting
+1
4th
+4
4
1
4
Martial Spell (Standard) 2/encounter
+1
5th
+5
4
1
4
Armored Caster (Shields)
+1
6th
+6
5
2
5
Greater Combat Casting
+1
7th
+7
5
2
5
Martial Spell (Full) 2/encounter
-
8th
+8
6
2
6
Armored Caster (Medium Armor)
+1
9th
+9
6
3
6
Perfect Combat Casting
+1
10th
+10
7
3
7
Martial Spell (Full) 3/encounter
+1

Hit Die: d8

Class Skills (2 + Int modifier per level): Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Swim (Str).

Class Features
Spoiler
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Old 09-12-2009, 09:46 PM   Top  -  End  -  #25
Mman497
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

Good job on these classes, the dragon shaman and marshal needed some real love.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PId6 View Post
Martial Spell: Once per encounter, when you make a standard action attack, you may cast a spell with casting time of one standard action as a swift action. This spell may be cast either before or after the attack, though you must declare that you are using this ability beforehand.
Is this like the Duskblade's ability or does it apply to most arcane spells? I've played with Duskblades before and they are hindered by the touch spell limitation.
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Old 09-12-2009, 10:00 PM   Top  -  End  -  #26
PId6
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

Thanks!

It applies to all spells, so it's basically a conditional Quicken that applies only when you make attacks. The Duskblade ability has the advantage that you can use your touch spells multiple times in a full attack, but is limited by Duskblade's small spell list. I didn't want to copy that here mostly because that can get very broken very fast if you start applying better spells to your full attacks, like Poison or Shivering Touch.
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Old 09-16-2009, 08:33 AM   Top  -  End  -  #27
Averagedog
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

Hello there, I looked at the Arcane Archer and the Dragon Shaman as those two were the only ones that interests me at the moment.

Your Arcane Archer build is incredibly awesome looking, but severely unbalanced because of 2 of its abilities.

Versatile Enchantments and Quiver of Magic.

The Quiver of Magic ability is totally unbalanced namely because it is possible to literally add 8D6 fire damage through scorching ray to all of your attacks in a given round as long as you have the spell slot to cast it with. There are many other good ranged touch spells that can be exploited as well. I wouldn't object to like twice a round, but expending 1 spell slot for all your, at least 4, attacks late game is pretty silly.

Versatile Enchantments also needs one stipulation. Say that any magical enhancements from a bow does not stack with the enhancement + x ability. I was told that as the wording of versatile enchantments stands now, you can conceivably get a + 5 bow and convert all the enhance arrow abilities to something else. Think of what could be done to exploit this if its not fixed.

As for the Dragon Shaman, They are meant more to be a defense and support monkey with healing touch and ranged breathe weapon attacks. I would honestly restrict their proficiencies to certain martial weapons, decrease the HD to 10 and decrease the BAB back to 3/4. If you really feel like making it a front line fighter you will have to remove the abilities that make a Dragon Shaman a Dragon Shaman to do so and balance things out. i.e. Touch of Vitality and the Breathe Weapon.

I do however like your change with Touch of Vitality to make it fully dependant on CON. If you decide the change Dragon Shaman to be support again my advice, if you want to make Dragon Shaman more effective, is to increase the dragon shaman's effective healing pool by multiplying it by 4 x class level rather than 2 x class level. To Eliminate the possibilities of Bomb heals that make clerics obsolete, Make the dragon shaman heal as if it is casting Cure X wounds at the appropriate cleric level. The Amount it heals is taken from the healing pool and never exceeds it. I would also make this healing available sooner and divide the healing conditions where appropriate at level 6 and 11.

The Aura is fine as it currently stands.
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Old 09-16-2009, 08:43 AM   Top  -  End  -  #28
Kobold-Bard
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

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By god I love your classes, first the Dragon Disciple and now this

Any plans to recreate the Mystic Theurge?
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Old 09-16-2009, 12:24 PM   Top  -  End  -  #29
Averagedog
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

One other thing, are you really sure that Dragon Shamans should get access to Dragon Ally? I mean I'm sure it could be useful if the dragon shaman has money it cannot use any time soon and is stranded on a desert island, but as long as the Dragon Shaman has communications lets say "elsewhere" the Dragon Shaman could just send word to nearby kingdoms th at it is looking to find the services of a dragon for the Dragon's profit. I would honestly either remove that ability altogether and create a capstone that basically does the Greater Dragon Ally once a week because by the time the party is 20th level they are pretty much either overwealthed, or could create a business to generate wealth to find the services of Dragons with practical ease.

Something else I've been kind of wondering about this class lately. Dragon Shamans slowly become more Dragony because they essentially worship dragons and want to become like them. Dragon Disciples somehow become Half Dragons and gain the Dragon type if I remember correctly. So, why don't Dragong Shamans have a Draconic Apotheosis anyways? It makes more sense to me to have something like that rather than Dragon Ally.
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Old 09-16-2009, 01:25 PM   Top  -  End  -  #30
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Default Re: [3.5] Revising classes for fun and balance-ish (new Marshal, Swashbuckler, and mo

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Hello there, I looked at the Arcane Archer and the Dragon Shaman as those two were the only ones that interests me at the moment.
Thanks for taking the time to review! Let's see if I can address some of your concerns.

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The Quiver of Magic ability is totally unbalanced namely because it is possible to literally add 8D6 fire damage through scorching ray to all of your attacks in a given round as long as you have the spell slot to cast it with. There are many other good ranged touch spells that can be exploited as well. I wouldn't object to like twice a round, but expending 1 spell slot for all your, at least 4, attacks late game is pretty silly.
It only works on touch-range attacks, not rays, so Scorching Ray won't work here. Some of the best ones to use are Vampiric Touch and Shocking Grasp (and Shivering Touch, but hopefully that's banned anyway since it's absolutely broken), which isn't any different from the Duskblade's ability.

In addition, these are no longer touch attacks since you're using arrows to deliver them, so your chances of hitting with each shot probably aren't that great, compared to touch attacks. The damage isn't nearly that high when you take all those factors into account, and it isn't anything classes like Duskblade can't do. I'm more worried about using spells like Irresistible Dance along with it though, but that's 8th level and Mind Affecting so it shouldn't be too bad when you're so high up.

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Versatile Enchantments also needs one stipulation. Say that any magical enhancements from a bow does not stack with the enhancement + x ability. I was told that as the wording of versatile enchantments stands now, you can conceivably get a + 5 bow and convert all the enhance arrow abilities to something else. Think of what could be done to exploit this if its not fixed.
One of the biggest problems with the old Arcane Archer is that he can't get special abilities on his arrows (without his class feature going to waste), which is something that every other archer can have besides him. And besides, before, you could just as easily use a +5 arrow and just have special abilities on your bow, and they stack just as well (though with less versatility). This just lets you reverse things if you want to. I don't see that much potential for abuse here that you couldn't already do before, and a normal archer can't do as well.

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As for the Dragon Shaman, They are meant more to be a defense and support monkey with healing touch and ranged breathe weapon attacks. I would honestly restrict their proficiencies to certain martial weapons, decrease the HD to 10 and decrease the BAB back to 3/4. If you really feel like making it a front line fighter you will have to remove the abilities that make a Dragon Shaman a Dragon Shaman to do so and balance things out. i.e. Touch of Vitality and the Breathe Weapon.
I agree that they were meant for support, but the problem is that they weren't good and they weren't fun. Giving them better combat ability is meant to allow them to have more options, in order to be able to contribute in various different ways if necessary. I would love to make him more support-focused if I can, but that's only if I can find some other way to give the class more options and keep it fun to play.

The d12 is mostly for flavor reasons, since dragons get d12 as do dragon disciples. It doesn't really make that much difference besides a little extra HP, so it seems harmless.

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I do however like your change with Touch of Vitality to make it fully dependant on CON. If you decide the change Dragon Shaman to be support again my advice, if you want to make Dragon Shaman more effective, is to increase the dragon shaman's effective healing pool by multiplying it by 4 x class level rather than 2 x class level. To Eliminate the possibilities of Bomb heals that make clerics obsolete, Make the dragon shaman heal as if it is casting Cure X wounds at the appropriate cleric level. The Amount it heals is taken from the healing pool and never exceeds it. I would also make this healing available sooner and divide the healing conditions where appropriate at level 6 and 11.
Problem is, in my opinion, playing a healbot isn't fun. That's the problem with most pure support-types, like the old marshal and dragon shaman, and even core bard. You stand around giving your aura/song, and watch your allies beat the enemy, dropping healing spells/touches when necessary. I would much rather have a class that can do something besides breathe once, heal for 1d4 rounds, breathe again, heal again, breathe more. Currently, the only idea I have with that is combat or spellcasting, and I don't want to make this a spellcaster. Better ideas are welcome though.

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Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
By god I love your classes, first the Dragon Disciple and now this

Any plans to recreate the Mystic Theurge?
Thanks!

Probably not. There are plenty of mystic theurge rewrites on this very board, and I don't feel like I can bring anything new to the table.

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Originally Posted by Averagedog View Post
One other thing, are you really sure that Dragon Shamans should get access to Dragon Ally? I mean I'm sure it could be useful if the dragon shaman has money it cannot use any time soon and is stranded on a desert island, but as long as the Dragon Shaman has communications lets say "elsewhere" the Dragon Shaman could just send word to nearby kingdoms th at it is looking to find the services of a dragon for the Dragon's profit. I would honestly either remove that ability altogether and create a capstone that basically does the Greater Dragon Ally once a week because by the time the party is 20th level they are pretty much either overwealthed, or could create a business to generate wealth to find the services of Dragons with practical ease.
Huh? I'm not sure what's your objection here. He doesn't need it because he can get the same thing elsewhere? It's probably not easy to just find a dragon when you want it without help, and you are getting a discount with the class ability, which probably makes it a lot easier than if you're hiring one normally. There's also the issue that if you find one normally, there's no guarantee that they'd help, while this does guarantee it. It doesn't seem harmful to have this, since it's thematically appropriate (calling on the aid of your totem dragon) and potentially useful. I mean, sorcerers and wizards get it for a reason, so it has to have some use. The cost isn't that high for a high level character, and you can reduce it to even lower if you have good social skills.

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Originally Posted by Averagedog View Post
Something else I've been kind of wondering about this class lately. Dragon Shamans slowly become more Dragony because they essentially worship dragons and want to become like them. Dragon Disciples somehow become Half Dragons and gain the Dragon type if I remember correctly. So, why don't Dragong Shamans have a Draconic Apotheosis anyways? It makes more sense to me to have something like that rather than Dragon Ally.
I think part of the reason that dragon disciples get it while dragon shamans don't is because dragon disciples are suppose to have dragon blood inside them, while dragon shamans don't necessarily have it. But it does make some sense though, so I might grant it at 20th level, but I'm not sure the stat boosts are appropriate here. Stat boosts are generally given only by PrCs, so I don't know if I want this class to give them.
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